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Posted on 05/19/2005 2:43:40 PM PDT by ninenot
Facts everyone NEEDS to know about the "Traditional" Latin Mass
FACT: Even the neotrad Catholic Encyclopedia admits the Latin Mass was a radical break with tradition!
The REAL Traditional Roman Mass is the Greek Mass of the first three centuries as described by the Apostolic Constitutions and the Apology of St. Justin Martyr. The Catholic Encyclopedia written and published in 1913 by diehard "pre-Vatican II" neotrads, was forced to admit that its oh-so-precious Latin Mass was a radical and unprecedented break from tradition unlike any that had ever gone before. Just read these shocking quotes from the article Liturgy of the Mass:
The origin of the Roman Mass, on the other hand, is a most difficult question. We have here two fixed and certain data: the Liturgy in Greek described by St. Justin Martyr (d. c. 165), which is that of the Church of Rome in the second century, and, at the other end of the development, the Liturgy of the first Roman Sacramentaries in Latin, in about the sixth century. The two are very different. He [Justin Martyr] describes how the Holy Eucharist was celebrated in Rome in the middle of the second century we have hardly any knowledge at all of what developments the Roman Rite went through during the third and fourth centuries By the fifth century, we come back to comparatively firm ground, after a radical change.
But between this original Roman Rite (which we can study only in the Apost. Const.) and the Mass as it emerges in the first sacramentaries (sixth to seventh century) there is a great change
This brings us back to a most difficult question: Why and when was the Roman Liturgy changed from what we see in Justin Martyr to that of Gregory I? The change is radical, especially as regards the most important element of the Mass, the Canon.
at Rome the Eucharistic prayer was fundamentally changed and recast at some uncertain period between the fourth and the sixth and seventh centuries. During the same time the prayers of the faithful before Offertory disappeared, the kiss of peace was trasferred to after the Consecration, and the Epiklesis was omitted or mutilated into our Supplices prayer.
Finally, the article quotes the liturgical historian Rauschen as saying:
We must then admit that between the years 400 and 500 a great transformation was made in the Roman Canon.
What more proof could anyone POSSIBLY need?! The so-called Traditional Latin Mass is NOT traditional at all!!! Its a drastic change in 200 years of liturgical tradition, and one concocted by unknown scholars and unaccountable liturgical experts. It is a dangerous modern innovation that is putting millions of souls in jeopardy!!
FACT: Latin is NOT the original language of the Church!
Its a VERNACULAR language that was foisted on the Roman church by Pope Victor I (A.D. 190-202), who was an AFRICAN priest--NOT a Roman!!!
The earliest liturgies at Rome as described by St. Justin Martyr were in GREEK. But once Victor made the change in language, that OPENED THE DOOR a century later to a barrage of changes in the rite of Mass itself, from which the Roman Rite has NEVER recovered.
This opening up of vernacular languages has led to the Church becoming a veritable Tower of Babel, full of all sorts of barbarian languages that were NOT SPOKEN BY THE APOSTLES. Was this what Christ intended when he prayed that the church be one? A hodge podge of incomprehensible barbarian tongues that were formerly used to worship fake gods like Jupiter? Die-hard Vulgate Pope John VIII even allowed Cyril and Methodius to translate the liturgy for the Slavs into Old Church Slavonic!!
Wouldnt you want to use a language that was actually spoken by the Apostles, rather than some barbarian language spoken by goatskin wearing savages? EVERY SINGLE BOOK of the New Testament was written in GREEK. Not Latin. Not Syriac. Not Coptic. Not Old Church Slavonic. And especially not English. This fact alone PROVES that these other languages are inventions of SATAN and CONDEMNED BY GOD.
So whatever later so-called Popes may have said about the use of Latin, it IS NOT TRADITIONAL!!!
And even further, linguists have shown that Nero--who is identified by some biblical scholars as the archetype of Antichrist in Revelation--spoke Latin. Do you really think God would want you to be using the Antichrists language--IN A CHURCH?????
FACT: The traditional Roman Mass was celebrated in catacombs, NOT churches!!!
Above ground churches are a LATE development in the Roman church which date to the legalization of Christianity by Constantine. They were NEVER part of the original Roman rite!
So what was so wrong with the church going above ground? Above ground is where PAGAN temples were built. And in order to appease and get along with their new false-god worshiping neighbors, modernist Romans started to build unholy ecumenical shrines that confirmed and incorporated their wrong and idolatrous ideas. Dont just take my word for it--just ask a Jehovahs Witness--even theyll tell you its true!!!
The Pantheon for instance, was a PAGAN Roman temple which was reconsecrated as a church by Pope Boniface in A.D. 609!! Pagan building, Catholic building--whats the difference, right?? Then in the reign of Pope Zacharias (741-752) another church was built on the ruins of a pagan temple and called Santa Maria sopra Minerva. Minerva was a Roman goddess--many Catholics DIED HORRIBLE DEATHS rather than offer a tiny pinch of incense to her. And yet their supposedly Christian descendants NAMED a church after her!!! Even the ecumaniacs at Assisi never did anything like this--put a false goddess name ON PAR with the Virgin Mary, Mother of God!!!!
