BRUCE ALMIGHTY: Atheism's Critique of Arminianism

[drstevej]

Bruce Nolan (Carrey), a television reporter in Buffalo, N.Y.,is discontented with almost everything in life despite his popularity and the love of his girlfriend, Grace (Aniston) . At the end of the worst day of his life, Bruce angrily ridicules and rages against God and God responds. God appears in human form (Freeman) and, endowing Bruce with divine powers, challenges Bruce to take on the big job to see if he can do it any better.

 

Bruce Nolan:       How do you make someone love you without changing free will?
God:                     Welcome to my world.

[Frumanchu]

LOL!

We disagree with Spurgeon far less than you do, my friend.

[jude24]

Some of the swarm are so arrogant as to claim that even the Calvinist Charles Spurgeon was wrong about predestination.

If we slavishly followed Spurgeon, you'd accuse us of worshipping Spurgeon. (You've done it with Calvin, as it is). Calvinists are in no way obliged to agree 100% with any human writer; we're all fallible.

[Gamecock]

Oh please, your arrogance is amusing.

Why thank you! I try to entertain and inform!

BTW, I find it amusing how you appear to build your entire doctrine on John 3:16 instead of the entirety of Scripture, an ad hominem for good measure and an ad judicium for additonal flavor.

If you want to argue based on the totality of scripture, I'll be happy to participate. If all you care to do throw zingers, I'll be happy with that as well.

(BTW, I'm glad your new bestest buddy, ctd, has clued you in to his own twisted view of the Doctrines of Grace. He is usually good for a chuckle, especially when his medications need adjusting. But alas, he can't participate as often as he would like. He is busy working on a major thesis he promised on Saturday. Which Saturday, we have no idea. That, coupled with his obsession on dancing lesbians and strangling preachers keeps him very busy. BTW, did he mention that his IQ is 170! We are in grateful of the time he does spend with us!)

[Gamecock]

How rude of me!

Pinging ctd! Post 23! ctd, post 23....

[CCWoody]

I had not, because I had assumed based upon the previews that the movie was blasphemous. But what I heard from a friend is that it actually raises a good point: do you really think you can do a better job than the Almighty? ~ jude24

Of course the movie is blasphemous. That's why my wife hated it. I had to point out that the movies is a blasphemy based upon the Arminian's view of God, which the Athiests nail pretty good. Go rent the movie and figure out for yourself the image of God which Arminianism protrays to the Athiests. It is stunning!

Were I an Atheist, I too would blasphemy that sad impotent god the Arminian tells me is worthy of my adoration.


• He can't do as He will among the inhabitants of the earth because of precious free will.
• He can't do all his own pleasure because of precious free will.
• His counsel can't stand because of precious free will.


Poor, poor, Arminain god. Someone should make Him happy by giving Him their precious free will. Oh, how different is the Biblical Calvinist image presented. The Arminian's god is not even interesting to me.

Some people have received twenty different "gospels" in as many years; how many more they will accept before they get to their journey's end, it would be difficult to predict. I thank God that He early taught me the gospel, and I have been so perfectly satisfied with it, that I do not want to know any other.... ~ C.H. Spurgeon in A Defense of Calvinism

Woody.

[CCWoody]

One of these days I'll bet we'll get to heaven to find out that neither the Calvinists nor the Arminian's have it figured out. We'll all have a good laugh about the whole thing (with perhaps some mourning that perhaps our infighting drove away some souls), and then we'll promptly set it a side to get down to the business of enjoying our eternal home and worshipping its landlord. ~ mcg1969

Poor, poor, God! He can't save all, which is his desire because some people "drove away some souls." Oh, bewail the agony of it that I caused people to burn in the Lake of Fire forever. I shall never be happy, but shall forever on my knees by the Lake of Fire moan for those I caused to be there.

Woody.

P.S. Try your guilt trips on someone who believes that their precious free will is more powerful than God.

[CCWoody]

Yawn.

You have, by couching the question in such a manner, intellectually checkmated yourself, because to introduce 'blasphemy' into the equation is assuming a predetermined set of conditions already exist, thus assuring from the beginning that all contentions are, by default, skewed in favor of one outcome. ~ Pahuanui

Yawn!

Did you know than not a single non-Calvinist has been able to answer the quesions. Why, because they know that their god is unable to have his desire and so they strut like a rooster for a moment and then head off stage.

