507th Weapons Records Missing

El Paso Times | 17 Sept. 2003 | Laura Cruz

[CyberCowboy777]

How can I take you seriously?

Is that tag line going to stay long! lol

[Chad Fairbanks]

Only until the next Taglinus Free Republicus, I guess. ;0)

[91B]

The wind blows constantly around An Nasiriyah and the dust that it carries with it is very fine (powdery even) which makes it extremely difficult to properly maintain your personal weapon. I think this contributed more to the maintenance problems experienced by the 507th than poor training.

[Shooter 2.5]

The only weapon that might be from the Viet Nam era would be the M-60.

It ain't your Daddy's M-16 anymore.

[Chad Fairbanks]

Oh, come on. Riding around in a HumVee means you are not necessarily out in the dust - and with all the down time while riding around, it would be an ideal time to clean your weapon - a little bumpy, but not all THAT hard.

Secondly, a simple condom placed over the end of your rifle barrel will keep any dirt or dust out.

Bottom line, there is NO excuse for never maintaining your weapon. Never.

But, that's just the opinion of someone who would want to stay alive and thus would make it a priority.

[Newbomb Turk]

I would be a hell of a lot more interested in the records of small arms training that was or was not preformed prior to deployment.

It is not unusual for non combat units to receive only familarization fire and virtually no instruction. ( 30 rounds per soldier per year )

Just got an E-Mail from a friend in a transportation unit in Iraq who said after 6 months he finally got to zero his weapon and practice for weapons qualification.

[91B]

I'm telling you the dust and sand is freakin' unbeleivable (but, hey, what do I know? I was only up there for seven weeks). In ten minutes you were covered and any oily spot on your weapon was turning brown. I suspect that most of these troopers had their weapons pointed downrange while they were driving up MSR Tampa (more or less like most American interstates) and didn't notice how filthy they were getting until it was too late.

Secondly, very few troops were (or for that matter are) keeping their weapons covered with a condom (they are kind of a rare comodity). I saw a few who had rigged a brown t-shirt around the muzzles and down to the ejector port, but that isn't practical in combat.

[Chief_Joe]

Oh, come on. Riding around in a HumVee means you are not necessarily out in the dust - and with all the down time while riding around, it would be an ideal time to clean your weapon

I read the Army's official report on the attack on the 507th. Below is a full account of the actions PFC Lynch took during the ambush.

 

 

 

 

[Chad Fairbanks]

Well, I was never in Nasariyah, so I wouldn't know the local climate. I can relate to the desert dust though, but as I said - my weapon was a priority and ANY downtime was spent maintaining it. And I wasn't on the 'front lines'. I just can't for the life of me understand the mentality of any soldier or sailor or airman or marine or whatever who would allow their weapon to get dirty and not notice it - nor can I understand the mentality of any NCO or Officer who would not make this a priority for those under their command...

[Chad Fairbanks]

(IF I laugh, would that be construed as bashing PFC Lynch, or would my laughter reflect the sadness of the whole darn situation?).

[deport]

The U.S. Army on Tuesday revealed that all records and documents about the weapons that jammed during the March 23 ambush that led to the death of nine Fort Bliss soldiers were destroyed in the Iraqi attack and that there is no way to trace the weapons' histories.

The Army, responding to an El Paso Times request under the Freedom of Information Act, said any official information about the weapons used by Fort Bliss' 507th Maintenance Company was lost on a supply truck taken into combat.

I can understand any item on the trucks in the convoy being destroyed during the attack, etc.... But would it be normal to have that type info carried with you into a field deployment? Wouldn't those type records be kept at a more permanent hqtrs location or are they saying the hdqtrs was being moved?

[mtbopfuyn]

Oh, come on. Riding around in a HumVee means you are not necessarily out in the dust - and with all the down time while riding around, it would be an ideal time to clean your weapon - a little bumpy, but not all THAT hard. Secondly, a simple condom placed over the end of your rifle barrel will keep any dirt or dust out. Bottom line, there is NO excuse for never maintaining your weapon. Never. But, that's just the opinion of someone who would want to stay alive and thus would make it a priority.

Exactly. You pegged it. There is no excuse. I find it hard to believe that nearly each and every single make and model didn't function. There's more to this story than is getting reported, most likely they were surprised and out numbered.

[Chad Fairbanks]

Surprised and outnumbered, I can understand. But if anyone can show me reports of darn near entire units elsewhere in Iraq having these kinds of weapons problems, I'll shut up about it - until then, I'm going to blame irresponsible leadership, and unmotivated soldiers as the cause of the tragedy...

[Chief_Joe]

Neither and both, but let us not digress. 

[piasa]

What are the chances that a rear echelon maintence unit would do that? I mean, those guys were so far to the rear I never would have heard of them, much less see them. If not for bad navigation they never would have been near the fighting.

That's no excuse.

[Chad Fairbanks]

Exactly.

[HoustonCurmudgeon]

Where would other records be? Wouldn't there be some history on each gun or gun lot--manufacturer, date of purchase, circulation, etc.?

.... and that would tell you what about this matter?

[91B]

I don't know all the particulars of what happened to the 507th (saw the Army's report on Hackworth's webpage and scanned over it) but I would guess that they made a long drive up Tampa and most were more concerned with scanning the horizon looking for haji than taking care of their weapon. I would also guess that the unit NCOs were probably wondering where in the hell they were and why they weren't on the planned route.

[Chad Fairbanks]

Could be. I received some advice from my father (1/5 1st Cavalry -Airmobile, Vietnam 68-69) and the advice he gave me has proven to be the best advice I could have ever received:

"When you feel like sleeping, clean your weapon first"

"When awake, take turns watching, so everyone can inspect and clean their weapon"

"On that helicoptor ride to an LZ, whether it's expected to be hot or not, inspect your weapon and clean it if necessary. Hell, clean it if it ISN'T necessary. It occupies the mind and keeps you from worrying too much."

I've lived by that, and found out myself he was right. A clean weapon IS your best friend, and will help keep you alive.

[Chief_Joe]

I find it hard to believe that nearly each and every single make and model didn't function. There's more to this story than is getting reported...

Bingo! Now you are on to something. The report on this attack is fascinating, sad, and tragic, yet it is also very enlightening. When reading a report like this, it sometimes takes a skillful and experienced eye to see what's been put in, what's been left out, and what is left for the viewer to fill in the gaps. At least it does guide one to where he/she should ask the relevant questions.