Cardinals, Bishops, Theologians and Lay Apologists Speak-up for Marian Coredemption

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[Kolokotronis]

“On that note, I know what Panagia means, but perhaps one of you could give me and others who might scroll through these comments a fuller understanding of this beautiful title of Our Lady.”

It means the All (or completely) Holy Woman.

“It seems to me that for both East and West a deeper knowledge of the essential role of Mary Theotokos in our supernatural life here and now as Mediatrix, Coredemptrix and Advocate would do us all a lot of good.”

The East has no need of further dogmas on the Most Holy Theotokos nor is there any misunderstanding of her role among the Orthodox, though I will admit that some of us do appear to go a bit overboard in our veneration on occassion. I will take your word for it that a heresy has arisen in the Latin Church which denies that we are to venerate the Most Holy Theotokos, that she is indeed the Medatrix, that she is the mother who bestows upon us all the sweet kisses of her love, that she was, is and always will be sinless and the Perpetual Virgin, that she is the New Eve, who gave birth without corruption to the Logos enfleshed, the New Adam who destroyed death by death and preached life to those in the tombs....But the solution to this for those within the Latin Church is not a new dogma proclaimed on its own without the AXIOS of Orthodoxy, but rather catechesis in the form of liturgical prayer, a renewal in the West of the ancient praxis of The Church. Fill your churches, your homes, your offices or workplaces with icons of Panagia, teach your people, especially your children to venerate them daily. Chant the entire Akathist to the Most Holy Theotokos publicly and at least weekly in Great Lent and the Dormition Lent. Adopt the chants, “By the Prayers of the Theotokos, Saviour Save us!” and “It is truly right to bless you, Theotokos, ever blessed, most pure, and mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, without corruption you gave birth to God the Word. We magnify you, the true Theotokos.” for every Liturgy. Pray unceasingly for her aid. Lex orandi, lex credendi, Fr.MM.

“With such a welcome does the representation of the Virgin’s form cheer us, inviting us to draw not from a bowl of wine, but from a fair spectacle, by which the rational part of our soul, being watered through our bodily eyes, and given eyesight in its growth towards the divine love of Orthodoxy, puts forth in the way of fruit the most exact vision of truth. Thus, even in her images does the Virgin’s grace delight, comfort and strengthen us! A virgin mother carrying in her pure arms, for the common salvation of our kind, the common Creator reclining as an infant - that great and ineffable mystery of the Dispensation! A virgin mother, with a virgin’s and a mother’s gaze, dividing in indivisible form her temperament between both capacities, yet belittling neither by its incompleteness.” +Photios the Great; Homily on the Uncovering of the Icon of the Most Holy Theotokos

“Come, let us wonder at the virgin most pure, wondrous in herself, unique in creation, she gave birth, yet knew no man; her pure soul with wonder was filled, daily her mind gave praise in joy at the twofold wonder: her virginity preserved, her child most dear. Blessed is He who shone forth from her!” +Ephraim the Syrian; The Harp of the Spirit

Is the West is too cool, too secular these days to pray:

“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!
Our life, our sweetness, and our hope!
To thee do we cry, poor banished
children of Eve, to thee do we send
up our sighs, mourning and weeping
in this valley of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us; and
after this our exile show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus;
O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God

That we may be made worthy of the
promises of Christ.”;

do you still teach your children this prayer? The Latin Church did within living memory. Prayer and a return to the traditional Marian faith and praxis of The Church in the West or better that of the East will destroy whatever heresy you may face within the Latin Church today. A new dogma which will alienate you from the rest of The Church for another millenium and open the door to truly horrible heresies won’t do that.

“Just as the fishermen hide the hook with bait and covertly hook the fish, similarly, the crafty allies of the heresies cover their evil teachings and corrupt understanding with pietism and hook the more simple, bringing them to spiritual death.” +Isidore of Pelusium

Finally:

“Creatures participate in God’s Being in various ways (”in Him all things continue in being” Col. 1), yet they are not God or a pantheistic part of God.”

