The Lost Soul of Scott Hahn

The Berean Beacon ^ | John W. Robbins

[D-fendr]

This is a common difference I think in Protestant and Catholic - what "going to Sunday Church" is.

Protestant "Church" is more of a lecture/study group. Catholics have the Eucharist, Mass. There are Bible study groups, catechism study, etc. on other days in other places for Catholics.

It's two different basic reasons and ideas about "Sunday Worship Services."

This I think also relates to Scott H.'s conversion. I believe others have said that it was primarily about the Eucharist.

[ears_to_hear]

I see. You think the Bible is the Word of God.

Jesus is the Word of God. It's a common misconception

I think the word of God is the word of God, or do you deny the innerency of scripture?

Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Luk 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Without the word of God you can not know the Word of God in any meaningful way.If it makes you feel good to think that there is no need or command to read the scriptures go ahead , but know that the god you kneel before might just not be the God of Scripture.

[TomSmedley]

No observable conversions to the "reformed" persuasion observed.

Count me among the former Catholics who ended up in Geneva. interestingly enough, Catholic, Calvinist, and Orthodox Christians share a respect for the life of the mind, baptize infants, stress the need for Christian education, and for the real-world application of their faith. Anabaptists are better at developing navel views than world views.

[ears_to_hear]

LOL. Yeah, that's it, we're too stupid to buy a Bible, open it, and read it, so we just blindly swallow whatever Scott Hahn says. Whatever you want to believe, friend, you obviously are happy with your own made-up version of reality.

Do you like his teaching on the final cup? Is it Biblical?

[InterestedQuestioner]

"Hahn is one of a few seminary-trained, apparently well-educated Protestant ministers who have joined the Roman Catholic Church over the last few years."

This statement is wildly inaccurate. There has been a significant movement of ministers, theologians and intellectuals into the Catholic Church from other faith traditions in recent years. This is not the first time this has happened; however, a number of these individuals are making highly significant contributions to the Church. These individuals have brought tremendous gifts from previous faith traditions, and utilized those gifts in the service of the Church.

In the case of Scott Hahn, he was a Presbyterian minister who joined the Catholic Church several years ago. Dr. Hahn works very hard to convey his deep love of Scripture to fellow Christians. His work includes a number of books on Scripture, his online Bible Study Course (http://www.salvationhistory.com/), a very enjoyable radio program (Scripture Matters,) his work as a Scripture Professor, and weekly Bible studies for college students in his home. There have been a number of other Presbyterian ministers who have joined the Catholic Church in recent years, and many of them have undertaken very fruitful ministries for building up the Body of Christ.

Among other ministers that have joined the Catholic Church, there are several whose writings are routinely posted and enjoyed by a wide range of readers here on FR, including both Evangelical and Catholic Christians.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Yes, you "need" to know whom you have believed. And you cannot know this on your own in any way. The Holy Spirit must open your eyes and ears to the truth and give you a new heart with which to believe.

I haven't seen you rebut the Scriptures I posted; you just offer skepticism.

"...the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn off your feet." -- Deuteronomy 29:3-5

"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." -- Deuteronomy 30:5-7

"...to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me." -- Acts 26:18

"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." -- Ezekiel 36:26

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee." -- Psalm 65:4

"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." -- Titus 3:4-7

[SoothingDave]

Without the word of God you can not know the Word of God in any meaningful way.

So without a Bible, you could not meaningfully know God? That's an interesting idea. What about all of the illiterate people throughout history that had neither the ability nor the leisure time to read Scripture? They never knew the Word of God, Jesus?

Ever since the printing press people have gotten funny ideas about how God is experienced and how good they are at knowing all that God wants us to know.

If it makes you feel good to think that there is no need or command to read the scriptures go ahead

Try not putting words in my mouth, OK?

Pointing out your confusion between the Bible and the Word of God is not to say there is no need to study Scripture. Only that one can recognize that God is experienced through other means than only reading.

When you remove Church and Sacrament and history from your beliefs, it is little surprise that you fixate on Scripture as all. I mean, what else do you have left?

