507th Weapons Records Missing

El Paso Times | 17 Sept. 2003 | Laura Cruz

[91B]

Very good advice. I'm not trying to make excuses for the 507th, but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[CheneyChick]

Lead from the front.....

[Chad Fairbanks]

I'm willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, too, but when the official report even says that weapons failure, due to lack of maintanance, well, I'll go with that.

Why there was lack of maintanance, though, is the question.

[Chief_Joe]

I would also guess that the unit NCOs were probably wondering where in the hell they were and why they weren't on the planned route.

I don't agree. From what I read, the actions and performance of the NCOs of this unit  were commendable, especially those of 1SG Dowdy. I believe they failed to keep their weapons cleaned properly due to lack of man power. The 1SG led a group that recovered every broken down vehicle in the convoy on its march to each check point. Bringing up the rear, he repeatedly had to direct the CO back on course. He did this while still completing the mission to fully support the air defense unit.

[91B]

I wasn't criticizing the actions of the NCOs in the unit. Instead I was offering a reason why they might have been distracted from doing proper PMCS on their weapons. And at one point they got disasterously lost (BTW-MSR Tampa goes right to an exit that leads straight to Talil Air Base and would have given the unit easy access to An Nasiriyah by what was probably by then a secure route-somebody screwed up) and I don't doubt that the unit NCOs were aware of that and were trying to figure out what was going on.

[#3Fan]

Who knows if they have actually been destroyed? But if they havn't, I bet our good buddy #3fan would be willing to destroy those records, in order to spare PFC Lynch from having to deal with the media...

You equate destroying records with telling the media a patient has amnesia to give her time to recover? Your judgment is very lacking.

[Chad Fairbanks]

But... but... destroying records would be 'covert actions' to keep the media off the backs of Lynch, so it should be acceptable to you, right? isn't that what you said?

[#3Fan]

But... but... destroying records would be 'covert actions' to keep the media off the backs of Lynch, so it should be acceptable to you, right? isn't that what you said?

I said covert action is moral to protect the good. If covert action is used in this case to cover up the irresponsible, then it's not moral. Good vs irresponsible.

By the way, I'm not saying anyone was irresponsible in this case nor that any destruction of documents took place here, I'm simply defending my belief that covert action is moral when protecting the good from the not so good. We got some people here making possible false accusations on little evidence, making assumptions that may not be true. It could be that driving all day on a dusty road will kick up more fine particles than riding in a troop carrier on virgin landscape. Those of us that live in the country know the difference between driving an off-road vehicle on a dirt road that is well traveled and and has a thick layer of ground up dust on it from driving through a field that hasn't been ground down by high traffic. The difference in the amount of dust kicked up is exponential, the dust much more fine. We shouldn't condemn this CO until we know the facts surrounding the particulars of this case.

[Chad Fairbanks]

Well, I read the official report - have you read it yet? Very interesting stuff, re: the CO...

[#3Fan]

Some of it. Like 91B, I'd like to know more about the dust.

[Travis McGee]

The maintenance company didn't maintain their weapons, and a rag tag band of the enemy defeated them with inferior weapons. Plus, the 507's captain ran away.

Did you read what Hackworth said about this in his recent column? He said it was a disgrace, and it would never have happened to a USMC maintenane company, never.

And Hack was Army.

[Chad Fairbanks]

The dust is a smokescreen. Nothing more.

[Squantos]

These days REMF's need to know they ain't anymore. Attitude of "in the rear with the gear" is dead and done when no real established "FEBA" is in place IMHO. Even then those leaders in support units endanger their units if at least 50% of their training is not divided on task to be performed and basic infantry tactics . Take care of all yer tools of the trade, train as you fight and work or die a horrible death and make your loved ones anguish over what you, your superiors , your equipment as issued or the field commanders did or didn't do right.

Simple rule , follow it.

Stay Safe !

[#3Fan]

The dust is a smokescreen. Nothing more.

Who is using it as a smokescreen? Maybe someone is using it as a smokescreen, if they are I haven't seen it and would like to see that information. I only mention the road dust as a possibilty to why so many weapons jammed. If it turns out that there was no more dust encountered by the 507th than was encountered anywhere else than it can be eliminated as a cause to the high failure rate of the weapons. I haven't seen any claims made as to the dust by the person's involved yet. If there has been claims made by the person's involved with the 507th, could you link me to them?

[ApesForEvolution]

There's a great story behind that 'gun oil'. Ever heard it?

[Feckless]

Strike Deep (in the enemy's rear).
Sorry, leftover from my 9ID days.....

[jaykay]

I read the Army's official report on the attack on the 507th. Below is a full account of the actions PFC Lynch took during the ambush.



Is this another Lynch-bashin' thread? Do you have a 'full account' for each member of the 507th? Is Lynch the only one who did this:



...If so, then why did the 507th take so many casualties? Again, you lay the blame on Lynch. As I said earlier, 'If only she really was the heroic girl Rambo the Wash. Post said she was, then she could have won the battle all by herself with her bare hands.' Why even bring Lynch up on this thread? Isn't there enough about her in the thousands of posts in the threads about her book, tv interviews, etc... Why the obsession with bringing up Lynch every time a story about the blunderous 507th is published. Was she the commander of the 507th?

Reply in advance to everyone who is going to post: 'cause she got all that media attention and a book deal she gotta git all da cidizizm tooo... So, by your logic, every time the D.C. Sniper case is ever discussed in the future, someone will have to mention Big Cheif Moose, because he got press and a book deal, every time the 9/11 attacks are discussed, someone will have to mention Lisa Beemer because she got more attention that other widows and a book deal, every time any topic is discussed, if someone involved was involved in a media circus and got a book deal, they have to be brought into the conversation, regardless of the relevance to the current subject. Yeah, that makes sense.

[jaykay]

Rather than try to figure out how everything was all Jessica Lynch's fault, why not pay attention to the weirdest statement in the article:

Ruben Estrella, father of 18-year-old Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, from El Paso, said he no longer believes anything the Army tells him.

"They told me that my son was shot in the head, and now they are saying that he was struck by a tank," he said. "I think the Army or the government is hiding something, but sooner or later the truth will be told."

Missing records, changing causes of death, what's next? Really, what? Oh, I know: Maybe Jessica Lynch shot him in the head but her gun was jammed so she had to run him over with a tank. Oh, wait, I forgot, all she did during the episode was:

[AAABEST]

I've got to wonder what's going on here, as I hear a lot of this type of thing going on.

When I was in (not even that long ago) there was no such thing as a "lost" weapon. Our entire battalion stayed in the feild (Hoensfeld) for an extra three days once looking for a weapon some idiot lost in the mud there.

500 pissed off guys staying deployed to find a single M-16.

The Jesse Lynch thing was disturbing too. A clean weapon was mandatory, if any one of us had one that was inoperable or uncared for we got that thing stuck up our asses.

[Ispy4u]

Well you did it now.

Criticize the 507th for anything and the defend Lynch to the death crew shows up. Sheesh, it's obvious to anyone with a lick of real military experience that the reason the weapons jammed was failure to properly maintain. 3ID and the Marines had functioning weapons, I saw it live on Fox News.

People need to accept the facts of life, as your daddy said Chad (somewhat), a clean weapon will save your life, a dirty weapon will get you killed.