Well you see, what you have said could be viewed as heresy. Loose talk is spiritually dangerous. No created being participates in God’s “Being”:

“Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostases. As we have seen, those privileged to be united to God so as to become one spirit with Him - as St. Paul said, ‘He who cleaves to the Lord is one spirit with Him’ (I Cor. 6:17) - are not united to God with respect to His essence, since all theologians testify that with respect to His essence God suffers no participation. Moreover, the hypostatic union is fulfilled only in the case of the Logos, the God-man. Thus those privileged to attain union with God are united to Him with respect to His energy; and the ‘spirit’, according to which they who cleave to God are one with Him, is and is called the uncreated energy of the Holy Spirit, but not the essence of God.” +Gregory Palamas, Topics of Natural and Theological Science LXXV

[livius]

The translation is a problem. But only one of many.

I have stayed out of this because I think a lot of it has nothing to do with doctrine, but a lot to do with JPII. He was very devoted to Our Lady (a good thing) but supposedly toyed with the “Co-Redeemer” idea at some point and was then dissuaded by others in the Vatican, probably BXVI, from going ahead with this.

I think many of the arguments are very emotional, have nothing to do with either translation or theology, and should be calmly re-examined about 100 years hence. If it’s correct, it will happen; and I’m sure Our Lady can and will wait, because she was obedient at her very core and would not have wanted to be part of anything that could be construed as a conflict with the Church or as a lack of respect for her Son.

[Kolokotronis]

“calling mary a co redemtrix for doing the opposite of what eve did is like calling adam a co creator because it was his rib.”

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

[kawaii]

you know kolo. though we’ve seen disagreements between Russian and Greek Orthdox on this forum, it’s clear when we all speak on matters of doctrine that we are part of one church.

very elequently said.

[kosta50]

There's a world of difference between the Queen and the Queen Mother. One has power; one does not

You are right, but, again, no Christian should wonder which Queen. Her only role is that of the mother, the Theokotos. We sing in the Divine Liturgy "more honorbale than the Cherubim..." She has no power but she is honored above all saints. And rightfully so.

[Kolokotronis]

“...though we’ve seen disagreements between Russian and Greek Orthdox on this forum, it’s clear when we all speak on matters of doctrine that we are part of one church.”

Disagreeing is among the things we do best, yet are indeed still One Church and without the need of much “dogma” either. Its all in the way we pray and what we say when we pray, K!

[kosta50]

Disagreeing is among the things we do best, yet are indeed still One Church and without the need of much “dogma” either. Its all in the way we pray and what we say when we pray, K!

That's because you can walk into any Orthodox church in the world and participate in the same liturgy that was served practically for the last 2,000 years (the Divine Liturgies of +Chysostom, +Basil and +James are variations in length; the last one is essentially as old as the Church) and not different "rites."

We are one litugically. We are what we pray. And we all pray the same. :)

[Friar Roderic Mary]

Ave Maria, Kalo,

May Our Lady give you peace.

My point refers to the fear expressed by so many people here that the word coredeemer might imply equality. I am not at all suggesting that everyone will jump for joy about the term just because they clearly understand it. You are reading way too much into what I have said. I don't think there is council or a magisterial decree of any stripe that ever made everyone happy. My claim is much more modest than that. It is simply that if a dogma is defined then the terms will be clearer, thats what you do when you define. You clarify! As to who would like such a definition once it is so clarified, is an entirely different story

It is near impossible not to conclude that the proponents of this notion are people ready to stop any dialog, let alone reunion, with Orthodoxy, even at the cost of heresy.

I hope this clarification clears up your fears of my intention of waging jihad.:) I'm still dialogging.

May Our Lady give you peace.

Ave Maria!

[Clemenza]

And they claim that Mormons are pagans...

[kosta50]

First of all, it’s refreshing to see some intelligent conversation about doctrine by souls who believe and love God!

Thank you, likewise.

On that note, I know what Panagia means, but perhaps one of you could give me and others who might scroll through these comments a fuller understanding of this beautiful title of Our Lady

Would you say a picture is worth a thousand words? :)

What can one say? Perhaps I can borrow the words of my favorite Catholic monk, Thomas Merton who says

All that has been written about the Virgin Mother of God proves to me that hers is the most hidden of sanctities.

What people find to say about her sometimes tells us more about their own selevs than it does about Our Lady, For since God has revealed very little to us about her, men who know nothing of who and what she was tend to reveal themselves when they try to add something to what God has told us about her. ["The Woman Clothed with the Sun," New Seeds of Contemplation]

If Mary has been neglected in the west, it is the Church that bears the responsibility for that. Kolokotronis aptly put it when he says to include her in the liturgy. There is no need for additional dogma. The Marian dogma of the Church going back to the 5th century is sufficient and infallible. It is up to the shepherds of the Church to make sure the faithful know it.

