Unlocking the Convert's Heart

Catholic Education ^ | November 2007 | Marcus Grodi

[BipolarBob]

That is excellent. I have a hectic schedule myself. 12-hour days. Yuck. Take your time. I am really interested in your answers. I am not doing this just to have someone to argue with but I do make my points from my perspective and background. I am certainly not trying to steer you to another church or religion. If I have not heard from you by Sunday I will freepmail you.

[Ping-Pong]

I don't know of anyone by that name. Why would I want to answer you in private? Is this relevant to the subject?

Your last question says it all.

So often, if a subject can't be debated because of the strength of an argument it can often turn into an attempt to instead cast a bad light on what is perceived as the source.

It is not a winning game with you as your source is always the Word of God.

[NYer]

Why does your church have a pope? What is his authority? Is apostolic succession Biblical? Again, please use scripture as reference.

Let's begin with the first question. Scripture is pretty straightforward about the Church's role in salvation, Its authority and Its organization.. You have an excellent command of Scripture and have probably been shown on multiple occasions by many freepers, those passages that support how Peter was chosen from among the 12 to shepherd the Church. Rather than repeat what others have said, I will summarize it with the following verses.

Matt 16:1 8 Peter was the Rock upon which Christ would build His Church. Matthew writing in Greek uses the masculine form of the word Rock (sometimes meaning "stone") rather than the feminine form to refer to Peter for very obvious reasons. However, since Jesus spoke Aramaic, the word He used to rename Peter was "Cephas," always meaning Rock (See John 1:42). Paul thus uses "Cephas" to refer to Peter throughout I Corinthians. So Jesus actually said to Peter, "Thou art Cephas and upon this Cephas I will build My Church." This did not make Peter or any of his successors sinless or free from personal error by any means. It means that Peter's teaching in all official capacities as head of the Church will represent the mind of Christ infallibly. Peter later denied Christ and even compromised the Gospel by his actions. Some later Popes fell into scandalous living, but neither Peter or these Popes introduced their errors into the Church as truth, as happened with Bishops at various times in every other center of Christianity in the world and in all Protestantism.

Matt 16:19 Peter also is made the Prime Minister of New Israel, the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. In the King's absence he would act with the full authority of the King, just as all prime ministers do. To Peter, Jesus said, "And I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven."

Isaiah 22:15-22 offers absolute proof Peter was being commissioned as Prime Minister by the King of New Israel to act in His authority in this world. Here King Hezekiah's Prime Minister Shebna is replaced by Elialcim and given the very same authority as was Peter in Matt 16:19. Peter's Primacy is also Manifest Throughout Acts though he was not the first to be chosen, nor the most spiritual.

In Acts 1:13-26, he led in the selection of Mathias the Apostle; 2: 14-41 led in the preaching on Pentecost; 3:6 7 performed the first miracle; 3:12-4:19 preached the second great message whereby 5,000 converted; 5:1-11 led in the first judgment in the Church; 8:14-17 opened the door of the Church to the Samaritans; 8:21 excommunicated the first heretic Simon Magnus; 10:44,46 opened the door of the Church to Gentiles; 15:7,19 brought a conclusion to the first council in Jerusalem and pronounced the first dogmatic decision. In all four listings of the Apostles, Peter's name is always first.

As for the pope's authority, as I mentioned earlier, it was given to him by Chirst - Matthew 18:18. God in His infinite Wisdom and Love, set in place a shepherd to resolve disputes. This authority was never questioned as evidenced by the many writings of the early christians. For example, the following was written by Pope Clement I to the Church in Corinth.

"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy"
(Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80])

Is Apostolic Succession biblical? The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

The Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, regularly appealed to apostolic succession as a test for whether Catholics or heretics had correct doctrine. This was necessary because heretics simply put their own interpretations, even bizarre ones, on Scripture. Clearly, something other than Scripture had to be used as an ultimate test of doctrine in these cases.

Thus the early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes, "[W]here in practice was [the] apostolic testimony or tradition to be found? . . . The most obvious answer was that the apostles had committed it orally to the Church, where it had been handed down from generation to generation. . . . Unlike the alleged secret tradition of the Gnostics, it was entirely public and open, having been entrusted by the apostles to their successors, and by these in turn to those who followed them, and was visible in the Church for all who cared to look for it" (Early Christian Doctrines, 37).

