Posted on 08/03/2007 4:32:13 PM PDT by topcat54
The Bride is described in Revelation:
Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
England is England. New England is New England.
Jerusalem is Jerusalem. New Jerusalem is New Jerusalem.
Separate and distinct
That sure throws a wrench into a lot of theologies and will send a lot of people back into their Bibles.
First, may I say that I was asked last year to teach a Bible study on the end times?
Previous to that, I had an interest in eschatology, but I didn't (and STILL don't) have an absolute firm, undeniable EXPLANATION. In some ways (not looking for sympathy here...just stating the obvious), I felt VERY unqualified...and still do. I didn't like the fact that I was asked to teach from a book (the study book) that I knew very little about...and stated that I WILL point out error as I see it.
In short: I was asked to teach on a subject that is UNsettled doctrine, from a study book that I have never taught FROM.
So...
One of the first things I began to notice in Matt 25-25 is the use of pronouns that Jesus used. "Ye" vs. "They" (and similar).
Another thing I noticed is that Jesus, apparently, NEVER taught in the temple again (according to Matt.) after the end of Matt. 23. (Read Matt 23:38 and you'll see what I mean.)
So...I began reading through Matt. "backwards"...reading each chapter...then the one prior...and then the prior chapter...until I came to an astounding (to me) set of verses.
Matt 12:46-50
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
MY conclusion: Is Jesus alive today? (I say, "Yes")
Are Jesus' brother, sister and mother alive? (I say, "Yes").
...then "THIS GENERATION" has not passed...
Again, pay attention to the "ye" vs. "they".
It is my understanding that in this passage, Jesus used His words carefully and the "they" ain't the "ye".
(As a side note, as I was writing this, I felt a 'nudge' to look into Hebrews 3. I think something is to be gleaned from that chapter. Maybe chapter 4, also?)
Above I said: One of the first things I began to notice in Matt 25-25 is the use of pronouns that Jesus used. "Ye" vs. "They" (and similar).
It was a typo. I meant Matt 24-25 (chapters)
Yes, of course you're right TopCat. I see what you mean.
Oh, I see. Where are the angel’s explanation of “horses” in Zech. 12? I’m still not seeing the connection between chapter 6 and chapter 12. The language is significantly different. One involves a vision that needs interpretation, the other does not.
They both have to do with the "Day of the Lord".
I was only trying to help you out by giving pointers from the New Testament how those concepts are explained and used.
Thank you for doing that. As I don't see some things as you do your explanation is helpful. I see how you can have that line bolster your belief that the Day of the Lord has happened. I don't think that is what it means.
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, 'saith God,.....
I understand that to mean that what had just happened, people speaking in tongues that everyone could understand, was foretold by Joel. Pentecost was our example for what will happen in end times, or as Joel put it, "in the last days".
I believe this is the same event Luke told us about in 21:15
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Both the prophecy of Joel and the scripture in Luke tell us that there will be signs in the heavens. Joel tells us that "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved", while Luke tells us that even our enemies won't be able to resist His truth.
That is an interesting take on that scripture. I come at it from a different angle.
To me "This generation" is the generation he is speaking about, not to. The generation that will be there when those events happen.
To think He meant the generation He was speaking to wouldn't make any sense. The chapter is about what will happen in the end of days. Immediately before the "this generation" He described that time and then immediately after He described that time. The events He described haven't happened so it could not be the generation standing in front of Him then.
So....that's how I read it.
The bride of Christ is the Church. Rev. 21 make that clear from the description. The new Jerusalem is the Church, the true people of God. It is made up of all the saints from the Old Testament as well as the New Testament, as pictured by the names of the 12 apostles and 12 tribes of Israel.
"A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this."
That could be this generation.
For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
Speculation aside, I’m just wondering if any of you can point out a passage where Jesus uses the phrase “this generation” in reference to any group of people other than His contemporary generation of Jews?
A bit fixated on this topic?
This constant harping on this topic shows a divisive carnal spirit and someone who is totally imbalanced, kind of like the Birchers who used to harp, harp, harp on the CFR.
No, topcat54, the Bride is the city....based on a plain reading of the verse and the chapter.
You are actually making the same mistake you've accused others of (I think). You've made something plain, in scripture, into something else. Nowhere in scripture is the Bride of Christ called the Church. It ain't found in scripture.
Furthermore, as proof, I ask you to read what John the Baptist said about himself:
John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
John the Baptist SAID he was the FRIEND of the bridegroom. (NOT the Bride). Or did John the Baptist lie??
Matthew 25 describes 10 virgins...not "brides".
Still, I understand the "idea" when reading Paul and the "mystery".
Yep. That is exactly how i read it. so i was forced to come up with a "reasonable" explanation, thus my diatribe above.
Perhaps in the morning I'll something concrete?....and maybe not.
And other verses as well. Note also Matthew 9:15: "Can the sons of the bridegroom fast as long as the bridegroom is with them?"
[His disciples were the sons of the bridegroom not the bride.]
Then we have Isaiah 49:
"But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me. Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee. Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth."
[Jerusalem here is the bride and those who gather themselves to Jerusalem are the children or ornaments adorning the bride.]
This is affirmed by Paul in Galatians 4:26:
"Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
[not "us all" but "the mother of us all"]
The New Jerusalem which is above is the "mother of us all" and "the bride, the Lamb's wife".
I believe the "seed" are His elect and are living now, in "this generation" - the generation He spoke of on Matthew 24:34. When telling us about that/this time He insructed us to:
Matt.24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; when his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: (33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
When "summer is nigh" it is time to harvest, it's at the door. He then follows that with vs.34 and tells us that is the generation of the end when "all these things be fulfilled." I believe the "fig tree" generation began in 1948, when the nation of Israel was established. Some of us born near that time are getting pretty mature and ready to harvest. The generations given in the Bible are 40, 70 and 120 years.
That "fig tree" runs through the Bible, beginning in the Garden through the fig tree Christ cursed in Matthew 21. It is important! The parable of the fig tree is given to us in Jeremiah 24:1-10 (that whole chapter is about the figs)
He tells us that two baskets of figs were set out in Jerusalem. (1)One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad. Those two baskets are there now and the "good basket of figs" were "set out" in 1948.
3.Then said the Lord unto me, "What seest thou, Jeremiah?" And I said, "Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil." So evil they blow their own children up in the name of their god.
Yes, Uncle Chip I believe we are the generation He spoke of - it is at the door.
I would say the bride is the city and the city is the church and the church is the bride.
A city is defined by its inhabitants. Old Jerusalem was only important because it was the place where God's people lived and worshipped Him. It had no intrinsic value.
If you look at the description of the city in Rev. 21 you will see the same emphasis. Gates with the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel; foundation stones with the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. The unity of God’s people throughout the ages is in view. The city is spoken of as having the glory of God. God shares His glory with people, not things. The city is adorned with precious stones and jewels. Again, these are things with a bridegroom gives to His bride (Isa. 61:10).
Galatians 4 makes it clear that these things, the new Jerusalem, are symbols. They represent something. The thing it represents is the faithful company of all believers, the “general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven”.
God’s people -- not a mere city -- are His brief, His wife, (Isa. 54:6; Rev. 19:7).
Eph 5:31-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church..
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