The Lost Soul of Scott Hahn

The Berean Beacon ^ | John W. Robbins

[Campion]

So then according to your theology Christ is unnecessary for salvation ?

According to your theology, are "knowledge of Christ" and "Christ" two ways of saying the same thing?

[Campion]

It doesn't say that the Church, sacraments or history can do that.

The man that verse was written to had both church and sacraments already.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It doesn't say that the Church, sacraments or history can do that. It is only through the Scriptures that God has revealed His plan of salvation. The Scriptures are perspicuous in all that relates to salvation and one does not need a professional class to interpret it. The Holy Spirit is sufficient for the task.

Amen. And those with ears to hear and eyes to see, all given by God, will hear and understand and believe.

[blue-duncan]

"The man that verse was written to had both church and sacraments already"

He also had the scriptures and they were the only things mentioned that could make a person wise unto salvation. If the church, sacraments or history could, Paul would have added them.

[Campion]

If the church, sacraments or history could, Paul would have added them.

Why? He was writing to a Christian bishop whom he, himself, had appointed. "Church" and "sacraments" are obvious from the context.

I have no idea where you're getting history, from, though, unless you mean Timothy's personal history with Paul.

[Carolina]

Go to a protestant service. People take off their coats as an indication they intend to stay and pay some attention . See them sit with the bibles open to the passages to see if they are being taught in context and quoted correctly. To study means to concentrate on, investigate, discuss and look at other scriptures to see if it is correctly being applied.

So this is true of every Protestant?

By contrast with Catholics: That is not a STUDY that is a TEACHING that requires nothing more of the hearers than to swallow what is taught whole and without thinking or discernment.

So we Catholics across the board have no faculties of discernment or understanding because we just sit and listen?

Therefore, we must be mind-numbed robots. How do you know what goes on in the mind and heart of every Catholic?

[ears_to_hear]

Really? Where are these "clear" scriptures? You mean Mary wasn't speaking under inspiration in Luke 1:48-55?

Lets start a bit earlier

Luk 1:46 ¶ And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Mary needed a Savior , she acknowledged that need

It is clear that she did not understand the role of her son
Not understanding something is a sin?

She removed Him from the temple , Later she thought he was insane and she came to save him from those that would take him. Jesus rebuked her publicly.

Mar 3:31 ¶ There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
Mar 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
Mar 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mar 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Here is, 1. The disrespect which Christ’s kindred, according to the flesh, showed to him, when he was preaching (and they knew very well that he was then in his element); they not only stood without, having no desire to come in, and hear him, but they sent in a message to call him out to them (v. 31. 32), as if he must leave his work, to hearken to their impertinences; it is probable that they had no business with him, only sent for him on purpose to oblige him to break off, lest he should kill himself. He knew how far his strength would go, and preferred the salvation of souls before his own life, and soon after made it to appear with a witness; it was therefore an idle thing for them, under pretence of his sparing himself, to interrupt him; and it was worse, if really they had business with him, when they knew he preferred his business, as a Saviour, so much before any other business. Matthew Henry

Mary did not understand the role of Christ .

Mar 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
His family thought Him insane

Luk 11:27 ¶ And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, >and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

[blue-duncan]

""Church" and "sacraments" are obvious from the context."

There is nothing in the context of 2 Tim. 3 that would lead any one to think Paul was assuming church or sacraments in the context of salvation. The subject is proper doctrine and he says it is the scriptures that are able to make you, not only wise unto salvation but "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

This is just a continuation of his remarks in 2 Tim. 2:15, " Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."

Timothy was a young Pastor of the church and was having trouble because of his youth with his preaching and teaching. Paul was giving him, and by extension, us the encouragement that it isn't our age education, personality, or style that makes one wise unto salvation but the Word of God as illuminated by the Holy Spirit.

[pgyanke]

Your FReeper family is starting to think you're insane...

[ears_to_hear]

**The scriptures say that that is enough to make you wise unto salvation, 2 Tim. 3:15-17, "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
It doesn't say that the Church, sacraments or history can do that. It is only through the Scriptures that God has revealed His plan of salvation. The Scriptures are perspicuous in all that relates to salvation and one does not need a professional class to interpret it. The Holy Spirit is sufficient for the task.

Do not confuse people with the word of God. :)

No where does it say that men are saved through the church, But Catholics are saved by faith in their church alone

[InterestedQuestioner]

"She removed Him from the temple ,"


She took him home. You aren't seriously claiming this was a sin?

[Campion]

Mary needed a Savior , she acknowledged that need

So do we. Mary's salvation was accomplished through the foreseen merits of her Son.

Matthew Henry

I don't recognize any Protestant divines as having any authority to teach me, sorry. You're wasting your time by quoting them. If you want to preach the Bible alone, you don't need Matthew Henry.

But since you've already demonstrated your willingness to say that Scriptures say what they clearly don't say, I don't really care to listen to your teaching, either. I'm separating myself from false teachers, just like you told me to do.

[Campion]

Timothy was a young Pastor of the church and was having trouble because of his youth with his preaching and teaching. Paul was giving him, and by extension, us the encouragement that it isn't our age education, personality, or style that makes one wise unto salvation but the Word of God as illuminated by the Holy Spirit.

Which is fine, but you can't get from there to "you only need the Bible, you don't need the church or sacraments". Timothy had all three.

