Posted on 08/03/2007 4:32:13 PM PDT by topcat54
And some folks have a theory, based on scant, taken out of context scripture, that we have experienced end times and are in the millennium - go figure.
You have not proved from Scripture that you know what God means. The plain literal meaning is that horses mean horses, not F-16s.
Let's clear up the "F-16's" first. You are being much too literal. I mean machines of war "like", F-16's, tanks, helicopters, whatever - just machines of war in place of horses and chariots of war.
Zech.6:1 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass
Unless you think these mountains are literal brass you will understand that they are nations.
2.In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
3.And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
4.Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, "What are these, my lord?"
5.And the angel answered and said unto me, 'These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.
Notice the horses were "in" the chariots, not pulling them. They aren't horses. The angel then tells us that they are the "four spirits". Whenever the 4 spirits are mentioned they always have to do with the end of this age. Rev.7, Daniel 7, Ezekiel 37.
You gave this scripture and I'm not sure why. Perhaps to make it fit your idea that we're in the millennium. "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18)
Top Cat to fully understand that you must start at vs. 17:
17.And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Now read vs. 18 and you understand that John is speaking about the end of our age. The world hasn't "passeth away" yet. That is the "last hour" when anti-christ comes.
"But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, ..." (Acts 2:16,17)
I don't know why you posted that scripture. What does it have to do with what we are discussing? Do you think that has already taken place? Do you think the anti-christ has already come and gone?
There is no legitimate indication that horses will play any prominent role in modern warfare now or in the future in the Middle East. Such a position is pure speculation, and is merely one of convenience to explain away the plain teaching of certain Scripture passages.
What difference does it make? You're still "spiritualizing" the passage in order to apply it far in the future. It says "horses", not tanks or helicopters or artillery.
Zech.6:1 And I turned, and lifted … Why the need to suddenly turn to Zech 6 when you haven’t even been able to explain Zech 12-14. You have not demonstrated any connection between the horses in chapter 6 and the ones in the later chapters. The context is entirely different.
“In that day," says the Lord, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.”
Now, tell me why this would be such a great calamity when horses are no longer a primary/important means of transportation and commerce?
I don't know why you posted that scripture.
Apparently.
Who said anything about a "prominent role"??? Can you state unequivocably that horses will not be there at all??? or that they will not have atleast a "bit" part in the drama???
See my response to Ping. It makes no sense for God to mention the trouble to fall upon horse and rider unless they are prominent.
"In that day," says the Lord, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness."
It's no big deal to "strike every horse with confusion" if no one is using horses for anything significant. It's like God saying today, "I'll take away all your buggy whips and button hooks." Who would notice?
So just when did chapter 13-14 of Zechariah take place if it is not yet future???? or is God just going to have to erase those two chapters from the scriptures because they don't ride horses over there anymore???
Since the entire Old Testament, all the law and the prophets, anticipated the coming of Messiah into the world, the best explanation is to understand these chapters in the context of what happened when Jesus Christ came to save His people from their sins, and the ongoing work of establishing His kingdom over the kingdoms of the earth, putting all nations under His feet.
IOW, you cannot understand these chapters without turning to the pages of the New Testament to examine the fulfillment. There we find things like Jerusalem as not so much referring to the physical city on earth, but the heavenly city within the righteous dwell in peace and security.
21 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband." 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. (Gal. 4)And again, we read in Hebrews 12:
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.The common mistake of many folks is to attempt to read the Old Testament prophecies in isolation or in opposition to the reality of the New Testament. If the New Testament apostles and writers understood Jerusalem principally in a spiritual rather than earthly sense, why do people force themselves to see things differently?
I don't think it is "far" in the future at all, nor do I think it was in the past. It does say horses but it should not be taken literally (as many things in the Bible), especially when what they are is explained to you by the Angel of God. That leaves no room for interpretation.
Zech.6:1 And I turned, and lifted … Why the need to suddenly turn to Zech 6 when you haven’t even been able to explain Zech 12-14. You have not demonstrated any connection between the horses in chapter 6 and the ones in the later chapters. The context is entirely different.
So you believe the "horses" in chapter one are not the same as the "horses" in chapter 6? They are the same horses and what they are is explained to us so there could be no mistake:
6:5 (the reply after asking what the horses were) And the angel answered and said unto me, "These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.
You say that I haven't explained what they are but I'm showing you that the Angel of the Lord has.
Now, tell me why this would be such a great calamity when horses are no longer a primary/important means of transportation and commerce?