Our Divine Liturgy mentions her constantly, after each litany,

"Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God."

On Palm Sunday (Great lent) the first antiphon begins with: "By the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior, save us [three times]"

During the Trisagion Hymn the priest in a low voice prays

"Forgive our voluntary and involuntary transgressions, sanctify our souls and bodies, and grant that we may worship and serve You in holiness all the days of our lives, by the intercessions of the holy Theotokos and of all the saints who have pleased You throughout the ages."

Right after the consecration of the Precious Gifts, the priest says (in low voice):

"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith."

Then aloud: Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary.

and the People respond: It is truly right to bless you, Theotokos, ever blessed, most pure, and mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, without corruption you gave birth to God the Word. We magnify you, the true Theotokos.

After the Holy Communion

Priest (Returning to the holy Table, the priest transfers the portions of the Theotokos and of the saints into the holy Cup. Then he does the same for those of the living and the dead saying in a low voice):

Wash away, Lord, by Your holy Blood, the sins of all those commemorated, through the intercessions of the Theotokos and all Your saints. Amen.

Be exalted, O God, above the heavens. Let Your glory be over all the earth (3).

Priest (the priest lifts the holy Cup and says in a low voice):

Blessed is our God.

Priest: Always, now and forever and to the ages of ages.

People: Amen

In the Thanksgiving Prayer

Priest in low voice: "Direct our ways in the right path, establish us firmly in Your fear, guard our lives, and make our endeavors safe, through the prayers and supplications of the glorious Theotokos and ever virgin Mary and of all Your saints."

And so on...This rather lengthy illustration is to show the degree of presence of Theotokos in our services. We sing to her, we praise her, we honor her, we pray to her. She is with us in every Divine Liturgy and so one cannot be Orthodox and "neglect" Theotokos! As Kolo always says, we are what we pray. Lex orandi, lex credendi, even the Ecumenical patriarch +Barhtolomew I said that (in Latin!) during +BXVI's visit to the Patriarchy of Constantinople.

There is really no need to bestow more titles to her. Just birng her into your liturgical life and she will be with you always.

[Kolokotronis]

The first icon Kosta has posted is called "Platytera ton Uranon" (Broader than the Heavens). By its placement in the apse, it demonstrates that Panagia is the person who unites heaven, symbolized by Christ the Pantokrator icon in the top of the dome (not shown in Kosta's post), to earth, all of us, below in the nave. She is shown as having a womb which encompasses more than the entire universe since it contained the uncontainable Christ, shown on the icon on her lap. She is His throne. The orans position of her hands and arms demonstrates her constant prayer for and embrace of all of us. She is also here a symbol of the Church as our loving Mother and simultaneously as Queen of Heaven. It should be noted that she is shown in the "background" of Christ, which clearly demonstrates her humility and that her overarching significance is only in relation to her Son, Christ.

Here's another, the "Παναγία Τριχερούσα" the Panagia of the Three Hands. Note the third hand in the lower left of the icon. It symbolizes the Holy Spirit by whom she conceived Christ.

Icons are "theology in light and wood" and have taught us the faith since the days when +Luke wrote the Panagia Evangelistria. You don't need strained dogmas and definitions to understand the Mariology of the Christian East. You just need to look up.

[Friar Roderic Mary]

Ave Maria!

Loved the pictures. Awesome, Beautiful in artistry, theology and tradition!!

However, Beware of Merton. He became almost completely Buddhist toward the end.

and the Church is not to blame for the anti Marian spirit but rather a false interpretation of Vatican II. We have plenty of Marian devotionals, liturgies and para-liturgies in the Catholic Church including votive masses, processions, Statuary, Lady Chapels or at least side altars in every Church, hymns, novenas, rosaries, sodalities, you name it. But this is all being swept away (for a time. It is coming back already) in a very unofficial yet very pervasive false interpretation of Vatican II driven by a very modernist, humanist, horizontally-oriented, secular motive allinhereted from popular secular, amoral TV-like culture.

