PREDESTINATION; LIVE BY GRACE; NOT BY WORKS (WEEK 8)

St. Louis Center for Christian Study ^ | Greg Johnson

[Dr. Eckleburg]

If salvation is all of grace -- if God is God and he has chosen us for salvation even though we did nothing to deserve it -- then we ought to live by the grace we have received. Of course, some of you will look at that and say to yourselves, “Yeah, I really need to do better at living by grace. I’ve really been a failure there. I hope God will forgive me again.” If that’s you, you still don’t get it. Go back and re-read the last seventeen pages and (if you’re a believer) remember that you’re one of the elect!

Our hearts so quickly try to relate to God on a works-basis! It’s our pride, really. I’m convinced that that’s the problem with free-will Arminianism. People naturally process it like this: God requires one work from me, to believe. Once I believe, I’ve done my work and deserve heaven. Of course, in more hard-line Arminian circles, it goes a step further. Unless I’m holy enough, I’ll still go to hell, and maybe I’ve even committed the unpardonable sin and will be damned even if I’m sinlessly perfect from here on out. Legalism. Legalism. Legalism. Such a religion is barely recognizable as Christianity.

But Calvinists can fall into legalism just as easily. You see, I understand predestination. I’m a superior Christian. I’ve got all my theological “t”s crossed and my Reformed “i”s dotted. I sure am close to God. Pride is the Presbyterian’s favorite form of legalism, so watch out! But if God really is for us, and if we had nothing to do with that decision -- if even our faith was given to us by the Father -- then there’s no room for boasting. God’s sovereign choice of us leaves us free from pride. It leaves us aware of our brokenness and humble before God, but all the while confident that his eternal purpose will stand, that we will glory in God forever as objects of his saving mercy. As God’s eternal blessing really begins to sink from our heads into our hearts, we see a new freedom that we never would have imagined when we first encountered the raw, holy, sovereign power of God. Among the newfound freedoms:

1. Freedom from shame, guilt & Insecurity

Read Romans 8:28-39. Nothing can separate you from God’s love -- nothing in the past, nothing in the future. No one can stand against you. No one can accuse you. Even bad things (“all things”) are working right now to your benefit, to make you more like Jesus. God didn’t choose you because of your faith, and Jesus is not ashamed of you—even at your worst (Hebrews 2:11). He’s proud to have you in the family, proud to call you brother or sister -- even knowing what he knows. He’s displaying the glory of his mercy, remember. God’s law is no longer your enemy, but a friend. You can have confidence before God.

2. Freedom from destructive Perfectionism

If God really is for you, then you can quit trying to look good. If you’re trying to be good enough for God, he’s not buying it -- he didn’t choose you because of your great faithfulness. If you’re trying to be good enough for other people, don’t bother. God wants to display his mercy -- that means we have to be broken. God’s glory is not displayed by trying to look like you have it all together. Faith is not a work, and even if it were it still wouldn’t earn you any brownie points. Let God be God. If you won’t show your weakness, then others won’t see God’s power displayed in it.

3. Freedom from legalistic man-made rules

Some of the biggest practical opponents to living by grace are those legalistic little rules that we live by. We love to judge other with them -- they make us look good, and help us feel better about ourselves. (Pride again.) Dress this way, not that way. Wear this much makeup, not that much. Work. Don’t work. Home school is God’s way. Public school is God’s way. Christian school is God’s way. Drink. Don’t drink. Smoke. Don’t smoke. Dance. Don’t dance. This is God’s worship style. If we’re all about God’s glory, there’s no room for any of this. Do whatever you do for God’s glory without comparisons. God has freed you from judging others. You don’t understand God’ sovereign grace until you realize you are a beggar who’s been blessed without cause. You had nothing to do with it -- you’re just a receiver.

4. Freedom from Penance

Even repentance can be a sham if we’re trying to approach God with some vestige of self-reliance. Biblical repentance is a freedom we can enjoy daily, while penance is its counterfeit.

Repentance/Penance

Comes with empty hands/Tries to bargain with God

Acknowledges real sin as against God/Makes excuses for sin

Grieves over displeasing God/Grieves over getting caught

Asks for help to do better/Promises to do better

Is willing to publicly confess, if needed/Is too proud to publicly confess

Relies on God's promises to us/Relies on own promises to God

Turns outward, away from self, to God/Turns inward on self

Produces freedom, joy, and confidence/Produces guilty feelings, anxiety

God has obligated himself to receive any repentant sinner who comes to him. Without this realization, true repentance is impossible. Until we realize that God is for us, we cannot truly be for God.

[xzins]

Predestination is God's way of humbling all of us.

It humbles us when we try to logica our way through it, and it humbles us when we realize our insignificance.

There is no free will that itself isn't previewed and certified by God.

[hosepipe]

[ Predestination is God's way of humbling all of us. ]

Time might be a mental construct for this era/age/eon/dispensation...
Timing, however is eternal.. Predestination in that sense might be a "mirage"..

