(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory

The doctrine of purgatory effectively means Jesus isn't good enough.

Who says that Purgatory has anything to do with Jesus not being good enough? You obviously have no idea what Purgatory is all about. I would urge you to read several of the Catholic posts on this thread *specifically* dealing with the doctrine before you launch on it.

Meantime, defend your statement. Using *Catholic* sources on the doctrine of Purgatory (as opposed to other sources which misunderstand it as much as you do yourself), explain to us how it makes Jesus' sacrifice on the cross insufficient...

Coming to God out of fear of hell is pretty ridiculous and selfish in my opinion. He seems like a fake Christian to me as well.

"But the Word is a two-edged sword."

Book, Chapter and Verse, please.

Arguments glorify men. Soul winning for the Lord glorifies God.

Default is mine. :o)

Arguments glorify men. Soul winning for the Lord glorifies God.

Sola Scriptura is an argument. I wasn't sure if you were aware of this.

Sorry about the double post. I was cleaning my keyboard.

Jonathan Edwards has a rep of a fire and brimstone preacher, but he is actually a model of a true conversion....based on the love of Christ, not of a fear of hell.

He did entire sermons on the loveliness and beauty of Christ. Seems like something this man should read.

Christ did it all on the Cross.

We don't need purification.

We will be given new glorified bodies, but purification will not be involved.

Christ died for all our sins, past, present, and future.

"Also a "near death experience" is NOT death."

No, but the stage III brain death of those in halting operations IS death.

Agreed and well stated:

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/sirach/sirach34.htm

Sirach 34

6
Unless it be a vision specially sent by the Most High, fix not your heart on it;
7
For dreams have led many astray, and those who believed in them have perished.

You are seriously implying that no one on this thread has shown Scriptural references for Purgatory? Or are you syaing because it's not named as such, that it cannot be? If that is so, then there can be no Trinity nor any Incarnation.

As far as God being impressed with anything, I will not say what He is or is not impressed with, but I imagine He knew what He was doing when He founded His Church. A Church you accuse of being a "web of lies." An accusation you have not shown a single shred of proof of.

As for the narrow path, Christ instituted the Church, you accuse Him of abandoning it. I would not want to be in yoour shoes FRiend.

Well we all have our beliefs. You think your church is the only right one - and many would disagree. I don't remember that Christ was a Christian - that church was started by people - Christ had plenty of time to start a specific religion if he wanted to...

The Sunday Christian service, as opposed to the Saturday Sabbath, is also not in the Bible.

Indeed, Saturday Sabbath is one of the TEN COMMANDMENTS!
There's nothing in the Bible that says to move the Sabbath to Sunday.
But that's when almost all Christians celebrate.
Almost no Christians honor the Biblical Sabbath day and keep it holy. Almost all Christians disregard that Commandment of the 10 Commandments, and the hundred or more times the Sabbath is stressed in the Bible.

There's no BIBLICAL authority to stop celebrating the Saturday Sabbath, and no BIBLICAL authority, at all, for Christian worship on Sunday. That's pure Catholic tradition.

You should add that to your list.

Also, the Bible DOES say, explicitly, from the mouth of Jesus no less, NO DIVORCE. Do most Christian denominations follow that EXPLICIT rule?

St Don Bosco's prophetic dream of the Two Pillars. The Holy Father takes mooring to the Pillar of the Blessed Virgin, and the much taller Pillar of the Holy Eucharist.

Jesus and the Pope

The Pope is shot, May 13, 1982

Pope John Paul II at Fatima in 1982. Sister Lucia died on 13 February 2005, on the same day of the 1917 Fatima apparitions.

Before the statue of Our Lady of Fátima, John Paul II recites the Act of consecration and entrustment of the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

The Holy Spirit works through hearts and minds to undo a horrific evil. Through the meticulous work of Cardinal Joe Ratzinger and simple yet unabashed Cardinal Francis Arinze, the Pope clearly establishes that Catholics cannot receive the Holy Eucharist whilst support abortion, homosexuality, and/or euthanasia.

