Progress: Benedict and Bartholomew to Meet Again

National Catholic Register ^ | December 24, 2006 | EDWARD PENTIN

[NYer]

the fact that the EP and the Patriarch likely will jointly preside over a collection of Catholic and Orthodox theologians is "religious world" shaking.

Coming from you, K, I will accept your assessment of the situation and rejoice :-) Hallelujah!!!

I recall your initial reaction following the election of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger to the papacy. You liked his "theosis". It is not even 2 years since that great day.

Following his election, I recall certain media labeling him an 'interim' pope, fully anticipating a short and meaningless papacy. It has been anything but! When he traveled to Turkey last month, the forum Catholics set up prayer threads, fully anticipating some crazed Muslim would kill Pope Benedict XVI. We believe that God is in control but, hedged our bets on the Pope's life through our prayers. Not only did he come through unscathed, the media have now altered their view of him as one who can traverse the divisions that separate Muslims from Christians.

Is it just me or do you also see the Holy Spirit at work through this man?

[Kolokotronis]

"I recall your initial reaction following the election of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger to the papacy. You liked his "theosis". It is not even 2 years since that great day."

I had read much of the then Card. Ratzinger's writings and having heard him speak right after his election, I knew I was hearing the words of the most patristic thinking pope in 1000+ years. Since then I have become more and more convinced that we may well be hearing the words of a "Father" of The Church. And when he speaks to the universal Church, he speaks in the words of an Eastern Father. I think that's why so much of canonical Orthodoxy is taken with him in a way that they never were with +JPII.

"Is it just me or do you also see the Holy Spirit at work through this man?"

I don't think there is any doubt of that, but remember, the HS will have to work among the Orthodox hierarchs, clergy and laity too. So far it looks pretty good but the Russian Church will be a tough nut to crack for all sorts of, frankly, good historical reasons. For now, the HS seems to be working with the EP too, as it was his idea that he and +BXVI preside over the dialog at which all the Orthodox Churches are represented.

Like I said, this is truly astonishing.

[Kolokotronis]

"Complicated issue is that all other Ortodox Churches are (politicaly) rivals with EP, Russian is first to be rival. So ecumenizm must not lean only on EP.
Ortodox world is not working like Vatican, and EP is just honorary title. All Ortodox Churches must be included."

K, the Patriarch of Serbia hosted the meeting of the dialog this past Fall in Belgrade. All the canonical Orthodox Churches are represented.

[Kolokotronis]

"Differences DO need to be worked out, but not at the expense of an Ecumenical "kumbaya" feel good solution."

But the dialog was cut off for several years, much to the dismay of the kumbaya crowd over the Uniate issue. Nobody is afraid to tackle the real issues which divide us because no one wants another False Union of Florence. It is also the reason that the biggest impediment to any further dialog is being discussed in these meetings, namely the proper exercise of the Petrine Ministry. Without a resolution of that, all other theological and ecclesiological discussions become intellectual exercises in wasting time.

[NYer]

Like I said, this is truly astonishing.

Might I dare to suggest that we combine all our 'ping' lists for this great event and join our prayers for Pope Benedict XVI and Patriarch Bartholomew I and ALL involved in this convocation. We can draw strength from St. Ephrem.

---

THE PRAYER OF SAINT EPHREM THE SYRIAN

O Lord and Master of my life,
take from me the spirit of sloth, despondency,
lust of power, and idle talk;

But grant rather
the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love
to thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King,
grant me to see my own transgressions,
and not to judge my brother;
for blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages.

Amen.

[TexConfederate1861]

With all due respect, some people have accused ROCOR of being the same...:)

[TexConfederate1861]

We agree completely, brother :)

[kosta50]

the fact that the EP and the [Pope] likely will jointly preside over a collection of Catholic and Orthodox theologians is "religious world" shaking

It's a historic moment for sure, possibly the first. When was the last such meeting held? Anxieties of some aside, one must recognize at least that incredible efforts are being made to begin the end of our separation.

This is a glacier that has not moved, but rather solidified and grew larger in the last 1,000 years, and we are privileged enough to witness its reversal, no matter now small. The ice is melting.

I also agree with those who are cautious. Unless our theologians in secret reversed centuries of disagreement, our faiths remain depely divided along some very important and even crucial issues.

No re-union will be possible without resolution of these obstacles, and false ecumenism is not what we need. But we can at least treat each other as one Catholic and Apostolic Church, we can recognize our love and faith as genuine, and our division as our own failure.

Pope Benedict XVI said it very clearly that any re-union would not involve absorption of one side into the other. True re-union can only be mutual. Many people didn't think we could even get this far. And the Russian Church is right when it says that only 40 or so years have passed before we started cautiously speaking with each other on friendlier terms. This is not going to be a fast-faith drive-through!

Yet we witnessed the incredible: an Orthodox Patriarch raising the Pope's hand in arm embrace as if saying: we stand united even if are not one and the same (yet, again).

And those who caution that the Russian Church must not be neglected and that the EP is not the "spiritual leader" of the Orthodox world are also right. This must be an all-Orthodox affair and not just the EP. And any re-union will have to be made through the an All-Orthodox Synod and not through the EP alone. I am sure the Catholic side is very much aware of that.

But it is clear that the Vatican is dealing with Russia as well, and perhaps the level of that cooperation is not yet the same as that with the EP, the BUT the ice is melting!

Russian top Church officials have recently stated that the Orthodox and Catholics are allies. And we are.

I agree with Kolokotronis that this is "VERY, VERY BIG." Not only that, it is VERY, VERY GOOD too!

