Posted on 11/05/2003 8:48:22 PM PST by Land of the Irish
No. First of all, you are in the habit of lying about what Catholic deacons say; all one has to do is read what you attributed to a Catholic deacon concering Terri Schiavo. Now, you put words in a Catholic deacon's mouth AGAIN, as no Catholic deacon ever said that.
Second, one could deduce that FR was apostate only if every post on FR had to do with apostasy, as every article on Jewish Tribal Review has to do with anti-semitism and hatred of Israel.
YOU'RE the one that needs some logic training.
Then why can I get to Jewish Tribal Review in two clicks from a Traditional Catholic website?
To: narses
The miracle of the Eucharist itself is not enough?
Now, some Catholics need bleeding hosts?
Superstitious nonsense.
6 posted on 11/03/2003 9:29 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter. You will save one life, and may save two.) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
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So which part is the lie, your latest post or your claim to being a deacon?
"Eucharistic Miracle" is an oxymoron. If you need bleeding hosts to believe in the Real Presence, who's the one without belief?
BTW, the-pope.com IS a sede-vacantist website, linked to directly from the homepage of Apologia.
Here's a little teaser:
Our Spiritual Director, Father Mazzarella, said Daily Mass. When we finished, he opened the Tabernacle door, which contained the Bleeding Host. The Host was in flames, bleeding, and there was a pulsating heart bleeding in the center of the Host. I watched this for about 30 seconds or so, then the Host returned to normal. HOWEVER, I did manage to film this miracle with my camcorder!
Great. You've said it twice now, once on this thread. Now answer my question which you have so far dodged. What was the lie, your claim you've never said this or your claim to being a deacon?
Why do you resort to silly little personal attacks?
Abbe de Nantes - "One is dumbfounded by this torrent of shameless lies, concluded by an incredible declaration of the disastrous Second Vatican Council."
Catena Aurea by St. Thomas Aquinas
1. When the morning was come, all the Chief Priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
2. And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
Jerome: Observe the evil zeal of the Chief Priests; they watched the whole night with a view to this murder. And they gave Him up to Pilate bound, for such was their practice to send bound to the judge any whom they had sentenced to death.
Chrys., Hom. lxxxiv: They did not put Him to death in secret, because they sought to destroy His reputation, and the wonder with which He was regarded by many. For this reason they were minded to put Him to death openly before all, and therefore they led Him to the governor.
6. And the Chief Priests took the silver pieces, and said, "It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood."
Chrys.: The Chief Priests knowing that they had purchased a murder were condemned by their own conscience; they said, "It is the price of blood."
Jerome: Truly straining out the gnat, and swallowing the camel; for if they would not put the money into the treasury, because it was the price of blood, why did they shed the blood at all?
11. And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, "Art thou the King of the Jews?" And Jesus said unto him, "Thou sayest."
12. And when he was accused of the Chief Priests and elders, he answered nothing.
13. Then said Pilate unto him, "Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
14. And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.
Jerome: But observe, that to Pilate who asked the question unwillingly He did answer somewhat; but to the Chief Priests and Priests He refused to answer, judging them unworthy of a word; "And when he was accused by the Chief Priests and Elders he answered nothing."
"Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?"
Jerome: Thus though it is a Gentile who sentences Jesus, he lays the cause of His condemnation upon the Jews.
Chrys.: He said this out of a wish to release Him, if He should justify Himself in His answer. But the Jews, though they had so many practical proofs of His power, His meekness and humbleness, were yet enraged against Him, and urged on by a perverted judgment. Wherefore He answers nothing, or if He makes any [p. 939] answer He says little, that total silence might not be construed into obstinacy.
15. Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would.
16. And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.
17. Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, "Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?"
18. For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.
19. When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, "Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him."
20. But the Chief Priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.
21. The governor answered and said unto them, "Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you?" They said, "Barabbas."
22. Pilate saith unto them, "What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ?" They all say unto him, "Let him be crucified."
23. And the governor said, "Why, what evil bath [p. 940] he done?" But they cried out the more, saying, "Let him be crucified."
24. When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just person; see ye to it."
25. Then answered all the people, and said, "His blood be on us, and on our children."
26. Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
Chrys.: And he sought to rescue Christ by means of this practice, that the Jews might not have the shadow of an excuse left them. A convicted murderer is put in comparison with Christ, Barabbas, whom he calls not merely a robber, but a notable one, that is, renowned for crime.