[Running On Empty]

You have given a clear picure of the difference between Catholic Sunday worship and others. Catholic worship centers around the Eucharist. Divided in two parts--the Scripture Readings (Liturgy of the Word) and the Eucharist. The "shadow reality" of this form is found in the last chapter of St. Luke: Their hearts burned in their breasts when He explained Scripture to them, but they RECOGNIZED Him in the breaking of the bread.

You are also right when you say that Catholics hold Bible studies and spiritual formation groups outside of the worship at Mass. Many such groups exist.

For those who are not Catholic re: having the Bible open when the Scriptures are read--every parish has access in the pews to a book of the Scriptural readings for each Mass of the year. In fact, because the readings are arranged in recurring 3-year cycles, parishioners can always know what the subject of readings will be, and can prepare and meditate ahead of time. Many commentaries are avalible for this.

There are 3 Readings at every Sunday Mass(daily Masses have 2). The first and second readings are from the OT and the Epistles. Between them, a Psalm is read. The third reading is from the Gospels. These readings are arranged thematically, so that they are linked together by a common "thread" of meaning.

We become very familiar with these Scriptures each renewed cycle of 3 years.

[r9etb]

I shudder to think of what Chief Priest John W. Robbins would have said about St. Paul.

The only response to this steaming pile comes from the Lord Himself:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luke 18:10-14)

[ears_to_hear]

Scott's interpretation makes much more sense than yours.

Only if the word of God is in error ( but then most of his readers would not know that

Lets look one more time

The problem is that gospel account says something like this: after the third cup is drunk Jesus says, "I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until I am entering into the kingdom of God." And it says, "Then they sang the psalms." Every Jew who knows the liturgy would expect: and then they went ahead and said the grace and the blessing and had the fourth cup which climaxed and consummated the Passover. But no, the gospel account say they sang the psalms and went out into the night.

For Scott's doctrine to work out the way he wants it he had to change that word..one word that changes the entire meaning of the verse and if read correctly slays his whole theory

Correct readings

Mat 26:29   But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Luk 22:18For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Now Scott contends the drinking of the wine from the sponge was the fourth cup..to have that "work? you have to mis quote the scripture and make it "ENTERING" as Jesus is still alive

Whereas you can see the actual text says He will not drink it untill he had ENTERED into HIS kingdom..Past tense...

Now I have quoted the KJV here are others

Luke 22:18 :: New International Version (NIV)
Luke 22 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

Luke 22:18 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Luke 22 18   for (1) I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."

Luke 22:18 :: American Standard Version (ASV)
Luke 22 18 for I say unto you, I shall not drink from henceforth of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Luke 22:18 :: Young's Literal Translation
Luke 22 18   for I say to you that I may not drink of the produce of the vine till the reign of God may come.'

Douay-Rheims
Luke 18 For I say to you, that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, till the kingdom of God come.

Now that one word changes Scotts whole premis..interesting what one word can do...The JW's changed one word and that made Michael Jesus....

Bold statement. However, you can't back it up. Jesus was priest and passover sacrifice on the cross. He is also the one who is the lamb, standing as if slain in Revelation. The cup of consummation is the cup drunk by the priest (Jesus) at the consummation of the passover sacrifice (Jesus).

Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

That vinegar was not the "fourth cup "and in his heart Scott knows this. ..or he is very deceived..That cup will be drunk at the marriage supper of the Lamb... Mat 22:2   The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

Rev 19:9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

That vinegar was not the "fourth cup "and in his heart Scott knows this. ..or he is very deceived..That cup will be drunk at the marriage supper of the Lamb...

Mat 22:2   The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

Rev 19:9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

And shame on Scott "it is finished "was the atonement ...The sacrifice was complete...there was no more that needed to be done...it was finished..

[Campion]

That vinegar was not the "fourth cup "and in his heart Scott knows this. ..or he is very deceived..That cup will be drunk at the marriage supper of the Lamb...

If you say it over and over again, maybe it will be true.

[ears_to_hear]

Mary needed a Savior , she acknowledged that need
So do we. Mary's salvation was accomplished through the foreseen merits of her Son

That may have been true of the OT saints, but they needed a Savior , a sinless person does not need a Savior

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Here is the problem there is only one truth not many competing truths .

Either Mary was sinless or the scriptures lie .

And the answer is????

[InterestedQuestioner]

"So then according to your theology Christ is unnecessary for salvation ?"

Sir, this is incorrect.

"No need for the great commission, all those apostles died in vain."

No. BTW, how do you know that most of the Apostles died for the faith?

But Catholics are saved by faith in their church alone"

Completely incorrect.

"No where does it say that men are saved through the church,

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her," (Ephesians 5:25)

Christ also speaks of the role in the Church as having authority in disputes:

"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. (Matt 18:17)

Look at the context, the Church is not an anarchical conglomeration of individuals. If he refuses to listen get two or three witnesses. If he still refuses to two or three people, take him to the Church. Note this is the last appeal. Christ invested the Church with authority. Notice also that the Church is the final appeal on the dispute--if he does not listen to the Church, treat the person as a pagan or tax-collector.

Note also that God appoints the authority within the Church:

"And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongue (1Co 12:28)

Also, Scripture says the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, not each and every individual's interpretation or misinterpretation of Scripture.

[ears_to_hear]

So we Catholics across the board have no faculties of discernment or understanding because we just sit and listen?
Therefore, we must be mind-numbed robots. How do you know what goes on in the mind and heart of every Catholic?

I assume then after church you all go home and open your bibles to see the context of the read scriptures and cross reference it with other old and new Testament verses . Not to do so of course would be being a mind numbed robot