So, my questions stand and all the world knows that the questions remain unanswered or even unchallenged in any meaningful way. One tried once. He babbled on about Prevenient grace, but was unable to tell me how His god can't factor in free will in his pathetic desire to save all.

Good day and thanks for not answering...

Woody.

[mcg1969]

You continue to fail to get my point, which I guess you were predestined to do, so there's nothing I can do about it. And you're clearly a troll, in the Slashdot sense of the word, as your silly assertion that I'm simply arguing from John 3:16 demonstrates.

Unlike you, I readily admit that I do not have the qualifications to whip out my Bibles and have a conclusive debate about Calvinism. My gosh I don't even have an informed and secure position, because I find Scripture heady and challenging and, at times, paradoxical (and yet not contradictory). Granted, I am skeptical of Calvinism as I also am of Arminianism, seeing them as two ends of a paradoxical spectrum. But I won't bother to debate with you, because doing so would solve nothing: in the end it would leave people far more intelligent and qualified than either of us in disagreement on the issue.

Besides, the primary reason for my participation in this thread has not been to challenge your doctrine at all, it has been to challenge your attitude. And it's quite clear that I have failed to move you in any regard on that matter.

If you are indeed correct, than I can only hope I am included among the elect so that I can pat you on the back in heaven and thank you for your faithfulness---and hear your apology for your pride.

[CCWoody]

Oh please, your arrogance is amusing. ~ mcg1969

I wonder how many people you are ultimately sending to hell because of your bickering. We may never know.

Plenty of people more knowledgeable than either of us disagree on the question of Calvinism, and you know it. ~ mcg1969

The Reformation took place without the help of Arminianism and when she finally did enter the church, she did so as a troubler. She ignored the lessons the Holy Spirit taught the churches throughout the ages and ignored the arguments which had already been settled before and attempted to drive a wedge into the church by lies and deception. Even her most glorious poster boy John Wesley spoke open lies about Toplady and caused a rift in the church at the time the Great Awakening was happening. Why he felt that division was more important than the preaching of the gospel, we may never know. But, rest assured, Wesley has apologized to a great many people for the evil he sowed.

Woody.

[Pahuanui]

Did you know than not a single non-Calvinist has been able to answer the quesions.

Since it's clear that the nature of my reply was well over your head, I'll simplify it for you.

If your questions were answered or not is irrelevant. Their very nature (and the fact that you asked them) presumes conditions that bias any reply towards your own position.

So, my questions stand and all the world knows that the questions remain unanswered or even unchallenged in any meaningful way.

Your questions are as laughable as your inability to understand why they discount the possibility of any meaningful exchange of ideas.

[drstevej]

mcg1969 to Game Cock ***And you're clearly a troll***

As the initiator of the thread, I welcome GC's presence here and comments. You are welcome as well. I can identify with your uncertainty between Calvinism and Arminianism (been there).

The study of Scripture and reading what Calvinists say (as opposed to caricatures of Calvinism) moved me from Arminianism to Calvinism (the 4 point variety).

[mcg1969]

I wonder how many people you are ultimately sending to hell because of your bickering. We may never know.

You're asking the wrong person that question, my friend. I started with a simple comment basically about how we basically have a limited understanding of God in this physical universe and won't know in full until glory. (Given your tagline, I think you would at least agree with that general principle.) It's easy enough to see where the mudslinging came from.

The Reformation took place without the help of Arminianism and when she finally did enter the church, she did so as a troubler

I understand your point. Please understand I am not an Arminian apologist. In fact, the five-sentence TULIP synopsis is on its face reasonable to me. But of course, Calvinism is much more detailed than that. And since Calvinist adherents themselves disagree about the details of their own doctrine I don't mind identifying myself as "in continual education, continually awestruck."

Again my issue is with attitude not content. I have seen equally objectionable posturing from non-Calvinists as well.

[Gamecock]

And you're clearly a troll

I know my position, you on the otherhand are clueless:

My gosh I don't even have an informed and secure position

And you call me a troll????

But I won't bother to debate with you, because doing so would solve nothing: in the end it would leave people far more intelligent and qualified than either of us in disagreement on the issue.

BWAHHAA, speak for yourself! I've seen a lot of pride on both sides of the debate, but never pride about total ignorance.