Vatican II documents are some of the most pro Marian documents the Church has ever produced. Of the eight chapters of Lumen Gentium the Marian Chapter is the second longest. It was drafted by one of the greatest Scotists of the time. (Fr. Maximilian, was that Belic?) In other words it is not the Church but a secular force from out side that wishes to reduce all things to a flat, horizontal egalitarian plane where no one can be exalted above anyone else including, Mary or even Christ, God Himself.

Thats how I see it.

Ave Maria!

[stfassisi]

“”However, Beware of Merton. He became almost completely Buddhist toward the end.””

Dear Brother,I,m glad you caught that .
Merton is mentioned as a “NEW AGE” figure in this Vatican Document on New Age

JESUS CHRIST
THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE

A Christian reflection
on the “New Age”
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

[fr maximilian mary]

Thank you both. Yes, the photos are beyond words. We too have our special hymns, images and devotions in the West flowing from the same ancient traditions. As noted,

“Prayer and a return to the traditional Marian faith and praxis of The Church in the West or better that of the East will destroy whatever heresy you may face within the Latin Church today.”

Friar Roderic (in Connecticut) and I (in New York) belong to a community that is striving to make the Immaculate known and loved in every heart that beats on the face of the earth using every licit means at our disposal. I myself have composed some Marian hymns. In fact Friar Roderic has posted two of my Marian hymns (Mother Mary Hide Me, and O Coredemptrix) at

www.AirMaria.com/?cat=22.

I’m off to a Day With Mary in Syracuse today—Rosary, Marian procession, hymns, votive Mass in honor of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, sermons, May crowning—these are the beautiful traditions of the West which are all but forgotten even amongst many of the clergy and which we are keeping alive, just as the Eastern tradition continues to pray the Akathist hymn and venerate (and write) icons:)

Peace...

[Augustine Marie]

Ave Maria!

I just joined this debate at fra Roderic’s invitation and I know I’m coming in late, but I couldn’t find any reply to your comment about the name “coredemption” being misleading.

I like the analogy of the copilot in a plane. Even though the copilot has the title of pilot in his name, this in no way implies that he is in any way equal with the pilot. Everyone knows that he is not the pilot and he in no way claims any equality with the pilot. Without the pilot he can do nothing - the plane just simply will not take off without the pilot. I don’t think the name copilot is misleading and so it is with Mary Coredemptrix.

No doubt that in these times the meaning of the title Coredemptrix needs to be explained and defined. Fr Frederick William Faber, in his wonderful book “The Foot of the Cross”, gives the following explaination of Coredemptrix which I will quote here in full:

1. Our Blessed Lord is the sole Redeemer of the world in the true and proper sense of the word, and in this sense no creature whatsoever shares the honor with Him, neither can it be said of Him without impiety that He is co-redeemer with Mary.

2. In a secondary dependent sense, and by participation, all the elect co-operate with our Lord in the redemption of the world.

3. In the same sense, but in a degree to which no others approach, our Blessed Lady co-operated with Him in the redemption of the world.

4. Besides this, and independent of her dolors, she co-operated in it in a sense, and after a manner, in which no other creatures did or could.

5. Furthermore, by her dolors, she co-operated in the redemption of the world in a separate and peculiar way, separate and peculiar not only as regards the co-operation of the elect, but also as regards her own other co-operation, independently of the dolors.

I hope this answers your comment about the name Coredemptrix being misleading.

Yours in Christ and His Most Holy Mother

Ave Maria!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights!

However, I remain deeply concerned for anyone who, upon hearing or reading a phrase which can be misunderstood, also himself fails to notice and/or comprehend and/or remember the footnote explanation for it. Other posts on this thread stand as evidence of the Spiritual error which can result from a failure to communicate.

I lift up in prayer all of my brothers and sisters in Christ, that God will help them each and every one to acheive the Spiritual understanding He wills for them at each stage of their mortal journey - and nothing other than that which He wills.

To God be the glory.

[kosta50]

Much obliged.

We too have our special hymns, images and devotions in the West flowing from the same ancient tradition

Yes, you do! The Latin tradition is rich, as this picture shows. and they used to look like Orthodox churches, or vice versa.

But many if not most post-Vatican II Catholic churches show bare walls that remind me more of Protestant places or worship. Where is that tradition yous peak of?

Orthodox churches (whether modern or not, whether big or small) are filled with icons of saints and angels and every Orthodox Church has Christ on the right and BEV Mary with the Child on the left of the icon stand (iconostasis). You can't miss it! She is ver-present and associated with Christ.