SD

[ears_to_hear]

Actually, there are, but if we tell you about them, you will tell us that they don't mean what we think they mean, which simply demonstrates that Scripture alone is not a sufficient guide to right doctrine, because as Scripture itself notes, the "ignorant and unstable" can twist it.

No actually the Bible teaches just the opposite. It is clear that Mary was not sinless. It is clear she did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit , It is clear that she did not understand the role of her son,

Unlike Enoch and Elijah there is not mention of this "miracle"

According to the RCC, Mary *completely* adhered to the Father's will, following *every* prompting of the Holy Spirit. She was the spiritual mother of us all *uninterruptedly*, from the annunciation onward. She was *always* in union with Jesus.

One wonders how such things could be true in light of the fact that Mary didn't even understand a simple statement Jesus made about His own identity after living with Mary for twelve years (Luke 2:49-50). Apparently, she was following *all* of the Father's will and *every* prompting of the Spirit, while she was the spiritual mother of all believers, yet, at the same time, she didn't even understand what Jesus said in Luke 2:49. She also was among the kinsmen who thought Jesus was insane (Mark 3:20-35), and she didn't honor Jesus as He should have been honored (Mark 6:3-4).

"Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she [Mary] needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon's prophecy (Luke 2, 35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 493)

[ArrogantBustard]

Salvation History

[Campion]

Do you like his teaching on the final cup? Is it Biblical?

I think it's a valid insight, but it's just his opinion, and he recognizes that.

[InterestedQuestioner]

ears_to_hear,

"If Catholics actually take out a bible and read it while reading his material they will see he is a teacher of false doctrine and error"

That was not my experience. Which of his teachings are you saying contradict Scripture?

[Campion]

It is clear that Mary was not sinless. It is clear she did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit

Really? Where are these "clear" scriptures? You mean Mary wasn't speaking under inspiration in Luke 1:48-55?

It is clear that she did not understand the role of her son

Not understanding something is a sin?

She also was among the kinsmen who thought Jesus was insane (Mark 3:20-35)

Being with a group of people who are confused is a sin?

and she didn't honor Jesus as He should have been honored (Mark 6:3-4)

Sorry, but actually know how to find Mark 6:3-4 in my Bible (which I have right here in my desk), and it says nothing like that.

I think you've established your mala fides as a false teacher with this post, thanks.

[ears_to_hear]

So without a Bible, you could not meaningfully know God? That's an interesting idea. What about all of the illiterate people throughout history that had neither the ability nor the leisure time to read Scripture? They never knew the Word of God, Jesus?

Are you saying that someone that never heard of Christ might be saved? Are you saying there is salvation without a knowledge of Christ?

Ever since the printing press people have gotten funny ideas about how God is experienced and how good they are at knowing all that God wants us to know.

Lets say after the reformation when people learned that they could not get to heaven by purchasing a ticket.

Jesus reinforced that by his constant quoting of the OT as He taught.

If you read the OT you will find that those periods of time where the scriptures were not central to the Jews were the times that they were apostate and following other gods and goddesses . It was only the word of God that brought them to repentance and back to God

Neh 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused [them] to understand the reading.

Neh 8:9 ¶ And Nehemiah, which [is] the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levites that taught the people, said unto all the people, This day [is] holy unto the LORD your God; mourn not, nor weep. For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law.

That is what we saw in the pre-reformation Catholic church. False gods and heresy taught as doctrine and the word of God bring men back to the truth

[Tax-chick]

Very interesting thoughts, SoothingDave.

[Campion]

Are you saying there is salvation without a knowledge of Christ?

"For by knowledge you are saved through Bible study, and this not of grace, that you may boast abundantly on the Internet." -- Artesians 7:42

He's right, Dave. It's all in there. I've seen the light.

[ears_to_hear]

Do you like his teaching on the final cup? Is it Biblical?
I think it's a valid insight, but it's just his opinion, and he recognizes that.

Actually it is a clearly FALSE teaching to anyone that reads the scriptures. Read the account for yourself and then compare it to the scripture he uses and his teaching on it .