[adiaireton8]

The above is a false generalization of “logic” insofar as it represents “formal logic” as “logic” ...

The "insofar as" makes your statement a bit of sophistry, since my statement does not at all "represent formal logic as logic". To refute my statement you would have to provide a statement that does not presume the fundamental principle of logic, or you would have to show an illogical statement that is not a combination of statements.

My assertion in the present sidebar is “non-classical logic” – i.e. that both predestination and free will are Truth for the simple reason that God has spoken both.

It is misleading to call it "non-classical logic", because one need give up nothing of logic to affirm it.

We cannot apply formal logic (esp. Aristotlean logic) to God because of the observer problem.

How does that follow?

Or to put it another way, faith and reason are complementary - but reason cannot substitute for faith.

One needn't give up logic to affirm that.

His ways are higher than our ways, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

Of course, but one needn't give up logic in order to affirm that verse. There are other ways of taking it.

As another example, even though God is perfect by definition He nevertheless has overridden the “laws” of the physical creation (including physical laws and formal logic) in performing miracles recorded throughout Scripture (and others not recorded in Scripture)

A physical law is nothing other than a conceptual generalization of a physical disposition(s). It is not something God has to "override". As far as God overriding a law of formal logic, name just one law of formal logic that God has overridden in the performance of a miracle.

If we applied formal logic to our understanding of God, we could not accept that He would make a creation less than perfect.

How would that conclusion follow?

We could accept no miracles under formal logic, i.e. we'd be Deists.

How would that conclusion follow? I hold to formal logic, and I am not a deist.

Nor could we accept both the prophesies which pointed to and were fulfilled in Christ and the commandments of God, e.g. judge not that you not be judged, forgive that you shall be forgiven, honor your father and your mother that your days may be long in the land God gives you, choose ye this day whom you will serve (and many other such if/thens.)

Why not?

As to your assertion that logic only applies to a combination of statements, whereas that is true concerning “formal logic” – especially Aristotlean logic - it does not always apply to “informal logic.”

Yes it does.

For instance, the statement ”Mr. Jones, how can you favor gun legislation when you own a pistol?” is a logical fallacy (circumstantial ad hominem.)

The question becomes a fallacy only in the context of an argument, e.g. where Mr. Jones is presenting an argument in favor of gun legislation. It is not a fallacy in isolation.

Moreover, I assert that many if not most all ad hominem arguments are not stated as a combination of statements, e.g. “The author is a liar” “You are an idiot” etc. The conclusion is not formally drawn, it is suggested.

Right, but those are still arguments, because they are enthymemes.

-A8

[HarleyD]

I didn't understand a word that you've posted and I read it three times. Here is just a snip:

I replied by showing that it would only follow that there is no such distinction if you are an infallible interpreter of Scripture. Otherwise, your not seeing something in Scripture would not entail that it isn't in Scripture. If you have missed the distinction in Scripture between election for glory and election for grace, then your justification for believing that Col 3:12 shows you to be elect for glory is undermined.

No offense but I've tried to parse this and couldn't follow the logic. Do you work for Newadvent by chance?

You responded by saying that you don't see any distinction in Scripture between "election for glory" and "election for grace".

I never said any such thing. I said you are posting two different versions, using the same word with different meanings. Either elect means one thing or another. It can't mean both. I gave you a choice for defining the words; you have yet to do so. To make this simple:

What is the definition of election?

What is the definition of faith?

I would suggest you are simply changing the definition to suit your fancy.

[wordsofearnest]

James 2:20-26

[Dr. Eckleburg]

There is no free will that itself isn't previewed and certified by God.

Previewed and certified??? Like a Porterhouse steak?

Are you sure we get the last word?

Here, as a Thanksgiving blessing, are B.B. Warfield's...

SOME THOUGHTS ON PREDESTINATION

"A great man of the last generation began the preface of a splendid little book he was writing on this subject, with the words: "Happy would it be for the church of Christ and for the world, if Christian ministers and Christian people could be content to be disciples-learners." He meant to intimate that if only we were all willing to sit simply at the feet of the inspired writers and take them at their word, we should have no difficulties with Predestination. The difficulties we feel with regard to Predestination are not derived from the Word. The Word is full of it, because it is full of God, and when we say God and mean God—God in all that God is—we have said Predestination.

Our difficulties with Predestination arise from a, no doubt not unnatural, unwillingness to acknowledge ourselves to be wholly at the disposal of another. We wish to be at our own disposal. We wish "to belong to ourselves," and we resent belonging, especially belonging absolutely, to anybody else, even if that anybody else be God. We are in the mood of the singer of the hymn beginning, "I was a wandering sheep," when he declares of himself, "I would not be controlled." We will not be controlled. Or, rather, to speak more accurately, we will not admit that we are controlled.

I say that it is more accurate to say that we will not admit that we are controlled. For we are controlled, whether we admit it or not. To imagine that we are not controlled is to imagine that there is no God. For when we say God, we say control. If a single creature which God has made has escaped beyond his control, at the moment that he has done so he has abolished God. A God who could or would make a creature whom he could not or would not control, is no God. The moment he should make such a creature he would, of course, abdicate his throne. The universe he had created would have ceased to be his universe; or rather it would cease to exist-for the universe is held together only by the control of God..."

