Posted on 12/19/2006 6:37:07 PM PST by Coleus
The bongo drums and keyboard at Iglesia El Shaddai, a Pentecostal church in Elizabeth, are being played so briskly they can support a conga line. The El Salvadorian-born pastor shakes a tambourine, some women rock their hips and everyone sings praise to Jesus in Spanish. Soon, the pastor takes the service down a notch. But just a notch. With his eyes shut, Renato Castro shouts "Gloria, Jesus! Aleluya!" and paces before 300 people.
The worshippers, eyes also closed, shout as they feel the spirit -- the Holy Spirit -- moving them: "Oh, Dios! Dios!" "Gracias, Papa!" Lips tremble. Tears flow. In the first row, Evelyn Yax, 29, sways. Her right arm extends forward, her palm out. Her left arm clutches her 2-year-old daughter, Nathalie, to her bosom. Like most Latinos on a recent Sunday praying in this rented second-floor church space on Bridge Street, Yax was baptized Catholic. And like an increasing number of Hispanics, she left the Catholic Church to embrace an exuberant style of worship that she says brings her closer to God.
"I feel something special in this church," said Yax, a dental assistant born in Guatemala who, like many people interviewed for this story, said Catholicism in America lacks the appeal it once held in their home country. "In this church you feel Jesus is very close to you. You feel something in your heart, you feel something is weird." Pollsters say Catholicism remains the religion of choice for most Hispanics in the United States. But evangelical, Pentecostal and other charismatic churches are drawing an increasing number of worshippers away from their traditional choices.
(Excerpt) Read more at nj.com ...
ooops NOT IF
Holy Spirit IS above a LOT of other STUFF . . .
Naysayers typically make an initial ASSUMPTION that is extremely hazardous.
They ASSUME that HOLY SPIRIT CAN'T be truly, really, actively, overtly involved in the hear and now in the ways described.
They ASSUME so for a variety of reasons which are usually designed to protect the status quo of their belief system and cosmology. Some may just not want the bother of adjusting their construction of reality. Some are deathly fearful of letting go the old just because it's old and traditional and thereby comforting in it's familiarity.
Others just believe Holy Spirit CANNOT be actively, overtly operating in individual lives a la Acts 2 in this era BECAUSE THEY HAVE DECREED IT IMPOSSIBLE or believed someone who's so decreed it.
However, Scripture indicates that ascribing things Holy Spirit is doing as apostacy is a very hazardous thing to do.
AND IF
Holy Spirit is truly involved, then folks would be idiots to not get on board.
GOD IS, AFTER ALL, GOD ALMIGHTY.
HIS GAME IS THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN. HE ALONE IS WORTHY ALL HONOR, SUBMISSION, FOLLOWING, JOINING IN.
This has been going on in Houston for years. Latinos and Pentecostalism fit together like a hand in gloves. (No, not like OJ's gloves).
Amen! It's His call. And sometimes He even gives without asking...
"But Isaiah is very bold and says: 'I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.'" -- Romans 20:10
QUITE SO. QUITE SO.
Mercifully.
THX.
Is that to say that God isn't working in these Charismatic/Pentecostal churches at all? No, certainly it isn't.
Please be aware, the Catholic Church has always taught that God is "actively, overtly operating in individual lives." And there are scores of miracles and wonders to verify that. Sometimes this Divine Work is dramatic a la Acts 2, but often it is far more subtle.
Please don't think that I don't believe that the Holy Spirit at times chooses to work through speaking in tongues and other charismatic ways. I've been to Festivals of Praise at the University of Stuebenville (a Catholic college steeped in the Charismatic movement), and I've seen some of these things take place.
Interesting. Thank you, Coleus for posting this thread.
jm
This is awful news.
Am aware of your markedly above average respect for what Holy Spirit is and may be doing in various venues. Praise God for that.
Re: if a church is teaching error, then it should be avoided.
ALL DO. One might even go so far as to say that all teach something very troubling. All groups are, after all, human in a list of ways. I could certainly emphasize the same thing of the typical, traditional Roman organization.
I think that's one reason I respect HEALTHY, BALANCED "Charismania." Holy Spirit slices through all the stuff, all the garbage; all the humanness and declares Godly truth in Love. That's priceless in any group focused on God enough for Holy Spirit to be free and to choose to manifest His operations within said group(s).
Trouble is, like most things human and religious--we want to standardize, package, manage, manipulate, CONTROL HIM.
And, of course, He will have none of that, and the distancing or pervision or whatever cracks appear in the situation and deterioration sets in.
