Kennedy/Kerry:"If the bishops won't do anything about that, don't come to me. It's their problem."

FIRST THINGS ^ | October 2003 | Richard John Neuhaus

[jocon307]

"I do know that Joseph P. Kennedy got an annulment (maybe 10 years ago) after a long marriage with 2 children."

Is this the guy who got killed skiing? If so, his ex-wife was fighting the annulment tooth & nail, and was prepared to go "all the way to Rome", or so I heard. And she wasn't even a Catholic, but an Episcopalian. I guess she thought the ex-hubby was just full of cr*p. But, of course, it was all moot when he died.

[dangus]

The U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops (USCCB), under Bernadin's rule, became a blantantly apostate, and left-wing organization, virtually indistinguishable from the National Council of Churches (NCC). (The NCC was the brainchild of KGB operatives. This isn't tinfoil hat stuff -- Readers' Digest had a good article surveying the history, but I forget the author and date. Early '90s)

The USCCB frequently got into leftist political issues of which the Magisterium has no authority on, including opposing tax cuts, blaming Reagen for the millions of homeless Carter dumped on the street, and most wretchedly, calling for unilateral disarmament. (The Pope stepped in to modify the original Arms Control document.) They had precious little to say about Catholic politicians like Ted Kennedy and Geraldine Ferraro supporting abortion "rights." While frequently praising Democratic (and pro-choice) politicians for their work to reward mothers for living in sin, etc., they never once spoke positively of Reagen for ending the nightmare of the atheist Soviet empire, or opposing abortion.

Bernadin continued the policy of his predecessor in endorsing the New American Bible, which espouses apostasy on every page. (The miracle of loaves and fishes didn't really happen! The battle of Jericho was allegorical! Jesus *couln't* have predicted the fall of the Temple; it was added by anti-simitic evangelists!)

Meanwhile, he encouraged groups which argued for legitimizing homosexuality and abortion; he implied uncertainty about the morality of birth control; he filled the nation's episcopate with weak, sinful man; he was a close friend of pedophiles and perverts; and he was the cheif promulgator of the Americanist heresy of "cafeteria Catholicism".

Measuring evil by not only malevolence, but also the possession of the power to implement wickedness, he was quite possibly the most evil man in the history of the U.S. Catholic Church.

[dangus]

>>If you disagree, please explain why Kennedy's can be so pro-abortion without repercussion, and how they can get divorced (excuse me, annulled) so easily.

In all fairness, I *love* the grounds for which they granted Joe Kennedy's annulment: Mental incapacity. He got the annulment, but it destroyed him politically. As much as I loathed him, Cardinal Law occasionally got it right.

[ninenot]

An excellent summation. Rembert Weakland was a disciple of Bernardin--and operated in exactly the same way, usually with different issues. Weakland was the "liturgy" guy, and dabbled in economics, poorly, e.g.

[ninenot]

Measuring evil by not only malevolence, but also the possession of the power to implement wickedness, he was quite possibly the most evil man in the history of the U.S. Catholic Church.

Thus also spaketh Malachi Martin.

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

I knew he was theologically liberal, his "seamless garment" is enough to see that, but sounds like he was loony left. Does he have any writings that would seem to indicate heterodox sentiments/leanings (love physical, documented evidence).

[dangus]

>> Whether an excommunication is accompanied by public bells and whistles doesn't affect the nature of excommunication.

Well, yeah, but if we're talking about private matters, Ted can burn in hell. Excommunicating him in that sense hardly adds to the penalty, ya think?

[TotusTuus]

The old "Kennedy's-get-annulments-cause-they-have-money-blah, blah, blah" statement.

I remember a Priest saying it succinctly. People like the Kennedy's and Sinatra were granted "late" annulments because they lived such screwed up lives.

[dangus]

Read the NAB footnotes; read the 1st draft of the USCCB's anti-nuke platform; and look up the web pages of these groups which have been mentionned. He was very smart not to directly speak heresy, *but* he provided material aid and support to every heretical group in the country.

[Ann Archy]

You aren't wrong....sadly. Cardinal Law is paying for being LIBERAL and attaching himself to these pro-abortion...pro-homo powers.

[Incorrigible]

What we have here, is a failure, to excommunicate!

[Desdemona]

No, Michael Kennedy was the one who died skiing.

But, if the wife fighting the annulment was Episcopalian - that works in his favor, not hers. It depends on the circumstances.

[Desdemona]

I remember a Priest saying it succinctly. People like the Kennedy's and Sinatra were granted "late" annulments because they lived such screwed up lives.

True, but in Ted Kennedy's case, it was never a marriage. Joan was a fruitcake and really, they never should have been allowed to marry.

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

I never really had a problem with the NAB. Probably because I never read the footnotes. I will have to look at them. I know the translation is poor, but I tend to feel that any translation takes away from the original. Someday I'll get around to buying a Vulgate, but my Greek is too poor to actually sit down and read the Greek. I'll have to settle for Latin, and that'll just take me forever.

[dangus]

I like the Jerusalem Bible.

[potlatch]

Joan was a fruitcake and really, they never should have been allowed to marry

I never thought of her as a fruitcake in the early years. I believed he drove her to drink!

Having grown up in Catholic school, I never heard of alcoholism as being grounds for an annulment. We were taught that marriage was a Sacrament involving lifelong commitment 'for better or worse'.

[Aquinasfan]

I forget his "reason" but it seemed totally trivial to me -- yet he got the annulment with no trouble (Cardinal Law assisting).

I can't argue the facts of this case. But in principle, abuses can occur in the annulment process. The Church doesn't regard the findings of a tribunal to be infallible. However, a good practicing Catholic is obligated to abide by the decision of a tribunal, and the Church teaches that a person who abides by an incorrect finding of a tribunal will not be considered to have sinned.

[Aquinasfan]

I remember a Priest saying it succinctly. People like the Kennedy's and Sinatra were granted "late" annulments because they lived such screwed up lives.

The tribunal only considers the facts leading up to and including the wedding. What happens afterwards is generally irrelevant since what the tribunal seeks to determine is whether a valid wedding/marriage took place.

These annulments were probably "late" because they were applied for many years after the wedding. But the timing is irrelevant, since what matters is whether a valid wedding/marriage took place.

[Desdemona]

It's not alcoholism itself that is grounds, it's failure to address an addiction that gets in the way of the marriage. I know more than one person who was granted annulment with this as the leading cause of a whole lot of other problems.

I know one woman who was married to an ex-priest, who left the priesthood for her, and then left her for another woman who was granted annulment based on his instability.

I know of any number of marriages annulled when one side or the other wouldn't have children. That's automatic grounds.

There's any number of things that are grounds. Abuse is. Inability to form a marriage relationship. The problem is proving it.

[TotusTuus]

These annulments were probably "late" because they were applied for many years after the wedding. But the timing is irrelevant, since what matters is whether a valid wedding/marriage took place.

Yea, I didn't get the quote down exactly, but that is what he was driving at. The sense that their "marriages" were a mess right from the very beginning, such that impediments to valid vows existed. The "lateness" would hopefully indicate that these individuals would wanat to start living a validm Catholic vocation. We can only hope.