The article continues in the link. I hope you are all predestined to a wonderful, loving Thanksgiving, filled with God's gracious bounty. 8~)

[Quix]

Thanks.

Best of Thanksgiving to you and yours.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Thank you for the verses from James. Here's a good discussion on James vs. Paul by Arthur Pink...

JUSTIFICATION: ITS EVIDENCE

"In Romans 3:28 the Apostle Paul declared "that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," and then produces the case of Abraham to prove his assertion. But the Apostle James, from the case of the same Abraham, draws quite another conclusion, saying, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24). This is one of the "contradictions in the Bible" to which infidels appeal in support of their unbelief. But the Christian, however difficult he finds it to harmonize passages apparently opposite, knows there cannot be any contradiction in the Word of God. Faith has unshaken confidence in the inerrancy of Holy Writ. Faith is humble too and prays, "That which I see not teach Thou me" (Job. 34:32). Nor is faith lazy; it prompts its possessor unto a reverent examination and diligent investigation of that which puzzles and perplexes, seeking to discover the subject of each separate book, the scope of each writer, the connections of each passage.

Now the design of the Apostle Paul in Romans 3:28 may be clearly perceived from its context. He is treating of the great matter of a sinner’s justification before God: he shows that it cannot be by works of the law, because by the law all men are condemned, and also because if men were justified on the ground of their own doings, then boasting could not be excluded. Positively he affirms that justification is by grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. His reasoning will appear the more conclusive if the whole passage (Rom. 3:19-28) be read attentively. Because the Jews had a high regard of Abraham, the Apostle proceeded to show in the 4th chapter of Romans that Abraham was justified in that very way—apart from any works of his own, by faith alone. By such a method of justification the pride of the creature is strained, and the grace of God is magnified.

Now the scope of the Apostle James is very different: his Epistle was written to counteract quite another error. Fallen men are creatures of extremes: no sooner are they driven out of the false refuge of trusting to their own righteousness, than they fly to the opposite and no less dangerous error of supposing that, since they cannot be justified by their own works, that there is no necessity whatever for good works, and no danger from ungodly living and unholy practice. It is very clear from the New Testament itself that very soon after the Gospel was freely proclaimed, there arose many who turned the grace of God into "lasciviousness": that this was not only quickly espoused in theory, but soon had free course in practice. It was therefore the chief design of the Apostle James to show the great wickedness and awful danger of unholy practice and to assert the imperative necessity of good works..."

Here's Pink's entire book online...

THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

Happy Thanksgiving.

[Forest Keeper]

First, how do you know that the word "elect" in Col 3:12 is referring to "election to glory" and not merely "election to grace"?

[adiaireton8]

Either elect means one thing or another. It can't mean both.

So do you invest your money in a river bank, since words cannot have two meanings?

-A8

[HarleyD]

since words cannot have two meanings?

Not in this case and not according to the early church fathers. One would hope you would base your analysis on tradition.

“Even so then at this time also the remnant according to the election of grace is saved;”since it is easily understood to be of such a remnant that it is said, “He that is left in thine house,” assuredly he believes in Christ;" - Augustine - The City of God

Then, also, according to the Septuagint interpretation (for it also is a prophetic meaning), “shall come those who are elected of the Lord out of all nations.” For then indeed there shall come only those who are elected, whereof the apostle saith, “According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world.” - Augustine - City of God

It does make one wonder that if God foreknows who is to come to Him, why would He elect them and then unelect them? Augustine didn't see it your way.

[adiaireton8]

Augustine didn't see it your way.

How do you know what my way is, since I have not described it?

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Apparently, you don't invest your money in a river bank because you don't really believe what you said, namely, that "words cannot have two meanings".

Therefore, how do you know that in Col 3:12, Paul is using the term 'elect' to mean "elect to glory" and not "elect to grace"?

-A8

[adiaireton8]

why would He elect them and then unelect them?

I never claimed, nor do I believe, that God "elects them and then unelects them".

-A8

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I am the one who has asked a question, so I don't have to offer support for anything.

LOLOL.

"Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied." -- Proverbs 27:20

[alpha-8-25-02]

GODBLESS SISTER!

[adiaireton8]

Do you have a point, except to construct some ad hominem?

-A8

[hinckley buzzard]

Or, for all you know, proud to have created you to roast in hell forever.

Fat chance of that. Try Christianity sometime. You'll like it.

[adiaireton8]

Fat chance of that.

Are you a Calvinist?

-A8

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Fat chance of that. Try Christianity sometime.

Amen. We preach Christ risen. All who possess Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior have been acquitted of their sins by Christ taking on their transgressions and paying for every single one of them. And this we are sure of because Scripture tells us so.

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." -- John 10:28-30

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" -- John 11:25

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." -- John 17:24

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." -- Romans 4:8