Philosophy and Christian Theology (My title)

Book | 1992 | Gordan Spykman

[betty boop]

Creation was unaffected, Romans 8:22, and continues to be worse and worse....

Well maybe we should just chalk that up to "spiritual entropy," my man! But that doesn't seem to affect the intent of the renovation.

[Markofhumanfeet]

Yes all creation groans and waits for a new body. It got hope, which was the intent. Romans 8:24

[betty boop]

It got hope, which was the intent.

Dear Mark, Christian hope is ever grounded in faith and trust in God.

Just to bore everyone to death here, the etymology of the English word faith stems from the same Latin root, fides, which carries both meanings. The English word "fiduciary" derives from the same root, for the same reasons.

[Alamo-Girl]

I have prayed and I have praised and meditated since our last discussion on this thread, and I am so excited to share this with you. Bubbles, betty boop, very tiny bubbles - lots of them rising out of the darkness and disappearing into the Light!

For the Lurkers, this is an impression from worship not doctrine...

Again, there is basis in Scripture:

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. - John 12:32

[Alamo-Girl]

It appears my mention of Romans 8 at post 58, following your mention of Creation at post 57, has caused a bit of a "sidebar" on the subject. Here are the relevant passages for anyone lurking:

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

Strange and wonderful it is that the creature is already aware of that which has escaped so many men – namely, what Jesus has done for us and what the arrival of the God’s kingdom means. Praise God!!!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"Bubbles, betty boop, very tiny bubbles - lots of them rising out of the darkness and disappearing into the Light."

I don't understand your reference.

???

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post and your question! The conversation begins at post 55 and indeed my post doesn't make a lot of sense without that context.

[Markofhumanfeet]

Dear betty, yes, but the Jewish people had faith, from Abraham, but was that the end of the story?

[Markofhumanfeet]

It's the Lawrence Welk cosmological view

[betty boop]

Abraham, but was that the end of the story?

Heaven's no! Abraham and his Holy Rainbow signal the beginning of the story for us Christians.

[Markofhumanfeet]

Well then, hope or as you call it, his Holy Rainbow, had to enter the picture now, didn't He? Faith and trust are fine, but there has to be the Promise

[Markofhumanfeet]

Actually, I like your tiny bubbles vision. That's what the sea of humanity is, over time, popping up and disappearing, like so much foam.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your reply, Markofhumanfeet!

Actually, I like your tiny bubbles vision. That's what the sea of humanity is, over time, popping up and disappearing, like so much foam.

Once again, lest there be any misunderstanding - this is an impression I got while in worship, it is not doctrine. The closest parallel that comes to mind is the sense that wells up inside an artist or composer. In this case, the thought wells up inside while meditating on Him. If I were an artist, it might end up very poorly captured on canvas in some expressionist style.

Your point about the sea of humanity, over time, is very true. I say this because the the great tear in space/time and the unspeakable Light are in the aspect of timelessness (the vertical axis of the Cross in betty boop's metaphor) ... whereas the bubbles rising from darkness to Light are temporal (the horizontal axis of the Cross in betty boop's metaphor).

[Markofhumanfeet]

I was reading about super luminosity and the fourth dimension some time ago, and thought the same thing, re consciousness. I do believe that true believers exist in a dimension of light unavailable to the natural man.

[ponyespresso]

It's the Lawrence Welk cosmological view

Actually, tiny bubbles was the Don Ho cosmological view.

pony

[Markofhumanfeet]

LOL. But where did, "Turn off that bubble machine!" come from? I can't remember

[betty boop]

Faith and trust are fine, but there has to be the Promise.

Well Mark, that meaning's implicit in my (rather poetical -- sorry!) reference to Abraham's Holy Rainbow, isn't it? The Holy Rainbow was the sign affirming the covenant between God and Abraham, made at God's behest, with Abraham's totally confirming response, a surrender in love to the glorious love of the Lord. Thus the history of direct divine-human relations and communications begins in human historical time.

Mark, this leads me to another issue I've been thinking about lately, and I wondered if you would share your thoughts with me. It's the kind of problem for which there is no easy answer.

Here's the question: Ought the Holy Scriptures to be read as divine information, or as divine poetry?

I think the question is legitimate. For consider how removed in sheer dimension and scale is the mind of God from the human mind. This suggests that if God wants to communicate with us (and obviously He does) then in a certain sense He speaks to us in symbols, not in rationalist language. Which is to say He speaks to us in the language of poetry.

It seems to me this need not be an "either/or" proposition. But as Alamo-Girl justly says, we must not confuse doctrine with personal witness.

Yet poetry is a form that naturally makes one a "witness," in the sense of felt, mutual participation with its author with subsequent reflection, in a way that rationalist language never does. I have in mind John 14 here.

And yet humans also need the information. Indeed, there is a critical need.

How do we find the balance?

[unspun]

Here's the question: Ought the Holy Scriptures to be read as divine information, or as divine poetry?
...
It seems to me this need not be an "either/or" proposition.

I think you've begun to answer your question.

How do we find the balance?

How about this? I think maybe we don't worry quite so face-on about the balance between what we conceptualize as poetry or prose and engage two old fashioned, intuitive techniques (lead by the Holy Spirit as He pleases with a willing heart) --really two techniques in one, called contextual criticism.

First, to read as the writing asks to be read (within its immediate context)...

and,

Second, to read by "comparing Scripture with Scripture" (as the Logos also asks us to read itself) granting God His place and that He has given us words of which we may come to a sufficient understanding, in the place He gives us, even if that understanding is grossly deferred to the regenerate's completed understanding.

Why read the Logos the way the Logos asks us and not assume any higher or much more pithy point of view? Because "In the beginning," the Logos intiates all of our true knowledge.

As poetry or prose? As one very, very humble.

And what about all that other knowledge we all have, especially by 2/20/2004? Well, let Logos and His sent servant Rhema interpret that, too.

There -- hope I'm not too much of a spoil sport for you, Lady Jean. ;-`

[unspun]

I'm not sure this addresses the "bubbles" exclamation, but when have I let uncertainty about a question keep me from tossing up an answer?

Also, if this does belong anywhere, it may better fit in bety boop's Cosmology thread, but:

I'd guess it's probably healthy to think of created stuff not as something made in a vacuum, but as what's left inside after God pulls much of Himself away.

[unspun]

And God save us all from the true horrors of getting Him nauseous with our bubbles.