Posted on 09/27/2005 9:39:02 AM PDT by NYer
"the fact remains that it was CREDO in Latin" -- let me ask you this, then. It IS credo, is it not? When did 'WE believe' start? Isn't it part of the Vat II shenanigans? Like holding hands at the Our Father? It smells like that ....
Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum, et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit, qui cum Patre et Filio, simul adoratur, et conglorifcatur, qui locutus est per Prophetas.
There are no "et's" before the "qui's".
The Latin translation of the Greek has always been "consubstantialem Patri", not "conessentialem Patri".
That's a very good point, and I think few people are aware of this. OCP and other printers/publishers are also making a fortune off of these things.
"The Latin translation of the Greek has always been "consubstantialem Patri""
I didn't say it wasn't, H.
" not "conessentialem Patri".
I didn't know "conessentialem" was a word. In any case, when I was a classics major, "substantia" meant "essence"; generally substance is "materia".
In the original Greek, the plural form was used. However, that was not used for liturgical purposes (to my knowledge) and the singular form was used in Greek and also in Latin. The Nicene Creed was initially "designed" as a statement to be made jointly by the orthodox bishops as a sort of pledge of orthodoxy. When it entered liturgical use, it seems to have shifted to the singular, like the Apostles' Creed.
Using "We" in the modern English translation was, as you note, ideologically motivated. One of the main goals of VatII (well, at least of the "spirit of VatII") was to downplay the individual aspect of Christianity and make it a sort of corporate thing where we all hold hands in that big ol collective and dance around the dinner table with Sister Snowflake.
One of the reasons that we have so many awful problems in the Church now, btw, is the downplaying of the individual and his responsibility and his relationship with the Lord. Making it all a collective endeavor took away anybody's individual responsibility for sin, prayer, their personal spiritual lives, etc. It was all institutional. And witness the results of 4 decades of this attitude.
A heads up.
I read today (on the Papabile blog, I think), a comment from someone who said that Rocco's version of these translations was already passe and that those who have modified them are holding them "in pectore." He seemed to know what the issues were and I took this as genuine. One comment was that "pro multis" may not appear as it is being bandied about and may, indeed, be finalized as "for many." In other words, I am not putting too much stead in these translations. I'm sure this is being discussed even now and is being kept top secret. The result will be a more faithful rendering of the Latin. The other comment was that the English translation was the benchmark for all other languages. Apparently, the version rendered will have wide impact and the Committee knows this. I think we have a right to be hopeful.
Cheers,
F
Call me when they remove the filioque.
Anathema was pronounced on ANYONE who changed the creed.
Yes, on anyone who changed the Creed composed of the Fathers at Nicaea. The Orthodox don't use the Nicene Creed either, but the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed. You're just as "anathema" as we are.
Since a VALID Church Council made the change, that is a different story. Latins can't say the same.
Good Try, NO CIGAR.
What about — “From thence He will come to judge the quick and the dead.” Which might be the Apostle’s Creed, which I learned as a child. If I do not READ the Creed, word for word, I will say this. Oh, and ‘He descended into Hell’ too.
Brains are so hard to train.
Just curious - why are you posting to a thread from 2 years ago? Did it pop up on a search or has there been some recent development? Thanks
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