It's the Magisterium Pew36 Explosive Soul Redemptulator!
Posted on 05/16/2007 1:51:59 PM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary
If I quoted something of Merton's that was not orthodox, I would rightly be corrected, even admonished. Given that what I posted is orthodox as far as I can tell, I took your warning as an unnecessary sweeping generalization.
Now, if you can show me that his quote I posted is "Buddhist" I am more than ready tor retract my post.
I don't care what they say, no Martian is going to co-redeem me!
“I ask you then: why bother quoting Origen or Tertullian from their orthodox days?”
Truth be told, I’d far rather quote Merton from the earlier days than either of those fellows! The Latins seem somewhat enamored of both of them, though.
What you quoted is fine,so I,m sorry for causing you irritation.. because you said nothing wrong.
I,m also aware that many people read these threads and I feel it would be irresponsible for me not give information on Merton when his name came up.
These warnings don,t usually need to be made when using tertullion and Origin because most people are aware of this already and we generally quote them when it shows they are united with teachings on certain issues(Like sacraments) with the majority of the other Church fathers
I,m aware that the Vatican Document on the New age movement from a survey names Thomas Merton as one of the most influential NA writers along with the likes of Carl Jung, Teilhard de Chardin and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.This is not a good crowd to be associated with
The Mertons retreat centers are also not recommended by the Church.
I wish you a Blessed evening!
Again, I am sorry if I have offended you.
My “loose talk” got me in trouble (as usual—pray for me on this score!)—so I retract the notion of contingent being participating in the Divine Being—the other examples were sufficient for the point I was trying to make in #108. Obviously, from my statement and qualifiers, I in no way adhere to pantheism or losing the distinction between that being which is created and He who IS—uncreated, absolute, infinite...
We’d have to start a whole new blog to talk about St. Paul’s statement, “In Him we live and move and have our being”. But that is not the same as participation in Divine Being.
Or St. Augustine’s statement, “God became man so that man might become God”. This participation in the divine nature is, of course, through the Incarnation (2 Cor. 8:9; 2 Peter 1:4) and we retain our created nature even when it is “divinized” in Christ.
All of the Liturgies of the East and West, to my knowledge, reflect this notion of participating in the divine nature through the Incarnate Logos; in the Roman Catholic Mass the priest, at the Offertory, says: “By the mingling of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled Himself to share in our humanity.”
I know the Maronites have a similar line which the Deacon chants:
“You have united, O Lord, your Divinity with our Humanity
and Our Humanity with your Divinity
Your Life with our mortality and our mortality with your Life
You have assumed what is ours and given what is yours
For the life and salvation of our souls
To you be glory forever.”
At any rate, ignore my “loose talk” and know that my whole aspiration is to be united with God in the Heart of Christ Jesus, all through His Immaculate Virgin Mother who was elevated and divinized most perfectly above all the angels and saints.
Peace...
Wow! you realy gave me a scare! I had to go look at the title just to reasure myself that hadn’t actually made the typo. My spelling is so bad that it was highly plausable. Fortunately, I didn’t. But your right, I dont think Rome will go for the martian thing.
Ave Maria!
;O)
Dear Kosta, You did not offend me at all,I was concerned that I offended you.
This should help you gain some understanding of Merton
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=348T
I spent a few years diligently working to help others recognize the dangers of the NA movement that mostly effected the protestant communities rather then the Catholic/Orthodox Churches.
It is much easier for us to recognize these things because we have been battling these same old heresies for 2000 plus years.
As the old saying goes... “old heresies never die”, they just disguise themselves to fit a modern world.
The “ole boy” the devil does not abandon what worked thousands of years ago, he just changes them ever so slightly.
Truth be told.... It was my work on the NA movement that lead me to Historical Christianity and the Early Church Fathers that lead me back to coming back into Catholic Church
“”Truth be told.... It was my work on the NA movement that lead me to Historical Christianity and the Early Church Fathers that lead me back to coming back into Catholic Church. “”
I must also give credit to dear Jo kus who helped a great deal.
I sat outside of Free Republic for a little over a year monitoring the "mother of all threads"(I,m sure you know).
This goes to show that we must always be aware that what we say DOES have influence on others whether we realize it or not.
This is why we need to pray about what we post before we write it.
“To much is given much is expected”
I take this quote very serious and so should we all.
Here is the link to the music video at AirMaria.com that Fr. Maximilian mentioned complete with commercial promo :) Just click the graphic.
Ave Maria!
 Immaculate Music #4 - Fr. Maximilian and Michael Grogan sing of Mary Coredemptrix >>> Play |
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Ave Maria!
Fr. Maximilian and Michael Grogan continue their musical series from their live concert DVD. This selection is called Oh Coredemtrix, about Mary's role in our redemption and so is perfectly timed for Good Friday. It begins with a meditation and then puts these beautiful thoughts into the original music of Fr. Maximilian.
The CD / DVD set of this concert is available at our bookstore on MaryMediatrix.com. It is called “O Holy & Immaculate Heart.”
