Posted on 06/18/2007 8:00:22 AM PDT by kellynla
The Pope has signed a document that re-opens the way to the optional use of the old Latin Mass, replaced by liturgy in the local language in the late 1960s, it was reported yesterday.
The document is expected to be published within the next few weeks. Known as a motu proprio, signifying that it is the Pope’s personal initiative, it reflects Benedict XVI’s thinking on the subject since long before he was elected pontiff.
While, as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, he was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, he repeatedly expressed sympathy for those Catholics who felt nostalgia for the traditional Latin rite which dated back to the Middle Ages, although when it came to discipline he took stern action against the ultra-conservative Catholic splinter group led by the French archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who rejected the reforms of the Second Vatican Council and for whom the use of the Latin Mass was a banner.
The question of whether to use a vernacular or Latin Mass has political implications for Catholics everywhere, and the text of the motu proprio has been the subject of intense discussions among Vatican officials for many months.
First, the old Latin rite was never abolished or forbidden but was rather “mothballed” and universally replaced by the local language version. In theory Mass in Latin could still be said but only with special permission from the local bishop for a particular occasion. This has occurred only very rarely.
Secondly, although Lefebvre was excommunicated in 1988 and died in 1991, the threat of an ultra-conservative Catholic movement rearing its head is deeply felt in the marble-flagged corridors of Vatican power. The old Latin rite could become, once again, a standard to which such a movement, could rally.
Thirdly, bishops in many countries, in particular in France where memories of the Lefebvre crisis are still vividly painful, have expressed concern that the option of holding Mass in Latin would lead to a split. Some churches, or possibly some dioceses, would adopt Latin, others would remain with the local language.
“We are awaiting publication with some anxiety,” said a senior Vatican official. “Everything hinges on the exact wording, and on the letter which will be released along with the motu proprioto explain the technicalities of its application by local bishops. The validity of the old Latin Rite has never been repealed, so now we have to see in what circumstances and to what extent the bishops should authorise its use.”
— The Pope’s support for the Latin Mass is only in a personal capacity. He is not speaking “ ex cathedra,” which means that what he says is infallible and that his followers are obliged to obey his words.
— Papal infallibility must meet strict conditions and is something that belongs to the pontiff alone.
— Even decisions that bear his signature are not infallible unless he issues them himself
Source: Catholic Encyclopaedia
ping
Toddlers do not eat on demand. They eat when they are hungry.
BS
You feed them BEFORE you go to Mass.
For forty years, I NEVER saw anyone bringing food into Mass.
So don’t run that line on me. This whole business of feeding, showing up late and dressing like they’re going to the beach has just occurred in the last ten or fifteen years. And if people can't control their children; there are child care facilities provided during Mass.
Sometimes I just shake my head at the way some articles are written. This one makes it sound like there’s going to be this giant schism in the church if the Latin rite is allowed. Well if that happens in France, so be it. But here in the U.S., I can predict what will happen if the Latin Rite is re-instituted.
Bishops probably will leave it up to individual parishes to decide whether to offer a Latin Mass and if so, at what time of the day. They may require the local Cathedral (the seat of the Diocese) to hold a Mass in Latin. Otherwise, a Parish can designate which of their 5 to 6 Masses will be celebrated in Latin. And either people will come.....or they won’t.
The popularity of the Mass will dictate whether it would be continued or not. I suspect as the generation that dates back to Vatican I - those that remember (fondly) the Latin Rite - leaves for their own heavenly reward, the popularity of this form of Mass will subside as none of us Vatican II people would understand it without some form of classroom study.
Otherwise, the media is making a much bigger thing out of this than it is. Those who want to go will go. Those who don’t - won’t.
After reading a bazillion of these “it’s coming” articles over the last year, I’m starting to think of them as a barrage softening up the entrenched defenses.
Nobody that has paid attention to news regarding the Church will be able to say, “He’s doing what?!!”.
“Toddlers do not eat on demand. They eat when they are hungry?”
And one last point, then I’m off to work.
My grandparents & parents raised 18 children and they would have NEVER considered feeding children in Mass much less even showing up at Mass with food. Feeding children when they are hungry is the tail wagging the dog. There is such a thing as instilling discipline and a routine.
Of course, you are probably one of those people who takes their children to the grocery and asks them “what do you want to eat?” LMAO
And we would have NEVER showed up for Mass without the men wearing a coat & tie and the ladies in a dress & hat or at least a veil on their head. (There was a time when wearing your “Sunday best” meant something.)
After all, it is a matter of respect and you are in the House of God!
Good day!