We are reminded that the Church is not jst a place or worship, but that this is where God physically appears, heaven on earth, and that if we were pure enough we could actually see and hear the saints and the angels singing the liturgy with us!

Hymns are nice, but they are not part of the liturgy and they don't carry the impact of the liturgy. The Novus Ordo Mass mentions Mary exactly four times, two of which are inaudible to the people.

Many a Catholc Churches has Mary's statues outside, and modern Catholic churches have no statues inside, just bare walls,for all practical purposes, and a rare icon in the back or at the foot [!] of the altar!!!!!

The Orthodox approach is that when in doubt we go BACK to the patristics and if we find that our praxis and beleifs are in conflict with the original Church we readjust ours to make sure we have not changed.

That which is true, whether God, His Church or the Faith He gave us, cannot change. Otherwise, we are treating theology as opinion, the Church as fashion, trend or practical necessity or individual taste.

[Kolokotronis]

“Beware of Merton. He became almost completely Buddhist toward the end.”

Ah, something we agree upon! I like the early Merton works. And his life is an example, or perhaps better put, an object lesson, to all monastics and indeed to all Christians who seek to follow, at least to some extent, an ascetical lifestyle whether in the world or in the “desert”. But towards the end, well, it is ironic he was electrocuted in Bangkok isn’t it!

Merton’s whole life demonstrates the importance of cultivating the spiritual virtue of discernment, something which he never, for all his other spiritual gifts, seems to have attained. His life as a monastic, especially his time in his hermitage and his syncretist end, reminds me of this story from +John Cassian’s Conferences. It has applicability to all of us:

“A recent example of the kind that I promised you will show the force of that description proclaimed of old by the blessed Anthony and by the other fathers. Think of what you recently saw happening before your very eyes. Remember the old man Hero who was cast down from the heights to the lowest depths because of a diabolical illusion.

I remember how he remained fifty years in this desert, keeping to the rigors of abstinence with a severity that was outstanding, loving the secrecy of the solitary life with a fervor marvelously greater than that of any one else dwelling here. After such toil how and why could he have been fooled by the deceiver? How could he have gone down into so great a ruin that all of us here in the desert were stricken with pain and grief? Surely the reason for it was that he had too little of the virtue of discernment and that he preferred to be guided by his own ideas rather than to bow to the advice and conferences of his brethren and to the rules laid down by our predecessors.

He practiced fasting so rigorously and so relentlessly, he was so given to the loneliness and secrecy of his cell, that even the special respect due to the Easter day could not persuade him to join the brethren in their meal. He was the only one who could not come together with all his brethren assembled in church for the feast, and the reason for this was that by taking the tiniest share of the vegetables he might give the impression of having relaxed from what he had chosen to do.

This presumptuousness led to his being fooled. He showed the utmost veneration for the angel of Satan, welcoming him as if he were actually an angel of light. Yielding totally to his bondage he threw himself headlong into a well, whose depths no eye could penetrate. He did so trusting completely in the assurance of the angel who had guaranteed that on account of the merit of his virtues and of his works he could never come to any harm. To experience his undoubted freedom from danger the deluded man threw himself in the darkness of night into this well. He would know at first hand the great merit of his own virtue when he emerged unscathed. He was pulled out half-dead by his brothers, who had to struggle very hard at it. He would die two days later. Worse, he was to cling firmly to his illusion, and the very experience of dying could not persuade him that he had been the sport of devilish skill. Those who pitied him his leaving had the greatest difficulty in obtaining the agreement of abbot Paphnutius that for the sake of the merit won by his very hard work and by the many years endured by him in the desert he should not be classed among the suicides and hence, be deemed unworthy of the remembrance and prayers offered for the dead.”

[kosta50]

However, Beware of Merton. He became almost completely Buddhist toward the end

I am aware of his 'reputation' but there is nothing Buddhist in His New Seeds of Contemplation. I am not exactly sure if he ever ebraced anything "New Age" except that he recognized that other rleigions have 'seeds' (or, as the Greeks say 'sporoi') of truth.

I ask you then: why bother quoting Origen or Tertullian from their orthodox days?

[kosta50]

Thank you, Kolo, for a beutiful explanation of the Panagia, her humility, her being a throne of Chirst, her containing the uncontainable Christ our God, her constant and pure prayer.