Ave Maria!
With all due respect, Father, I think you'll find that it was +Athanasius the Great who said that in "On the Incarnation".
The Eastern Fathers, as +Gregory Palamas points out, were uniform in their teaching that we do not come into a union with the Ουσια of our Triune God. Indeed, they also held that although we were created in the image and likeness of God, we cannot even actually "see" God.
"It is my opinion that our intellect does not have a natural power to be moved to the divine vision of Divinity. And in this one deficiency we are the peers of all the celestial natures, for both in us and in them grace moves that which is alien by nature both to the human intellect and to the angelic. For divine vision concerning the Godhead is not to be numbered among the other kinds of divine vision. For we possess divine vision of the natures of things through participation in their twofold nature, because there is a portion of all things in us. But we do not have a portion of the nature of the Divine Essence, and so neither do we have by nature divine vision of it." +Isaac the Syrian
What we can experience is the uncreated energy of God as a divine light, as the Apostles saw the light on Mt. Tabor at the Theophany. This energy "is" God, though not His essence. The Holy Spirit, we know, can take up a dwelling in us. So it seems that the Fathers teach that God enters us and through His grace transforms us. This is quite different from the popular, but pagan notion that the deification the Fathers speak of involves some sort of absorbtion into God, a sort of divine oblivion. I think that's one of the dangers with the idea that we come to share in the "Divine Nature".
"'Can a man take fire into his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?' (Prov. 6:27) says the wise Solomon. And I say: can he, who has in his heart the Divine fire of the Holy Spirit burning naked, not be set on fire, not shine and glitter and not take on the radiance of the Deity in the degree of his purification and penetration by fire? For penetration by fire follows upon purification of the heart, and again purification of the heart follows upon penetration by fire, that is, inasmuch as the heart is purified, so it receives Divine grace, and again inasmuch as it receives grace, so it is purified. When this is completed (that is, purification of heart and acquisition of grace have attained their fullness and perfection), through grace a man becomes wholly a god." +Symeon the New Theologian
and
"Moses and David, and whoever else became vessels of divine energy by laying aside the properties of their fallen nature, were inspired by the power of God... They became living ions of Christ, being the same as He is, by grace rather than by assimilation..." +Gregory Palamas
and
"The grace of deification thus transcends nature, virtue and knowledge, and (as St. Maximus says) `all these things are inferior to it.' Every virtue and imitation of God on our part indeed prepares those who practice them for divine union, but the mysterious union itself is effected by grace. It is through grace that `the entire Divinity comes to dwell in fullness in those deemed worth,' and all the saints in their entire being dwell in God, receiving God in His wholeness, and gaining no other reward for their ascent to Him than "God Himself." +Gregory Palamas
Anyway, its an important topic since it is definitional of what Eastern Christianity means when it speaks of "salvation" (theosis). Its rather different from popular Western Christian (not at all necessarily Latin Christian) notions about what, ultimately, it means to be "saved".
I trust you had a spiritually fruitful day, Father. Please pray for me at the Liturgy tomorrow.
I agree with the warning as opposed to anathema sit for early Merton and so to for Tertullian and Origen. Kosta, just wanted mention that we don’t call either Tertullian or Origen saints. But your right, Kalo, we westerners do seem enamored with them. Probably our western bias. :) I think Tertullian denied the virgin birth ?? or was that the perpetual virginity. Interesting because he went a stray under the influence of a woman who, I believe, had less than a virginal reputation. Does anyone have details on that?
I thk we all agree pretty much an many things here. I’ve been enjoying this.
Ave Maria!
THE FIFTH MARIAN DOGMA
Mary: Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/MEDIATRI.HTM
“Interesting because he went a stray under the influence of a woman who, I believe, had less than a virginal reputation. Does anyone have details on that?”
Tertullian came under the spell of a couple of “prophetesses” Priscilla and Maximilla who were Montanists. By the time he actually became a Montanist heretic himself, however, I believe they were both dead. Eventually he left the Montanists and set up his own sect which died out by the mid 5th century.
“I thk we all agree pretty much an many things here. I’ve been enjoying this.”
You and Fr. Max should hang around here. You’ll find out all sorts of interesting stuff.
Χαῖρε͵ νύμφη ἀνύμφευτε!
Why bother with Merton when we have St. Teresa of Avila on contemplative prayer. Right?
Time for me to go... My wife will be home from NYC soon.
I wish everyone a Blessed Evening!
kosta, I'm reasonably sure that Father did not write an exhaustive list of where Marian veneration exists in the Western tradition. FYI, she is quite present in the traditional liturgy. Not, only in the Mass, but in the Divine Office as well. Did you not notice Father's mention of a votive Mass in honor of our Our Lady's Immaculate Heart? or did that get in the way of your polemic?
While there are Catholic churches that seem to have an identity crisis, even those built in the US before, say, 1960 have statues, stained glass windows and beautiful high altars. Try entering the older churches that have been around 50+ years and you will very likely come to a different conclusion.
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