[kosta50]

Please explain what you mean. What comes to mind when I read your post, is that Pope Gregory the Great specifically rejected the title, "Universal"........

Universal primacy is the recognition of Ecumenical Councils of the Bishop of Rome as primus, i.e. "first" in the whole Church. The stumbling block is (and was even then) what that entails and how does that translate into jurisdictional primacy.

The Church was organized synodally, with Ecumenical Councils being the proclamations of the Church, infallible, as the Church is, and binding. The East is still organized that way, but the West is not.

The Pope recognizes that. There is even talk of "pre Schism papacy." At any rate, this should not be understood as willingness on the Latin side to sell out what they earnestly believe any more than assuming that we will betray our convictions.

We must define a mutually-acceptable Petrine Ministry that will not be stifling, overwhelming or chauvinistic, imposing or desiring to lord over other Patriarchs, and yet to be the unavoidable and essential element in all Church decisions.

[kronos77]

True. Serbian Patriarch and Serb Ortodox Church are supporters of reconcile, but same meeting of Pope and EP must be held also with Serb Ortodox Church.
Meeting must take place, wether it is in Serbia or abroad, that is less important.
It is not the same when cardinals are meeting and when heads of Churches meet

I was implying that EP is not "Pope pf all Ortodox" but Serbian patriarch is head of Serbian Church so meeting like with EP must be held with him aswell.

My whish is that all Christians must be reunited, and foremost, reconciled...

[kronos77]

Most logical anwser and most acceptable solution will be a transformation of Catholic church and Ortodox Churrch in one Christian Church on same way like today Eastern Churches are organised:

- Pope will be a head of the Christian Church, but "First among eaquals".

Also it would help if next Pope of Christian Church would be Ortodox.

I belive that ecumenism is now mostley political question.

[kronos77]

"Russian top Church officials have recently stated that the Orthodox and Catholics are allies. And we are."

I would like to compare ecumenism with marriage.

First two get to know eachother.
Than they find joint wiews and interests
Than they resolve any possible differences
Than they get to set mutual goals in life
Than they get married, but in same time forming one in the eyes God, they both remain separate individuals, yet joined in marriage.

We are allies, that is good news, but we also need to take (if we want more than alliance) visible steps and realy get together. Otherwise, all meetings will be futile

[irishjuggler]

Well, I hope this works out, but I wish that the Vatican would put this much energy into bringing some of our U.S. bishops back to the Catholic faith.

[TexConfederate1861]

If I remember correctly, the title was "primus inter pares"
or "first among equals"......


If that is where this negotiation is headed, it sounds good to me. :)

[NYer]

Also it would help if next Pope of Christian Church would be Ortodox

For that you must appeal to the Holy Spirit. It would also help to have some Orthodox, under the age of 80, elevated to the College of Cardinals.

During the last conclave, Lubomyr Husar of the Ukrainian Catholic Church stepped forward to read the oath before the Bible, then bent over and kissed the Holy Scriptures. This reverence is one familiar to us in the Eastern Churches but Latin Catholics who witnessed this were most impressed.

Lubomyr Cardinal Husar

[kosta50]

Most logical anwser and most acceptable solution will be a transformation of Catholic church and Ortodox Churrch in one Christian Church

No absoprtion and no morphing! The Church is One Catholic and Apostolic, the faith is One and Orthodox. The Church can be one only if it is Catholic and Orthodox in that context.

Also it would help if next Pope of Christian Church would be Ortodox.

All Popes prior to Great Schism were Orthodox (faith-ise, not rite-wise)! As to whether a Pope must be a Latin Rite bishop, ordianed Latin Rite priest, or anyone, I ask Catholic Freepers to clarify.

[kosta50]

For that you must appeal to the Holy Spirit. It would also help to have some Orthodox, under the age of 80, elevated to the College of Cardinals

There was no such body in the Undivided Church. There was a Latin Patriarch's Synod. The Churhc would have to have a Synod of all Patriarchs, presided by the Pope, of course, but not controlled by him.

This reverence is one familiar to us in the Eastern Churches but Latin Catholics who witnessed this were most impressed

I believe it used to be, but it was lost. Having seen the Tridentine High Mass, a lot of that reverence and frequent signs of the cross and kissing of the priest's right hand was still part of the reverence of the Latin Church that has been since lost in the post-Vatican II period.

[kosta50]

There are serious theological issues that need to be resolved. It's not just a matter of holding hands.

[kosta50]

If I remember correctly, the title was "primus inter pares" or "first among equals"......If that is where this negotiation is headed, it sounds good to me. :)

The EP is currenlty primus inter pares among the Orthodox, since the Bishop of Rome is not sharing the same faith with the Orthodox Church. This is by default (according to Ecumenica Councils).

Although the EP has no jurisdiction and cannot lord over other patriarchs, he certainyl has many priviledges that cannot be circumvented or ignored.

He cannot do anything without the Synod, but the Synod also cannot do anything wihtout him!

I t's beautiful checks and balances that the Church devised long before America was even on the map! :)

[Kolokotronis]

"There was no such body in the Undivided Church. There was a Latin Patriarch's Synod. The Churhc would have to have a Synod of all Patriarchs, presided by the Pope, of course, but not controlled by him."

I had this exact conversation with my secretary's husband as I left the office tonight. He maintaioned that the Orthodox would be safe from any pronouncements from Rome because the Orthodox hierarchs would be represented on the Curia. I told him I thought that was bizarre in the extreme and suggested, if any such group were needed, it be exactly what Kosta has suggested. The Curia can do whatever it wants within the confines of the Latin Church. They can even elect the pope fo all I care.