Posted on 12/09/2005 11:58:25 PM PST by HarleyD
You cite ONE passage and put all your works in that basket. No one does not see that the FRUIT of their salvation is important or that God will not reward the diligent working out of His ordained plans.
Simply scripture is clear that salvation MUST precede your works or it is of no eternal benefit. You say you must work to grow your faith> But God says what is NOT OF FAITH is sin.,
So YOU, not Luther, have an huge eternal problem
This is what you can expect
Jesus never taught salvation by works, in fact he taught just the opposite
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them
. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
What is the will of the Father?
Scripture says this is His will for men
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The will of the Father is that we believe, so what does Jesus say to the man that thought his works would earn him salvation ?
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. That mans WORKS which he did in the name of Jesus were called SIN (iniquity) by Christ. Why?He did them IN THE NAME OF CHRIST , WHY WERE THEY SIN?
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
He that is not with me is against me : and he that gathereth not with me scattereth . Luke 11:23
"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God .
But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6
The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD but the prayer of the upright [is] his delight. Proverbs 15:8
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God , purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God ? Hebrew 9:14
If you are counting on works of your righteousness to increase your faith, you look in the wrong place because the unsaved can never please God. YOUR FAITH IS IN YOUR WORKS, THAT IS THE ONLY FAITH YOU BUILD, FAITH IN YOURSELF . That will never save you .
So can anyone explain the passages I mentioned in 20? That means going by the gospel texts in question, not posting a loosely fitting collection of quotes from other contexts.
One substantive thing you say in your post is misunderstood by you. We all agree that faith precedes all good work, that good work is a fruit of faith and that we will be judged by the fruits of our faith, which is work. So Matthew 7:20 and 7:21 is exactly waht I am saying. Do you suppose Luther has read those?
Will one who professed faith and subsequent to that violated the commandments of Christ go to heaven?
Funny. I don't see the word "tradition" mentioned. It seems to me it is more like "I am the vine you are the branches" type thing.
What is tradition to you? It is what is common among human hearts that live nearby. No, the word itself is not mentioned, but I don't see that interpretation as aberrant.
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." -- 1 Peter 1:18-23"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
The traditions of men are anything that attempts to detract from salvation by God's grace through faith alone and clutter the heart with non-essentials which ultimately serve only to rob God of His glory.
Tradition is intrinsically tied in with authority. Either we hear the voices of men, or we hear the voice of God.
Tradition is in opposition to true faith which has been given from before the foundation of the world according to the good pleasure of God alone.
Thus faith, unlike tradition, does not require men's righteousness to obtain it because men have no righteousness apart from the inward working of the Holy Ghost in those whom God has regenerated from sons of Adam into the sheep of His flock, by His will alone.
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." -- 2 Timothy 3:14-17."But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
Yes, tradition goes hand in hand with authority. The tradition of the Church received its authority from Christ, as we read in Matthew 18:
18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.But I don't want to distract you from pondering when the work of the Holy Spirit occured in Mary.
No distraction. I ponder Mary hardly at all.
As the following excellent link reminds us, Mary was blessed among women, not above women...
As long as you're interested, another wonderful book I recommend is "The Cult of the Virgin Mary: Psychological Origins" by Michael P. Carroll which details how Marianology has its roots in the ancient Cult of Cybele.
Rejoice, Annalex. God's gift of grace is so much simpler than some would make it.
Have we met?
I am a naturally happy guy, most people say.
Ignorant mariophobic tracts notwithstanding ("above " or "among", she is the only mother of God I know), when do you think the Holy Ghost worked in her?
To refer to Mary as the mother of God implies that Mary preceded God, something we both know to be incorrect.
God required a vessel to bring Christ to earth, and so Mary became the mother of the man, Jesus.
God could have used a space ship.
Would you have knelt to a space ship?
That is just it, the one that worked IN her is the one to be praised and adored. She was the object of the grace of God, not the originator she was the beneficiary of Gods grace. Praise the one that works in her not the vessel that received the blessing.
Mary was the mother of Christ, and what did He say of that ?
When She called to have him come to her and stop teaching , thinking He was insane, Jesus said this .
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
So my friend I am as loved by him as His mother and His brethren by Faith
Luk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
I am blessed !
from Rome
"As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race"(Pope Benedict XV,Inter Sodalicia, March 22, 1918).
The above statement makes the wrong person savior
the Mary of Catholicism is not the Mary of the Bible.The woman has been changed by Catholicism into something different than the real. She is presented by such as the sinless virgin, Mother of the Church, Mother of Mercies, Door of Paradise, Our Lady of Fatima, The Virgin of the Poor, Lady of the Roses, Co-redemptrix, Queen of Peace, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Mediatrix of all Graces, Mother of God, Refuge of Sinners, Gate of Heaven, Queen of Heaven.
Your church teaches to come to jesus through Mary, but no where is that idea seen in scripture
Jesus tells us we can just COME, we do not need a mediator to come to Him
"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink (John 7:37).
Your church teaches it is she that dispenses grace not God . (perhaps why you can not define grace?)
"As St. Irenaeus says, ‘Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.' Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert ...: ‘The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith.' Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary ‘Mother of the living' and frequently claim: ‘Death through Eve, life through Mary' (Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 125
You have a savior, but it is not Christ.
You seem to indicate that you grow your own faith and that you have Mary as a sinless savior.
Meditate on that for a time .
Regarding Mary, I just read what is in the scripture, and leave speculation about spaceships to Luther. Jesus is her son, and He is God. She is the Mother of God.
I don't dispute that Jesus loves you. Since His love is infinite, we cannot compare His love for His mother to His love to you. I don't think you should try the comparison either.
You are definitely blessed by your baptism and His word. Do all generation call you blessed?
Yes, "to Christ through Mary" is how many Catholics get closer to Jesus, as she is pleading for us to Him. But no, she is not Savior, this is your speculation over what St. Ireneus said. She is His mother though.
Are you a Monophysite heretic?
No, why? Are you Nestorian?
Well, ya know, mother of god thing with no humanity and all.
I prefer crypto-Nestorian.
Was the Son created?
No, of course not.
So the preexistant Son, the autotheos, could not be born of Mary since that would imply a creaturely nature to his divinity.
The moment of incarnation, when the Holy Spirit energized the union of God and man, was when the egg divided into the embryo. Do you agree?
If so, I will grant you "Mary the mother of Godman". Mary the mother of God is heretical since it is incomplete and leads towards Monarchianism.
Well said. And I only had to look up one word. :-)
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