If it were just the old stuck in the muds that wanted this it would never have gotten this far. People want authenticity, and the church producing a liturgy that is more like the episcopalians than the Roman Canon is what has led to a diminishment of enthusiasm in the church.
It doesn’t take a DD to understand the Latin mass. Latin is still the official language of the Latin Rite — and the Latin Rite is the church of which we are a part, not the words that the Priest says on Sunday.
Thirdly, the way it stands now is that the bishop designates a parish to present this liturgy. This motu proprio promises to make it more widely available to parishes that want it.
Also, it’s not like it’s going to require the latin service. It’s an option, likely to be said once a weekend in parishes that have a priest willing and able to say it.
You yourself seem to have a rather hazy idea of what this is all about — perhaps you should spend less time shaking your head at others and more educating yourself.
I suppose it would be a waste of time for these people to point out that we’re not supposed to eat an hour before Mass, and when we were kids we weren’t supposed to eat anything from midnight the night before.
Nice language, oh holier-than-thou one.
You feed them BEFORE you go to Mass.
You certainly try to - but you cannot time a toddler's appetite.
For forty years, I NEVER saw anyone bringing food into Mass.
Mothers of newborns are physically incapable of not bringing food into Mass.
And if people can't control their children; there are child care facilities provided during Mass.
Oh, of course. Because 40 years ago, parishes operated day care centers for children during Mass. I wish I had a potty-mouthed phrase ready to hand.
As I consult Matthew 19:14 I cannot help but see the flaw in your analysis.
Children learn to love the Mass by attending it with their parents every Sunday and holy day, attending it and watching their parents and siblings pray it, attending it before they realize how to behave at it or what it actually means.
This coming Sunday my wife and I will bring our children to Mass and Jesus Christ - present in their midst in the Holy Eucharist - will not mind that my little children came to Him, even if they have Cheerios in their tiny mouths.
I know for a fact that He prefers them to come to Him rather than having them stowed in some daycare facility so sour old ladies can remain undisturbed in their self-righteousness.
That rule applies to communicants, not to those who haven't reached the age of reason.
I have a couple of questions for she who knows all:
Did Saint Francis wear a suit and tie to Mass? Or did he go barefoot, wearing a ragged cloak full of patched holes?
Theologically speaking, when one is wearing one's morally compulsory tie, is the half-Windsor or full Windsor more orthodox?
The only response your inane remarks warrant at this point is my tagline.
I have to agree with ichabod1. There’s actually a huge resurgence of interest in the Latin Mass among younger folks who only knew the new Mass growing up (my wife and I were born in the 70s).
Yes, there is some nostalgia factor, but the sheer number of young families at Latin Mass parishes like mine is a pretty good indication that it will be here to stay once they put it in place.
You wrote: “Toddlers do not eat on demand. They eat when they are hungry.”
Toddlers eat when they’re fed. If you don’t want them to eat for an hour, then don’t feed them for that hour.
If you go to a Tridentine Latin Mass, the two age groups represented the most are usually the very elderly and people under 40. The younger group is interesting in that, as you imply, most have no natural recollection of anything other than the new rite in the vernacular. Yet for whatever reason, there is a noteworthy number who are attracted.
If you've never been to one, I encourage you to go at least once. Most parishes provide paperback missals that have both the Latin and English printed in them. You won't be able to follow along perfectly the first time, but that's ok.
Those who want to go will go. Those who don’t - won’t.
For whatever reason, there are many people who fail to grasp that. I'm glad to see you get it.
You wrote:
“Did Saint Francis wear a suit and tie to Mass?”
Suits and ties didn’t yet exist. Next question:
“Or did he go barefoot, wearing a ragged cloak full of patched holes?”
Yep, he wore something like - but then again, that was all he had. If you have better, wear it. Give your best to God. He gives His best, His Son, to us.
“Theologically speaking, when one is wearing one’s morally compulsory tie, is the half-Windsor or full Windsor more orthodox?”
Full Windsor of course - unless the person in question doesn’t know how to tie such a knot.
Any other questions?
You wrote:
“I suspect as the generation that dates back to Vatican I - those that remember (fondly) the Latin Rite - leaves for their own heavenly reward, the popularity of this form of Mass will subside as none of us Vatican II people would understand it without some form of classroom study.”
I don’t think any classroom study would be necessary. Let’s face it: even the Mass in the vernacular is barely understood by people on anything approaching a theological level by most people. Those who go to the Latin Mass, however, are routinely more interested in learning the faith than their new Mass counterparts. Most people who want to learn about the old Mass just buy old or reprinted books about. Missals are often good sources of information.
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