This picture, printed in Time magazine (June 21, 2004, p. 34), has not been touched up or altered

This remarkable photograph of a tiny preborn baby in his unruptured amniotic sac was taken after surgery for an ectopic (tubal) pregnancy at the University of Minnesota by medical photographer, Robert Wolfe, in 1972. This picture demonstrates the remarkable early development of a preborn baby at only six weeks after conception.

2004 Electoral College Map by County

"Do not be afraid."

Habemus Papam!

Two Pillars Reprinted from DON BOSCO'S MADONNA St. John Bosco's Dream

IT WAS MAY 30, 1862, penultimate day of the Month of Our Lady. After night prayers, before hundreds of boys went to bed, Don Bosco started like this:

"I want to recount to you a dream. It is true that he who dreams does not reason. In spite of that, I, who would recount to you even my sins if I were not afraid of making all of you run away and making the house collapse, will narrate it to you for your spiritual benefit. I had this dream a few days ago.

"Just imagine you were with me on a sea beach, or rather, on an isolated cliff and you did not see any other landscape except that under your feet. On that vast surface of water there was an innumerable multitude of ships arrayed for battle. Their prows were equipped with a beak of sharp iron in the form of a knife or arrow which hurt and pierced through where it clove. These ships were armed with cannons, equipped with guns and arms of every kind, incendiary materials and even books. They advanced against another ship much bigger and taller than all of them, trying to ram it with their beaks, to set fire to it, or at least to cause any possible damage to it.

"Behind that majestic flag-ship, equipped on all sides, there was a convoy of many small ships and sailing vessels which took signals of command from her and carried out operations of self-defense from the enemy fleets. The wind was against them and the agitated sea seemed to favor the enemy.

"In the midst of the immense expanse of the sea there sprung up from the waves two very high pillars, one a little distant from the other. On top of one there was the statue of the Immaculate Virgin, at whose feet hung a large placard with this writing on it: Auxilium Christianorum (Help of Christians)—over the other which was much bigger and higher, there was a Host proportionate in size to the pillar, and below it there was a placard with these words: Salus Credentium (Salvation of Believers).

"The Supreme Commander on the big ship, who was the Roman Pontiff, saw the fury of the enemies and the crucial situation in which his faithful were involved. He decided to convene around him the pilots of the minor ships (that is, the bishops) for consultation and measures to be taken. All the pilots went up and assembled around the Pope.

"They held council, but since the wind became more furious, they were sent back to control their own ships (Vatican Council I).

"The situation having improved a little bit, the Pope assembled the pilots around him for the second time, while the flag ship continues its course (Vatican Council II). But the tempest became frightful again.

"The Pope remained at the helm and exerted all his efforts to steer the ship to the middle of the pillars from the top of which were hung all around many anchors and huge hooks attached to chains.

"All the enemy ships made a rush to attack her and went all out to capture and sink her. Some with writings, books, and incendiary materials with which they were fully armed were trying to slant her; others with their cannons, guns and beaks. The fighting became more and more fierce. With the prows, the enemy made violent thrusts, but their efforts and assaults proved ineffective. Their repeated attempts proved unavailing. All their exertions and munitions ended in sheer waste. The big flag ship proceeded safe and undeterred in her course. It happened that now and then she received formidable hits which made large and deep cracks in her sides. But no sooner had she inhaled a puff of air (meaning Holy Ghost) coming from the two pillars than the damages and the gaps were closed and the rifts plugged. In the meanwhile, the cannons of the attackers burst, the guns snapped, so also were other arms, and the books were destroyed. Many ships were attacking from close quarters with small arms: with the hands, with blasphemies and curses.

"Somehow or other, the Pope was hit seriously and fell down. Once those around him went to his rescue and lifted him. The Pope was hit the second time. He fell down again and expired. A shout of victory and jubilation arose from the enemies. There was rejoicing in their ships. But immediately after the death of the Pontiff, another Pope was installed in his place. The assembled pilots had elected him so quickly that the notice of the death of the Pope arrived with the notice of the election of his successor. The adversaries began to lose courage.