FYI, Every Calvinist I know, both here in the virtual world and real life, was once an Arminian. (myself included) Only when they could let go of the pop-psych "I'm a good person!" mantra did they come to grips with the Doctrines of Grace. One day, when God, in the person of the Holy Spirit, lifts the scales from your eyes, you will be see what a sinner you really are, how every fiber of your being is sinful, how in your natuaral state you wanted nothing of God. Then, and only then, will you understand what we Calvinists are talking about.

it has been to challenge your attitude

What, that I am a sinner? You want to expose that I don't deserve one iota of the Grace God has given me? That I am a wretch and in my fallen state wanted nothing to do with a Holy God? I confess that every night, and you accuse me of being prideful? I thank God that he did not leave me to my precious free will!

That my friend, is what Calvinism is all about.

[mcg1969]

Brother, I have no pride about my ignorance. It is not something to be proud of, but rather something for me to strive to correct. I guess that's part of what it means to work out my salvation with fear and trembling, I suppose. Pride rather is not recognizing ignorance where it exists.

[Revelation 911]

I am so thankful God messed with my heart and gave me the will to love Him.

Drsteve....dont you have mormons to play with

Hope your holiday was enjoyable, but of course it was predestined to be.

I particularly enjoyed the scene where Carrey asks God into his heart

hey help me out with a question.... I was staring at my kids the other day trying to think hard (as hard as an arminian can think, pondering calvinism) - how do I tell if theyre elect or unelect - when does that happen? -

we can play this game if you want- I just see it as a rehash on the arminian bash, when there is such a target rich environment over on fair

your silly pal rev

besides - youre not even a real calvinist - I thought double pre-desters were the only card carrying ones......OP told me LOL

- youre only a friggin 4 pointer - who's right - you - OP or the Amyrauldian?

whats on your servetus burger tonight?

you know I love you like a brother right? LOL

[Gamecock]

Well, I am reminded of a writing by the son of my favorite theologian.

Check it out, if you are so inclined:
http://www.razormouth.com/archives/00000067.htm

[mcg1969]

Thanks for the gentle and sane words, drstevej.

Emphasis mine:
The study of Scripture and reading what Calvinists say (as opposed to caricatures of Calvinism) moved me from Arminianism to Calvinism (the 4 point variety).

You're helping me illustrate my point here. The divisions within Calvinism alone are evidence for the need for care and humility in our approach to disagreements. Granted I know this thread is focused on Arminianism, but removing Arminianism from the sphere hardly eliminates all dispute.

Reminds me of the following joke, with which I'll end my participation in this thread:

A guy is standing at the edge of a bridge, ready to jump off, when a second man runs up to stop him.
"Don't do it!" He says. "You must have something to live for! There must be something I can tell you to help you want to live. What about your faith in God? Do you believe in God?"
"Yes! I do! I'm a Christian, actually."
"Great! Me too! Catholic or Protestant?"
"Protestant."
"ME TOO! Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, C.O.G.?"
"Lutheran!"
"I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! ME TOO!"
"German Lutheran or American Lutheran?"
"American."
"ME TOO! What friends we can be! Wisconsin Synod or Missouri?"
"Wisconsin!"
"Die, heretic!" says the second man, and pushes the first off the bridge...

[Jean Chauvin]

"Some of the swarm are so arrogant as to claim that even the Calvinist Charles Spurgeon was wrong about predestination."

No, we claim that Spurgeon was wrong on 1 Timothy 2:4 -NOT about predestination.

Since you conceded the definition of the Greek word "Pas" to the Calvinists and subsequently ran away from our current conversation (you seem to have the habit of running away from conversations and not following through on your promised defenses), we have not had the opportunity to get to 1 Timothy 2:4 and Spurgeon.

But remember, our disagreement is not with Spurgeon on predestination. For Spurgeon was an ardent 5 Point Calvinist who strongly upheld the "L" of Limited Atonement.

Our disagreement is with Spurgeon on his interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:4.

Let's be honest about this, ctd.

Jean

[Revelation 911]

I wonder how many people you are ultimately sending to hell because of your bickering. We may never know.

woody....cmon - pot...kettle....black

how was the mother of all calvinist holidays at the clear channel woody house?

[drstevej]

Am familiar with the joke, but prefer the version told by Emo Phillips.

Do you really understand the difference between Calvinism and Amyrauldianism (4 point Calvinism)? If you do you realize that Amyrauldians are clearly in the Calvinistic camp, differing on the order of the decree and a text or two.

On the otherhand, Arminianism is a radically different perspective on God and man. So don't misunderstand what is at stake here in the discussion.

Keep participating, you have more to learn. Participating helps sharpen your understanding.