Jerome: In the Gospel entitled 'according to the Hebrews,' Barabbas is interpreted, 'The son of their master,' who had been condemned for sedition and murder. Pilate gives them the choice between Jesus and the robber, not doubting but that Jesus would be the rather chosen.
Chrys.: "Whom will ye that I release unto you?" &c. As much as to say, If ye will not let Him go as innocent, at least, yield Him, as convicted, to this holy day. For if you would have released one of whose guilt there was no doubt, much more should you do so in doubtful cases. Observe how circumstances are reversed. It is the populace who are wont to petition. [p. 941] for the condemned, and the prince to grant, but here it is the reverse, the prince asks of the people, and renders them thereby more violent.
Chrys.: Then is added something else which alone was enough to deter all from putting Him to death; "When he was set on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man." For joined with the proof afforded by the events themselves, a dream was no light confirmation.
Raban.: It is to be noted, that the bench (tribunal) is the seat of the judge, the throne (solium) of the king, the chair (cathedra) of the master. In visions and dreams the wife of a Gentile understood what the Jews when awake would neither believe nor understand.
Jerome: Observe also that visions are often vouchsafed by God to the Gentiles, and that the confession of Pilate and his wife that the Lord was innocent is a testimony of the Gentile people.
Chrys.: But why did Pilate himself not see this vision? Because his wife was more worthy; or because if Pilate had seen it, he would not have had equal credit, or perhaps would not have told it; wherefore it is provided by God that his wife should see it, and thus it be made manifest to all. And she not merely sees it, but "suffers many things because of him," so that sympathy with his wife would make the husband more slack to put Him to death. And the time agreed well, for it was the same night that she saw it.
Chrys., Hom. iii, in Caen. Dom.: Thus then the judge terrified through his wife, and that he might not consent in the judgment to the accusation of the Jews, himself endured judgment in the affliction of his wife; the judge is judged, and tortured before he tortures.
Chrys.: But none of the foregoing things moved Christ's enemies, because envy had altogether blinded them, and of their own wickedness they corrupt the people, for they "persuaded the people that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus."
Origen: Thus it is plainly seen how the Jewish people is moved by its elders and the doctors of the Jewish system, and stirred up against Jesus to destroy Him.
Origen: But the populace, like wild beasts that rage the open plains, would have Barabbas released to them. For this people had seditions, murders, robberies, practised by some of their own nation in act, and nourished by all of them who believe not in Jesus, inwardly in their mind. Where Jesus is not, there are strifes and fightings; where He is, there is peace and all good things. All those who are like the Jews either in doctrine or life desire Barabbas to be loosed to them; for whoso does evil, Barabbas is loosed in his body, and Jesus bound; but he that does good has Christ loosed, and Barabbas bound.
Pilate sought to strike them with shame for so great injustice, "What shall I do then with Jesus that is called Christ?" And not that only, but desiring to fill up the measure of their guilt. But neither do they blush that Pilate confessed Jesus to be the Christ, nor set any bounds to their impiety, They all say unto him, "Let him be crucified." Thus they multiplied the sum of their wickedness, not only asking the life of a murderer, but the death of a righteous man, and that the shameful death of the cross.
Jerome: Yet even after this answer of theirs, Pilate did not at once assent, but in accordance with his wife's suggestion, "Have thou nothing to do with that just man," he answered, "Why, what evil hath he done?" This speech of Pilate's acquits Jesus. "But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified;" that it might be fulfilled which is said in the Psalm, "Many dogs have compassed me, the congregation of the wicked hath inclosed me;" [Ps 22:16] and also that of Hieremias, "Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest, they have given forth their voice against me." [Jer 12:8]
Aug., de Cons. Ev., iii, 8: Pilate many times pleaded with the Jews, desiring that Jesus might be released, which Matthew witnesses in very few words, when he says, "Pilate seeing that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made." He would not have spoken thus, if Pilate had not striven much, though how many efforts he made to release Jesus he does not mention.
Remig.: It was customary among the ancients, when one would refuse to participate in any crime, to take water and wash his hands before the people.
Jerome: Pilate took water in accordance with that, "I Will wash my hands in innocency," [Ps 26:6] in a manner testifying and saying, I indeed have sought to deliver this innocent man, but since a tumult is rising, and the charge of treason to Caesar is urged against me, I am innocent of the blood of this just man. The judge then who is thus compelled to give sentence against the Lord, does not convict the accused, but the accusers, pronouncing innocent Him who is to be crucified.