"By dislodging and overcoming every obstacle, the new Pope managed to steer the ship up to the two pillars and on arriving between them, he tied it with a chain which hung from the prow to an anchor of the pillar on top of which there was the Host; then with another chain he tied it from the side opposite to another anchor attached to the pillar on which was placed the Immaculate Virgin.

"Now followed a great upheaval. All the ships which up to that moment had fought against the flag ship on which the Pope sat, took to flight, and dispersed, knocked and clashed with one another. Some went down and tried to sink the others. Some small ships which had fought bravely together with the Pope came along with the former to tie themselves to those pillars.

"Many other ships which had retreated for fear of battle remained at a great distance, watching prudently, until the wreckage of all the shattered ships were swallowed up in the gorges of the sea. Then they moved very slowly in the direction of the two pillars. As soon as they arrived there, they attached themselves to the hanging hooks and remained there happy and safe, together with the flag ship on which the Pope was. A great calm reigned in the sea, a supreme calm it was."

At this point Don Bosco asked Don Rua, "What do you think of this narrative?"

Don Rua replied: "It seems to me that the ship of the Pope is the Church, whose head he is; the other ships are men; the sea is this world. Those who defend the huge ship are good people who love the Holy See; the others are her enemies who, with all sorts of arms, make attempts to annihilate her. The two pillars of salvation seem to be devotion to Mary Immaculate and the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist."

Don Rua did not mention the Pope who fell dead, so Don Bosco was also silent on this point. He only added: "You have said well. Only one expression must be corrected: the enemies' ships are the persecutions; they prepare very serious troubles for the Church. What has taken place so far is almost nothing compared with what will occur. Her enemies are the ships which make an attempt to sink the flag ship, if they can. There remain only two means to save ourselves in the midst of so much danger and confusion. Devotion to Mary Immaculate, frequent Confession and Communion. It is necessary to use every means and try our best to practice them and have them practiced everywhere and by all. Good night!"

Slowly and silently, the boys swarmed out to rest with the dream of the Two Pillars in their hearts: the filial love of Our Lady, who is the Mother of Adolescents and the sacramental life, which is the Eucharist. With these two great loves, their inclusion in the Church (attachment to the Pope) becomes joyful and beautiful—even if they have to fight. So boys perhaps do not like adventure and struggle?

No, the Church was instituted by Christ: "...and on this Rock I will build my Church..." Words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 16:18. The Church is founded by Christ, and it is He who is its head (Ephesians 5:23)and its body (same verse). He who identifies Himself as "the Truth" (John 14:06) and the Holy Spirit, speaking through St. Paul, calls the Church the "pillar and ground of the Truth" (1Timothy 3:15). Jesus is the Rock upon which the Church rests, and many times in Scripture the allusion to a "rock" is an allusion to Christ.

Even so, He established an earthly authority for the Church upon the shoulders of Peter, whom He deliberately names Rock (Kepha in Aramaic) to signify that, although Peter is only a man, he is to be vested with the power of Christ in leading His Church here on earth after Jesus' ascension. Lest Peter, the other Apostles or their successors take the credit (and lest you misinterpret what I'm saying!), it is clear from Scripture that Peter, the Apostles and their successors are to guide the Church through the power of the Holy Spirit, who will lead the Church into "all the Truth" (John 16:12-15). And Jesus promised that He would be with the Church "all days" even unto the end of time (Matthew 28:20), thus indicating that, though the men leading the Church are only men, they are guided by God, and cannot fail in their transmission of the true Faith. It is thus a false charge to say that the Church is merely led by men and therefore is of no account. It is led visibly by men who, in turn, are spiritually led by God in matters of the Faith, and are exercising their ministries by the authority of God and according to His express wish.

Their authority pertains to many things, including the ability, guided by the Holy Spirit, to determine the canon of Scripture and to interpret Scripture. You unwittingly acknowledge their authority every time you cite the New Testament as authoritative, even while you implicitly reject their equal authority to determine the Old Testament canon by using a text that is seven books short of what they determined the canonical list to be. You can't even demonstrate *why* you hold to the New Testament canon you use, and must resort to circumlocutions to defend it, because you dare not acknowledge the true authority behind its legitimacy: the Catholic bishops and popes of the fourth and fifth Centuries, successors, respectively, of the Apostles and their earthly head, Simon Peter.