In accord with holy tradition therefore, we must reject any and all above-ground church structures, in accordance with the true traditional practice of the Roman church. Unfortunately, funding issues and zoning laws in our locality have so far prevented us from excavating new catacombs in our area, so we are temporarily headquartered behind the water heater in our basement.
FACT: Pope Gregory the Great was a liturgical reformer
Neotrads love to say their Mass goes back to Pope Gregory I in the 6th century. But how much do they REALLY know about this ultraliberal legislator who helped solidify the final destruction of the TRUE traditional Roman Rite?
Even a pope firmly entrenched in the Vulgar Mass, Benedict XIV said that no pope has added to, or changed the Canon since St. Gregory. He thus ADMITS that St. Gregory changed the Canon!!!
Gregorys biographer John the Deacon tells us that Gregory collected the Sacramentary of Gelasius in one book, leaving out much, changing little, adding something for the exposition of the Gospels.
Gregory also moved the Our Father from the end of the Mass to the Canon. He also added the phrase Diesque nostros to the Hanc Igitur prayer. This is the prayer that says Graciously accept, then, we beseech You, O Lord, this service of our worship and that of all Your household--it asks God to accept ALL forms of worship!!! Incredibly, Gregory did NOT change this part of the prayer despite its obviously heretical approval of false worship!!!
To make matters worse, in a letter published in Bedes Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation, Pope Gregory approved a totally untraditional ecumenical concoction for use in Britain:
Your brotherhood knoweth the custom of the Church of Rome But it pleaseth me, if you have found anything, be it in the Church of Rome, or France or any other zealously choose and spread in the Church of the English the things that you have been able to gather from many Churches. So instead of demanding that Augustine use the traditional Greek Mass to England, Gregory just had him cobble together an ecumenical liturgy from every country and zealously spread it. Neotrads complain to no end about Cranmers Protestant Mass in England, but Gregory started the trend a thousand years before!!! Cranmer just finished the job!! We also have a reliable source from Italy who informs us that a recently excavated mosaic clearly depicts Pope Gregory kissing Vergils Aeneid!!!
But to answer the question on everyones mind, was Pope Gregory a Freemason? Despite apparently accurate claims that the organization did not even exist back then, the Freemasons THEMSELVES claim otherwise, and say that they date back to Ancient Egypt. It is therefore POSSIBLE that a fifth century pope may have joined the organization. Significtantly, our top researchers at the Society have NOT been able to DISPROVE Gregorys membership in the Masons, and, most importantly, NEITHER HAS ANYONE ELSE. Prudence therefore DEMANDS that we treat all of his liturgical reforms as HIGHLY suspect and potentially heretical.
Pope Gregory was the Great all right--the great changer of the Canon and the great ecumaniac to boot!!
Fact: the people behind the Latin Mass promoted Dialogue with FALSE RELIGIONS!!!
Neotrad "Saint" Jerome, who imposed his Vulgate Bible on the Latin world, took instruction in Hebrew and Talmud from Jewish scholars, and even followed their opinions (e.g. in his Commentary on Joel iv. 11). Says the Jewish Encyclopedia: Although other Church Fathers quote Jewish traditions none equal Jerome in the number and faithfulness of their quotations. He was being faithful to Judaisms traditions, while at the same time ruining Catholic traditions by translating the Bible into the evil language of Nero!
Most shockingly of all, Jerome also wrote a book called Dialogue with the Luciferians--LUCIFER????? Is there NO ONE these neotrads won't DIALOGUE with????!!!! At what point do we just say--NO... WE DON'T DIALOGUE WITH LUCIFERIANS??!!!
By the way, some snide sarcastic modernist type pointed out that our hero St. Justin Martyr also wrote a Dialogue with Trypho the Jew. Yeah, we knew that. So what?
FACT: St. Paul said to hold fast to the traditions you have been taught
Ask yourself--are todays Novus Ordo neocons and Latin Mass neotrads REALLY holding fast to TRUE ROMAN tradition? DID they hold fast to the Greek liturgy that St. Peter and Paul brought to Rome? Or are they just too happily clueless in their little Gallicanized-Roman Rite and its "ecumenical" combination of Latin and Frankish??
ANNOUNCEMENT: Real Traditionalist Priests wanted!!
No priest has of yet had the courage to join our brave and heroic movement. So we are currently looking for Greek-speaking priests who may have said the liturgy of St. Justin Martyr in their youth. Candidates must be able to prove Apostolic Succession directly from Popes Peter, Linus, Cletus or Clement. NOTE: Greek Catholic/ Greek Orthodox Rite priests NEED NOT APPLY!!! We have arbitrarily decided not to like you guys either.
DISCLAIMER: This website is provided for purposes of disinformation only. It does not represent the views of Latin Mass neotrads Claudio and Jamie Salvucci, although it darn well should. All Rites reserved.
In case you missed it--
A little sarcasm here and there...