"See ye to it," as though be had said, I am the law's minister, it is your voice that has shed this blood. Then answered all the people and said, "His blood be on us and on our children." This imprecation rests at the present day upon the Jews, the Lord's blood is not removed from them.
Chrys.: Observe here the infatuation of the Jews; their headlong haste, and destructive passions will not let them see what they ought to see, and they curse themselves, saying, "His blood be upon us," and even entail the curse upon their children. Yet a merciful God did not ratify this sentence, but accepted such of them and of their children as repented; for Paul was of them, and many thousands of those who in Jerusalem believed.
Leo, Serm., 59, 2: The impiety of the Jews then [p. 944] exceeded the fault of Pilate; but he was not guiltless, seeing he resigned his own jurisdiction, and acquiesced in the injustice of others.
Jerome: This was done that we might be delivered from those stripes of which it is said, "Many stripes shall be to the wicked." [Ps 32:10] Also in the washing of Pilate's hands all the works of the Gentiles are cleansed, and we are acquitted of all share in the impiety of the Jews.
Hilary: At the desire of the Priests the populace chose Barabbas, which is interpreted 'the son of a Father,' thus shadowing forth the unbelief to come when Antichrist the son of sin should be preferred to Christ.
Raban.: Barabbas also, who headed a sedition among the people, is released to the Jews, that is the Devil, who to this day reigns among them, so that they cannot have peace.
30. And they spit upon him, and took the reed and smote him on the head.
Raban.: They smite the head of Christ with a reed, who speak against His divinity, and endeavour to maintain their error by the authority of Holy Scripture, which is written by a reed.
38. Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
Leo, Serm. 55, 1: "Two thieves were crucified with him, one on the right hand and one on the left," that in the figure of His cross might be represented that separation of all mankind which shall be made in His judgment. The Passion then of Christ contains a sacrament of our salvation, and of that instrument which the wickedness of the Jews provided for His punishment, the power of the Redeemer made a step [p. 952] to glory.
Hilary: Or otherwise; Two thieves are set up on His right and left hand, to signify that the entire human race is called to the Sacrament of the Lord's Passion; but because there shall be a division of believers to the right, and unbelievers to the left, one of the two who is set on His right hand is saved by the justification of faith.
39. And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their beads,
40. And saying, "Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross."
42. "He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
Chrys.: Having stripped and crucified Christ, they go yet further, and seeing Him on the cross revile Him.
Jerome: "They revile him" because they passed by that way, and would not walk in the true way of the Scriptures. "They wagged their heads," because they had just before shifted their feet, and stood not upon a rock. The foolish rabble cast the same taunt against Him that the false witnesses had invented, "Aha! thou that destroyest the temple of God and rebuildest it in three days."
Hilary: What forgiveness then for them, when by the resurrection of His body they shall see the temple of God rebuilt within three days?
Chrys.: And as beginning to extenuate His former miracles, they add, "Save thyself; if thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross."
Jerome: Even the Scribes and Pharisees reluctantly confess that "He saved others." Your own judgment then condemns you, for in that He saved others, He could if He would have saved Himself.
Pseudo-Chrys.: [ed. note, d: Hom. de Cruce et Latr. in the Latin Chrys. (ed. Paris. 1588.) vol. iii. p. 750]
But attend to this speech of these children of the Devil, how they imitate their father's speech. The Devil said, "If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down;" [Matt 4:6] and they say now, "If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross."
Leo, Serm. 55, 2: From what source of error, O Jews, have ye sucked in the poison of such blasphemies? What teacher delivered it to you? What learning moved you to think that the true King of Israel, that the veritable Son of God, would be He who would not suffer Himself to be crucified, and would set free His body from the fastenings of the nails? Not the bidden meaning of the Law, not the mouths of the Prophets. Had ye indeed ever read, "I hid not my face from the shame of spitting;" [Is 50:6] or that again, :They pierced my hands and my feet, they told all my bones." [Ps 22:16] Where have ye ever read that the Lord came down from the cross? But ye have read, "The Lord hath reigned from the tree." [ed. note, e: Ps. 96, 10. 'Dominus regnavit a ligno,' in the old Italic Version; and so Tertullian adv. Marc. iii. The Vulg. follows the Heb.]
Jerome: But unworthy of credit is that promise, "And we will believe him." For which is greater, to come down while yet alive from the cross, or to rise from the tomb when dead? Yet this He did, and ye believed not; therefore neither would ye have believed if He had come down from the cross. It seems to me that this was a suggestion of the daemons. For immediately [p. 954] when the Lord was crucified they felt the power of the cross, and perceived that their strength was broken, and therefore contrive this to move Him to come down from the cross. But the Lord, aware of the designs of His foes, remains on the cross that He may destroy the Devil.
62. Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the Chief Priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63. Saying, "Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
65 Pilate said unto them, "Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can."
66 So they went and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.
Jerome: It was not enough for the Chief Priests to have crucified the Lord the Saviour, if they did not guard the sepulchre, and do their utmost to lay hands on Him as He rose from the dead.
Raban.: "Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day." For Christ's disciples were spiritually thieves; stealing from the unthankful Jews the writings of the New and Old Testament, they bestowed them to be used by the Church; and while they slept, that is, while the Jews were sunk in the lethargy of unbelief, they carried off the promised Saviour, and gave Him to be believed on by the Gentiles.
Chrys.: Pilate will not suffer that the soldiers alone should seal. But as though he had learnt the truth concerning Christ, he was no longer willing to be partner in their acts, and says, Seal it as ye will yourselves, that ye may not be able to accuse others. For had the soldiers alone sealed, they might have said that the soldiers had suffered the disciples to steal the body, and so given the disciples a handle to forge a tale concerning the resurrection; but this could they not say now, when they themselves had sealed the sepulchre.
The lie was your saying, two weeks ago, that I ridiculed those who were trying to save Terri Schiavo, when, in fact, I was defending Jeb Bush's efforts.
That was the lie.
However, this is now the fifth thread on to which you have carried this little personal vendetta. You have been warned to stop. Your continued efforts to do this get threads pulled and I'm not going to aid you in this regard.
Continue to post away but I won't be taking the bait.
Yes. They were pulled at your request after I asked you to explain why you were lying about me.
And this "vendetta" is an attempt to call you on a lie, which you will not acknowledge nor apologize for.
Muslims do NOT worhip the same God as Christians, and though the Pope claims their link to Abraham means we have the same God, Jesus Christ condemns this proposition, (John 8: 37 -44).
I always enjoy how you Vatican II-fers like to play with words, such as "let us look at what unites us rather than at what divides us". As though something can be both united and divided at the same time. What rubbish! This is a hollow play on words that should be confined to the politicians and embassadors who seek to make political pacts between their respective nations. But it can only serve to undermine religion, which is the seeking of Truth.
When you have multiple and extreme theological factors that divide two faiths, there is nothing that unifies them, nor is there any 'common ground' for the two to stand on. Error is not a unifying element, and a few apparent surface similarities do not bridge the theological divide. The faiths are either united in the wholeness of Truth or totally divided, because truth evaporates as soon as the smallest error is mingled with it. United or divided, one or the other. Truth is absolute or it is not truth. Even a single heresy separates one from God, but apostacy creates a cavernous divide.
There exists no other term to define the relationship between two different faiths, you are united in truth or divided. 'Things' can be weakly or loosely united, but divided means divided, separate, apart, severed, torn asunder, detached.
To put it even more simply, if the way to salvation is North, then going NorthEast will still lead you to hell, even though you could claim there was the commonality of "North" in both sets of directions.
The Catholic faith is hopelessly divided in faith from Islam. Nothing can unite the two because one represents Truth, the other error. Jesus went out of His way many times to make this clear; for example, though He agreed that the Pharisees were indeed the descendents of Abraham, He none the less told them God was not their father:
(1). "I know that you are descendants of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me, because my word finds no place in you.--- They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do what Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God; this is not what Abraham did.--- They said to him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; ---You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires". (John 8: 37-44)
(2). "He that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathers not with Me, scatters". (Mathew 12:30)
(3). "A house divided against itself cannot stand". (Mathew 12:25)
(4). "Is Christ divided"? (I Corinthians 1:13).
Muslims worship a totally false god, an idol which was created by Mohammed. They detest Christians and Jews. Even their heavenly reward consists of filthy carnal pleasures with fleshy 'virgins'. It is utterly unfathomable to me that any Catholic could ever believe that Mohammedism, (which says that Jesus was just man who died and remained dead, and which orders them to convert or kill Christians and Jews), can be from God. That "religion" is straight from the sulphuric bowels of Hell.
Since all worship of God is limited and bound by our understanding of Him, it is a literal impossibility for two different understandings of God to lead to the same God. You are being led by the egregious assumption that God will reveal Himself in a certain way to some, and in a different way to others. Or that Muslims may somehow worship the right God while holding a false understanding of who He is. Strange thinking.
"Jesus Christ is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever". (Hebrews 13:8)
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