Therefore, you assert that the Church doesn't matter, because it was only started by mere people. I urge you to read this thread again, carefully, all the way through the posts, and "pull on the string" of its implications. Then, read the early history of the Church, especially the writings of the Fathers. Test them against Scripture, and juxtapose their testimony against *both* the modern Catholic Church's teachings and the teachings of your own denomination. You'll be amazed at what you discover, and, if you have the courage to see Truth as Christ Himself presented it, you will soon have a different opinion of things than you do at present. Accept the Truth, for in so doing, you are accepting Christ Himself!

But it's all so confusing. I have people telling me different things all the time... How do i know who's right?

"How do i know who's right?"

I go through similar anxiety. Prayer and fasting helps. I also ask for the gift of Hope which I know that the Holy Spirit would never deny.

You and I are His sheep, and we shall know Him by the sound of His voice. I know this because He told us so. In humility we accept Him.

John 10:27

"Just because they were doing it in the first century doesn't make it right. There were a lot of things being done wrong by Christians and Paul addressed some of them but I don't think it would have been possible for him to have addressed them all."

The point is that such beliefs are NOT, as is laughably claimed, inventions of the 15th or 5th century church, but rather how the church INITIALLY understood the teachings of the apostles EVEN WHILE the apostles were still around to correct them.

Consider the sequence of events:

1. From its inception, the church believed in concepts such as atonement, prayers for the dead, and an intermediate, temporal place between Heaven and Hell.

2. The church assembles the bible, using as the primary criteria for what constitutes the bible that which corresponds to its traditions.

3. Martin Luther preaches against such doctrines as contrary to HIS understanding of the mercy of Christ.

4. Martin Luther is shown explicit passages from the bible which very plainly disprove his theories, and concedes that those passages irrefutable prove the correctness of the doctrines that he hates.

5. Martin Luther removes from the bible 14 books, including Revelations, James, 1-2-3 Peter, Hebrews, Maccabees and Wisdom, arguing that they couldn't POSSIBLY be authentic scripture, because their teachings are inconsistent with HIS interpretation of the remaining scripture.

6. This is the truly hysterical part: After having REMOVED parts of the bible which he disagrees with, Martin Luther THEN claims that any doctrine not found in what remains of the bible must be a false doctrine.

7. Unfortunately for Luther's plans, the Catholic Church finds plenty in the remaining scripture to establish the truthfulness of the doctrines which Luther so hated.

8. Luther's followers then claim that the Catholic Church is MISINTERPRETING scripture, claiming that the early church did not understand the bible to say what the post-reformation church proclaims it to say.

9. Archaeological and textual evidence prove that the Catholic Church's doctrines were, roughly, practiced since the time of the apostles.

10. Those unwilling to heed what the church founded by Jesus proclaims now assert that it doesn't matter first-century Christians did; just because they did doesn't make it right.

The bible proclaims it to be true. History proclaims it has always been held as true. The Protestant bible, despite efforts to purge it of testimony that it is true, still proclaims it to be true. But RoadTest knows it to be false?

What an idiot."""

Either that, or he had an experience of the world beyond that gives him insight neither you or I have.

I'm not here to change your faith but I have a couple of points.

God changed the names of a lot of people in the Bible, Jesus had two Simons on his hands, could he have changed Peter's name to avoid confusion.

I think the "Kingdom of Heaven" may be different than heaven. Doesn't Jesus describe the Kingdom of Heaven as being like yeast and a mustard seed. I think the Kingdom of Heaven is more an allegory describing faith than the actual location of heaven. I am not a theologian but could the keys to the kingdom of heaven be the knowledge that Jesus gave him or the Holy Spirit.

The Bible describes Jesus as the chief cornerstone of the church. I think there is some room for interpretation when he has his discussion with Peter but that seems pretty clear.