It wouldn't be if they were actual horses. The scripture is speaking of the Lord's Day, when His wrath pours out on anyone going against the house of Judah. He is speaking about the armies that come against her. His army against their army.
"I don't know why you posted that scripture."....Apparently.
That was your chance to explain. Why didn't you?
If the New Testament apostles and writers understood Jerusalem principally in a spiritual rather than earthly sense, why do people force themselves to see things differently?
Because they are looking forward to the time we will live in Jerusalem in our spiritual bodies but it will be on earth.
So then chapters 13-14 of Zechariah took place in heaven not on earth??? or are they going to take place in heaven not on earth??? or are you going to have to resort to allegorizations now that will make that allegorical horse a pale horse by comparison????
I'm not clear on your meaning. I find folks often throw out that word as a reaction against any interpretation with which they are not personally comfortable.
Let me see if I understand; do you believe the concept of the heavenly Jerusalem as expressed in the New Testament is an allegory?
Ugh.
But far in the future from the perspective of the writer of the original prophecy?
especially when what they are is explained to you by the Angel of God.
Hmmm, not sure what that means. Do you have some direct knowledge not available to the rest of us?
So you believe the "horses" in chapter one are not the same as the "horses" in chapter 6? They are the same horses and what they are is explained to us so there could be no mistake:
Oh, I see. Where are the angel’s explanation of “horses” in Zech. 12? I’m still not seeing the connection between chapter 6 and chapter 12. The language is significantly different. One involves a vision that needs interpretation, the other does not.
You say that I haven't explained what they are but I'm showing you that the Angel of the Lord has.
No, what I said was that you have not explained the connection. And you still have not.
That was your chance to explain. Why didn't you?
In Acts 2, Peter uses “end times” language from the prophet Joel to describe the fulfillment of that prophecy on the day of Pentecost. It was the “day of the Lord” in every sense. Not the “day of the Lord” that most folks who do not understand biblical language are expecting, but the true “day of the Lord”.
I was only trying to help you out by giving pointers from the New Testament how those concepts are explained and used.
Are you talking about Rev. 21 stuff?
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
To both of you: I recognize my understanding of eschatology has it's weak areas. So do the preterists, and ALL the others. It seems "No-one" has it nailed (perfectly correct). A brother of mine (who has spent years researching eschatology) said, "It seems that God purposely made it this way".
I think it would presumptuous on my part to claim horses are REALLY F16's. That is a weak area in my understanding and I would need to say that topcat is CLOSER to being right on this point.
Still, I deny, and can try to prove, Biblically, that Jesus statement of "...this generation" meant us, also.
(Sorry to sorta "barge in" here. I've been finding myself more and more in the religion forum and I've been looking to participate. If I, or my comments, aren't welcome, I'll look for another thread.)
There are two separate and distinct Jerusalems --- the one on earth and the one in heaven. The "Jerusalem that is above", "the heavenly Jerusalem", is the New Jerusalem of Revelation and is distinct from the Jerusalem of earth.
Which Jerusalem was Zechariah describing??? Does he use the words "heavenly" or "new" or "that is above" to describe the Jerusalem of which he is writing??? He doesn't. He is writing about the Jerusalem of earth. Neither can be allegorized away nor confused.
Feel free to jump in anytime -— BTW I repented of my brief descent into allegory in later posts and am currently doing penance :)
My favorite paragraph/part is this:
2 Cor. 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
When once 2 Corinthians 13:8 is affirmed without reserve and all contrary thoughts are dismissed as falsehood and lies, all desperation to “win” arguments dissipates. It is when a man FEARS that “his truth” may not be vindicated that he rushes into reckless tactics and aggressive behaviors in the attempt to “win the argument” with other men. He needs to feel vindicated before other men in the discussion.
But, you fail to account for the fact that nowhere in the Old Testament do we see the concept of the heavenly Jerusalem spelled out as we do in the New. So what you are suggesting is a variation on the argument from silence. Indeed, since the NT give us a fuller and more complete comprehension of what we find in the OT, we must account for this fuller interpretation when we approach the text. For example, while there are many instances of “Jerusalem” found in the NT, we never see Jesus or the apostles identify earthly Jerusalem as a haven for God’s people. The emphasis is on the heavenly Jerusalem. Does not this fact indicate something about the true meaning of “Jerusalem” throughout the Bible?
I think that we have been beating a dead horse long enough. What is your take on "this generation"?
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