"... There are four cups that represent the structure of the Passover. The first cup is the blessing of the festival day, it's the kiddush cup. The second cup of wine occurs really at the beginning of the Passover liturgy itself, and that involves the singing of psalm 113. And then there's the third cup, the cup of blessing which from your Link

involves the actual meal, the unleavened bread and so on. And then, before the fourth cup, you sing the great hil-el psalms: 114, 115, 116, 117 and 118. And having sung those psalms you proceed to the fourth cup which for all practical purposes is the climax of the Passover. Now what's the problem? The problem is that gospel account says something like this: after the third cup is drunk Jesus says, "I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until I am entering into the kingdom of God."

http://webpages.marshall.edu/~trimbol3/4thcup4.htm
The problem is that Scott is bending the word of God to fit his new Theology Scott is bends the word of God to fit his new Theology . From Youngs LITERAL translation
Luke 22 18   for I say to you that I may not drink of the produce of the vine till the reign of God may come.'

From the AmericanStandard
Luke 22 18 for I say unto you, I shall not drink from henceforth of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

To change the text as Scott says is dishonest and he does it to fit his new theology

"They put a sponge full of the sour wine on hyssop and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the sour wine he said the words that are spoken of in the fourth cup consummation, "It is finished." What is the it referring to? That grammatical question began really bothering me at some point. "

That vinegar was not the "fourth cup "and in his heart Scott knows this. ..or he is very deceived..That cup will be drunk at the marriage supper of the Lamb...

Mat 22:2   The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

Rev 19:9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

And shame on Scott "it is finished "was the atonement ...The sacrifice was complete...there was no more that needed to be done...it was finished..

[ears_to_hear]

Are you saying there is salvation without a knowledge of Christ?

"For by knowledge you are saved through Bible study, and this not of grace, that you may boast abundantly on the Internet." -- Artesians 7:42

So then according to your theology Christ is unnecessary for salvation ? No need for the great commission, all those apostles died in vain. All the martyrs died in vain, all gods and all beliefs lead to the same god right?Many wide roads right ?

[Campion]

That vinegar was not the "fourth cup "and in his heart Scott knows this. ..or he is very deceived..That cup will be drunk at the marriage supper of the Lamb...

And shame on Scott "it is finished "was the atonement ...The sacrifice was complete...there was no more that needed to be done...it was finished..

I guess you didn't read very carefully, because Scott points out that Romans 4:25 says that Christ "was raised for our justification," meaning that the total of his redemptive work cannot have been completed when he said "It is finished."

But more to the point, you just contradicted yourself, because if the fourth cup has not yet been drunk, then the Passover is still going on, and it really isn't "finished".

Better make up your mind. :-)

[blue-duncan]

"When you remove Church and Sacrament and history from your beliefs, it is little surprise that you fixate on Scripture as all. I mean, what else do you have left?"

The scriptures say that that is enough to make you wise unto salvation, 2 Tim. 3:15-17, "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

It doesn't say that the Church, sacraments or history can do that. It is only through the Scriptures that God has revealed His plan of salvation. The Scriptures are perspicuous in all that relates to salvation and one does not need a professional class to interpret it. The Holy Spirit is sufficient for the task.

[pgyanke]

Your posts would be a fascinating psychological study. The contortions you have to make in your latest attempt are astounding.

What signals the coming of the Kingdom of God? If Scott Hahn is correct, it would be Christ's sacrifice on the cross. This is the same offering shown to John in Revelation occurring in Heaven!

That vinegar was not the "fourth cup "and in his heart Scott knows this. ..or he is very deceived..That cup will be drunk at the marriage supper of the Lamb...

Bold statement. However, you can't back it up. Jesus was priest and passover sacrifice on the cross. He is also the one who is the lamb, standing as if slain in Revelation. The cup of consummation is the cup drunk by the priest (Jesus) at the consummation of the passover sacrifice (Jesus).

Scott's interpretation makes much more sense than yours.

And shame on Scott "it is finished "was the atonement ...The sacrifice was complete...there was no more that needed to be done...it was finished..

Shame on you for putting words in our Lord's mouth!