The Crusaders (slapdown article on national "orthodox" Catholic leaders)

Boston Globe ^ | November 2, 2003 | Charles P. Pierce

[american colleen]

A powerful faction of religious and political conservatives is waging a latter-day counterreformation, battling widespread efforts to liberalize the American Catholic Church. And it has the clout and the connections to succeed.

There is a glow to the priest when he talks. Something lights him up inside, and its intensity is increased by the mild way he says what he's saying. The words, harsh and unyielding, seem not so much a departure from the mainstream as they do a living refutation that there is any mainstream at all, not one to which the priest has to pay any mind, anyway.

[Salvation]

**1American'**

Oops that should have been

'American'

[sinkspur]

If he was a stock trader back in the seventies, before he became a priest, could he really be only 49 today? Doesn't seem possible.

He could have been a 23-year old trader in 1977, finished his philosophy and theology requirements in six years, and be 49 today.

He's a clerical clothes-horse, however, as he alternates between the classical Pontiff #5 collar (got to have a long neck to accommodate that baby), and the full collar favored by the Anglicans.

I don't like his references to "violence" in some contrived need to defend his faith here in the United States. He's got a quixotic character, but he's also extremely charming. I can see why the media and other personalities like him, with the blond hair, slim build, and all.

[Unam Sanctam]

Dear Sinkspur,

Do you not think that many Catholics are either improperly catechized or open and insouciant dissenters from Catholic doctrine, particularly on moral issues. In a free society, any church has a right to protect its doctrine, and anyone who rejects the doctrine is free to go elsewhere. It is against religious freedom to say that a religion must change because I want it to. The liberals say they support diversity, but they really want to eliminate all orthodox Christian options in our national life. The orthodox have every right to be upset and to fight for the Church to retain its doctrines!

[sinkspur]

The orthodox have every right to be upset and to fight for the Church to retain its doctrines!

You gonna shoot Ted Kennedy?

McCloskey's mention of violence seems gratuitious, to me. Where the hell did that come from?

You, apparently, disagree with John Paul II's approach to dissenters. I don't.

[Unam Sanctam]

I never said anything about killing Ted Kennedy. Father McCloskey said the words "rather than violence" people should separate peacefully rather than impose their views on others". That is not in any way an incitement to violence. It is pointing out a very pressing issue. Please take a look at the Episcopal Church in the USA. There, the dissenters against Christian moral teaching have taken over the Church, changed the doctrine, and are actively forcing orthodox Christians to comply with the new order. Obviously, we Christians are called to martyrdom rather than to give up the faith. And therefore, in such a scenario, it might just come to violence against the orthodox. I think you are trying to twist words into sounding sinister when in no way they are. As for the Holy Father, his softly, softly strategy his worked in some cases, less well than in others. My prudential criticism would be that he could stand to be a little firmer in protecting the truths of the faith. However, I do think he has done a lot to do that. The ones who I criticize the most are the bishops, who seem in many cases to have abandoned all responsibilities for upholding the truths of the faith in their particular dioceses.

[Unam Sanctam]

In a sense, every Catholic builds his own cafeteria now. Even John McCloskey has said that he would leave the church if, by some chance, a future pope were to change the church's stand on, say, birth control or abortion.

This is not being a cafeteria Catholics, because if the Church abandoned or reversed teachings part of the deposit of faith, then she would have apostatized and would no longer be the true faith. She cannot reverse herself. The reporter simply does not understand that being Catholic is not simply following everything the Pope says, but to believe in the entire deposit of faith revealed in Scripture and Tradition and authentically interpreted by the Magisterium.

[american colleen]

Just a quick one because Monday morning comes quickley...

McCloskey's mention of violence seems gratuitious, to me. Where the hell did that come from?

In order to enter the arena that Bishop Vicki Gene whatshisname's consecration was held in, you had to be frisked and go through a metal detector. I saw actual film footage of that on tonight's local newscast.

Ya just never know. I just thought of those nuts who shoot up abortion clinics - they are out there.

[JohnnyZ]

McCloskey, with his "get out of my Church" arrogance,

Did he really tell you that?!? Excellent . . .

[sinkspur]

Did he really tell you that?!?

No, he didn't.

If he did, I'd ask him on whose authority he was speaking.

[Unam Sanctam]

The Church is not yours, mine or Father McCloskey's, she is Christ's. Therefore, the Church has no right to teach that abortion, divorce, fornication, homosexual activity or artificial contraceptions are not sins, as would be the case if she were to continue along the same slippery slope to perdition that the Episcopal church appears to be treading.

[sinkspur]

The Church is not yours, mine or Father McCloskey's, she is Christ's.

Exactly. So, I will follow the successor of Peter in my treatment of who is, and who is not, in the Church.

Not Fr. McCloskey.

[RobbyS]

McBrien and Father Neuhaus were paired on "Meet the Press" one time and McBrien was plainly outclassed.

[Unam Sanctam]

Canon law provides for excommunication latae sentenciae in certain circumstances.

[sinkspur]

Canon law provides for excommunication latae sentenciae in certain circumstances.

Yep. Perhaps you'd supercede the Roman Pontiff in invoking it.

[Unam Sanctam]

Latae sententiae means that the acts themselves cause the excommunication. It does not require a Papal pronouncement.

[sinkspur]

But how is one to know unless he is reminded? Just who do you have in mind for these latae sententiaes?

[Unam Sanctam]

I'm not a canonist, but I was just responding to your point about the Pope with an observation that I don't think a Papal pronouncement is necessarily needed to know if someone has left the fold. In any event, I just object to your whole attitude that if we just sit back while the Catholic Church becomes an ECUSA clone, while dissident chanceries and religious education departments and catechists work to undermine the clear moral teachings of the faith the whole sacramental system. Yes, there is room for mercy and forbearance, but at some point, enough is enough and a church in a free society has the right to say, "this is what we believe, if you don't believe this, then please find your spiritual home elsewhere". It is unfair to have to change the teachings of the faith to the lowest common denominator. And don't tell me that one cannot change their religion based on intellectual conviction. I converted to Catholicism and abjured my childhood faith. I just think it is a tremendous tragedy that so many Catholics in this country simply donot know what their faith teaches and to a large extent, don't really care. I dread the Episcopalization of the Catholic Church that is proceeding apace right now. It has got to stop right now, and yes, some bishops should develop some backbone in order to curb the tremendous power of dissenters that is sapping the Church of strength here in the US and encouraging moral heresy. And no, before you try to vilify me once more, I am not advocating violence at all. Telling someone they are excommunicated is not violence, any more than telling someone they are being ejected from a private club is.

[sinkspur]

And no, before you try to vilify me once more,

I looked back over my posts, and I don't believe I ever vilified you.

Telling someone they are excommunicated is not violence, any more than telling someone they are being ejected from a private club is.

Well, you and Fr. McCloskey can just knock yourselves out anathematizing other Catholics.

I prefer to follow John Paul II in seeking to change them, however fruitless the effort may seem.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

I love Fr. CJ!

He introduced my now wife and I at the National Right-To-Life Comittee's Proudly Pro-Life Dinner in NYC in 1996.

Fr. CJ is one of the best Priests in this country. It is a great privilege to me that I can call him my friend.

Would you guys like to get his reaction to this article?

[LadyDoc]

Bork became a Catholic because after his first wife died, he married a Catholic woman... But when he decided to convert he went to McCloskey so he could discuss what Catholics believe with a priest who was both a good Catholic priest and an intelligent one...

Or it's an "opus dei" conspiracy theory...