I think that's one reason I've been so in awe of the . . . what is it . . . A______ something or other . . . a College in the Eastern USA . . . where 2-3 times over the decades Holy Spirit has fallen and folks have gone rushing to the front repenting and seeking God and 24 hour prayer meetings have gone on for weeks and months.
I think the Welsh Revival in an earlier century was the same--as long as HOLY SPIRIT was managing it . . . HE DID GREAT THINGS, DRAMATIC THINGS. When the flesh had to be in charge, He pulled back.
And the flesh takes many forms from acting out grand-standingly-dramatic pretending to be Holy Spirit to being a wet blanket pretending to be Holy Spirit.
Beyond the Basics, I don't respect theology and doctrine that much any more. My sense is that Christ didn't either. The Pharisees had doctrine and even Scripture memorized to the nth degree and got it all wrong in the essentials.
I'd rather get the essentials of Loving God and others; doing unto others . . . The Virgin Birth; Resurrection, Coming again . . . the basics . . . get those right and trust the rest to God to sort out IN HIS TIME and way(s).
Try reading Romans in THE MESSAGE version. Especially around the 12-14th chapters or so. Paul makes the priorities fairly straight forwardly clear there. And it's not the layers upon layers of detailed, proudly studied etc. doctrine. It's RELATIONSHIPS IN THE LORD, FOR THE LORD, ABOUT THE LORD--NOT for the organization; about the organization; NOT for doctrine; about doctrine.
Except you come as little children, you shall in no wise enter the kingdom of Heaven. Little children are not into doctrine. They are into hugs and being close to DADDY. And DADDY Loves that.
And, I think, that's the essence of the best of "Charismania."
Interesting.
Except you come as little children, you shall in no wise enter the kingdom of Heaven. Little children are not into doctrine. They are into hugs and being close to DADDY. And DADDY Loves that.
I think that for many many years, most Catholics had no concept of this. For too long, it was "pay, pray, and obey" and we as of late have paid dearly for it. A few of us are starting to get it... at least dimly.
Thank you for an interesting conversation. I apologize if I seemed confrontational or dense; It was just hard for me to get my mind around what you were saying, because it's just different than what I'm used to.
I agree with your assessments. I don't know much about the Catholic faith, but I feel comfortable enough to say I don't understand the extreme emphasis on Mary instead of Jesus, and I don't personally accept anyone as my Holy Father except the Almighty God in Heaven, and I don't believe someone has to light a candle and pray to Mary or to "pay my way" to keep me out of purgatory or hell when I die. That's all I've ever heard about the Catholic faith and I could be completely wrong in my observations.
I think that in ANY denomination whether it be Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Pentecostal, etc.... we must all, every one of us, be faithful in our prayers, Bible study, and meditations so that we are not lead astray by any preacher, priest, minister, Pope, etc. Because bottom line is, these people are just that, human, and not beyond sin. And that's not to say be distrustful of members of the clergy, but don't take their word and interpretations of scripture as total truth. We must pray for understanding from God about what we are being taught at church.
Jesus is the only way to God and having a relationship with Him will guide our way if we let Him.
That's my take anyway.
It is hard for all of us.
I love studying theology. For me, it is an act of worship. I love God, and part of my nature is that I want to study what I love. But you can study and debate theology so much you forget the love of God.
Now theology is important, very much so. But my departed grandfather taught me more about God, love, and duty that the couple dozen books about theology I have laying around the house. Christianity is not just something we know, but is something we are. Hell has a lot of people who knew all about Christianity and not much about Christ.
Biblical Christians are happy to waltz along in 3/4 time, praying to God the Father in the name of God the Son and in the power of God the Holy Spirit. That's not good enough for non-Biblical Christians, who have an urge to move goddess the Mother into proximity to the Blessed Trinity. After all, if God won't answer your prayers, just ping His mother!
"That's not good enough for non-Biblical Christians, who have an urge to move goddess the Mother into proximity to the Blessed Trinity. After all, if God won't answer your prayers, just ping His mother!"
Ouch! Don't worry, Tom. Mary prays for you, too! ;-)
Hey, BTW - can you (or anyone else) tell me how to post other's quotes in italics or something besides just quotation marks. I can't figure it out. Thanks in advance.
Use the capital comma and capital period keys to bracket your i for italics at the beginning of the piece you want to italicize. Use capital comma, lower case question mark (slash), i, and capital period to un-italicise the following text. However, once you start using html code, you'll need to end each paragraph with a p in the angle brackets. Try it, you'll like it.
Thanks!
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