OK, this is kind of funny. Except of course for Mediator Dei's condemnations of archeologism and of "leapfrogging organic development" to get to a more "pristine" era of the early Church.
With this understood, I can laugh at this a little bit.
Glad to hear that you understand satire when you read it.
I actually thought about something like this a long while ago after discovering Catholic Trads here on FR. I never had the talent to do it.
Die-hard Vulgate Pope John VIII even allowed Cyril and Methodius to translate the liturgy for the Slavs into Old Church Slavonic!!
And he allowed them to do it for the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great (and Pre-Sanctified Gifts) to boot! I belong to a radical Church!
Even the ecumaniacs at Assisi never did anything like this--put a false goddess name ON PAR with the Virgin Mary, Mother of God!!!!
and neotrad St. Jerome are my favorite parts.
Reminds me of the argument in the "Life of Brian" between the Peoples front of Judea and the Judean Peoples' Front.
Dear God, spare us the leaven of the Pharisees!
That was done by a Freeper, you know...
hilarious! I loved the part about Gregory I possibly being a mason. He's my favorite pope BTW.
I shouldn't read this things before I've had a full cup of tea.
Anyone we know???
I'm the founding and presently only member of the Order of Melchisidech. My order is devoted to offering sacrifice as it really should be offered and it is currently researching ancient biblical texts and ordinance maps of the Holy Land in order to locate the exact site where Melchisidech performed his holy rituals. It is there that we will pitch our tent.
The modern priesthood is infested with faggots as witnessed by the fondness for lace, gold vestments and incense. Real priests wear camel skins and coarse undergarments.
All that is now lacking for the real priesthood to be re-established is an appropriate sacrifice.
Any Freeper who has a sheep or a goat should email me.
Well, for the "ass" part, you could begin in almost any Chancery office in the US.
However, Miss Manners requires that you NOT take direct action to acquire the jawbone...
Calm down -- it was probably the Eclogues (one of which gave Vergil the honorific of the "Pagan Prophet in the Middle Ages).
Thats what happened to the Philstines, they read them a Chancery report on Stewardship, and they dropped like flies...
Do I smell cover-up? Rumor has it that Matthew's Gospel was originally written in Aramaic. Could the original have been deliberately suppressed???
I thought this was supposed to be a "humor" thread!???
Sign me up!
We probably blew up their server.
The Vulgar Mass.
Sorry, that's funny. And it IS far more legit than referring to "the NO Mass."
Thanks for this entertaining commentary on traditionalism.
Entering Chancery offices only requires a few items: a gas mask to ward off the inevitable manure odors, and a silver crucifix.
Won't hurt to have a nice S&W in the pocket, just in case.
Finding asses, bozos, pinkoleftyLiturgywonks, and various other social detritus in Chanceries is generally a higher-percentage game than in, say, a newspaper office. IOW, while both are target-rich environments, I think Chanceries are slightly MORE rich.
And I suspect that finding a jawbone or two which is available for the taking won't be that hard, either. I don't doubt for a minute that some employees actually died during their slumbers at those offices, allowing removal of a few jawbones without doing violence to the living.
Ever heard of Trent?
Be sure to drop by the Engineering Office for our special loads: silver hollowpoints with wooden ballistic caps. Useful against both werewolves AND vampires. You never know what you're going to find in the chancery office.
-AB (CE, TTGC)
Thanks for the ping ... I don't say it often enough that I appreciate it.
Well, it's been hours since this has been posted and I can't seem to get through to the server -- hope it hasn't been Traditionally FReeped too badly :D
You have those in .357, .38Spl., 9mm, 40mm, and .45ACP?
Bread and Wine. Melchisidech offered bread and wine. Forget Sampson and the ass's jawbone (he was sooo nouveau Judge's period), you need to find a good vintage wine and someone who bakes fresh bread everyday.
It was done by a FReeper you know. ;-)
Good hunting, Slayer!
Dies are no problem. BOTH the largest US diemakers are right up the road from me--around 50 miles.
>>>>Ever heard of Trent?
This person who posted this I assume is joking unless he is smoking something funny
I assume you are joking with you blog- I Hope so at least
The post/blog is meant as a spoof of certain FReepers (and others) who seem to think that the Rite of Trent is engraved on the tablets handed to Moses.
You can read this any way you wish, I suppose.
Please remove me from this ping list.
I do not appreciate pings concerning "traditionalists", vatican II sucks, etc.
If you read the article as HUMOR/SPOOF, then I don't understand your request.
If you did NOT read the article as HUMOR/SPOOF, you need glasses.
How bout I just don't wanna read it? No glasses required.
>>How bout I just don't wanna read it? No glasses required.
Sorry, just being grumpy!
Well, if you want a "grumpy" contest, feel free.
Although there are others on this board who easily have first-rank "grumpy" nominations, I am no mean "grumper" myself.
PS--you're off the pinglist.
Sorry for being late to the party here, but my apologies for the busted link. The SSPI site was posted on an account we had already dropped. As soon as the blogs started picking it up the ISP finally decided to yank it.
For future reference, the new link is here:
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