Here again, given our Lord's command to preach to all nations. In Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world. Similarly, in Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." When we hear the bishops' teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

In Acts 1:15-26, the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority. Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown. Even Paul, who was directly chosen by the Risen Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop (Acts 9:17-19)

We see in 2 Cor. 2:17 that Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God's word. They are actually commissioned by God. It is not self-appointed authority. And then in 2 Cor. 3:6 Paul says that certain men have been qualified by God to be ministers of a New Covenant. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of Christ handed down the ages through sacramental ordination. Sirach 7:29-30 reminds us that With all your soul fear the Lord and honor His priests. With all your strength, love your Creator, forsake not his ministers.. God is not threatened by the authority He gives His children! God, as our Loving Father, invites us to participate in His plan of salvation with His Son Jesus. Without authority in the Church, there is error, chaos and confusion.

So ... let's 'test' this by reading accounts from some of the early christians.

"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties."
Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98)

"Hegesippus in the five books of Memoirs which have come down to us has left a most complete record of his own views. In them he states that on a journey to Rome he met a great many bishops, and that he received the same doctrine from all. It is fitting to hear what he says after making some remarks about the epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. His words are as follows: 'And the church of Corinth continued in the true faith until Primus was bishop in Corinth. I conversed with them on my way to Rome, and abode with the Corinthians many days, during which we were mutually refreshed in the true doctrine. And when I had come to Rome I remained a there until Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And Anicetus was succeeded by Soter, and he by Eleutherus. In every succession, and in every city that is held which is preached by the law and the prophets and the Lord.'"
Hegesippus, Memoirs, fragment in Eusebius Ecclesiatical History, 4:22 (A.D. 180).

"It is my purpose to write an account of the successions of the holy apostles, as well as of the times which have elapsed from the days of our Saviour to our own; and to relate the many important events which are said to have occurred in the history of the Church; and to mention those who have governed and presided over the Church in the most prominent parishes, and those who in each generation have proclaimed the divine word either orally or in writing... When Nero was in the eighth year of his reign, Annianus succeeded Mark the evangelist in the administration of the parish of Alexandria...Linus ...was Peter's successor in the episcopate of the church there...Clement also, who was appointed third bishop of the church at Rome."
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History,1:1,2:24, (A.D. 325)

Clearly, it was Christ’s intent to provide for an orderly succession of pastors to lead the church. That’s what apostolic succession is all about: it’s the unbroken chain from Christ to the apostles to their successors through the centuries, down to the present-day bishops of the Catholic Church. It’s important to note that the church doesn’t put these men over the Bible and Tradition. As the Second Vatican Council noted, these leaders are under the authority of God’s word and are subject to it, like every other follower of Christ (see Dei Verbum , par. 10). Their job is to serve the word of God by teaching and interpreting it so that we can take it as the guide of our lives without falling into all sorts of distortions. To exemplify this, those who watched the funeral of JPII will recall that when the casket came into view: a plain pine box, and on top of it, an open book of the Gospels with its pages fluttering in the breeze. This was a powerful statement about what leadership in the church is all about! Right there, atop the simple coffin, was the message: the pastors of the church are under the word of God. They are at the service of the word.

Wind blows the pages of the New Testament on the coffin containing the body of Pope John Paul II.

[BipolarBob]

Because of time constraints I will make short posts as I am able. The three times that Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him was to show publicly that Peter had repented of his denials. Peter had earned the distrust of his fellow disciples on his abilities and apostleship and this acknowledgment that Christ accepted his word and worth was to re-instate Peter as a fellow apostle. This was not a position of superiority but one of equality. This was also for Peters benefit as he probably had self doubts as well. To deny the Lord is/was a serious offense. But there is no text to indicate Peter was “over” the others, although at times he had a leadership role in certain undertakings. 1Peter 5:1 shows equality.

[BipolarBob]

You said "Still reflecting on Matthew 16:19, Peter alone was promised something else: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven". You are correct in recognizing the important symbolism of these words. In ancient times, keys were the hallmark of authority.

We will all be given the keys to heaven if are His followers. Peter was given no greater authority than the other disciples. He was re-instated with equal authority (in front of the other disciples) to quench any quarrels amongst the disciples. Peter had certainly been in hot water before.(Matt 16:23)This following Matt16:19 (Catholics favorite verse)which is really no different than Matthew 10:1-14 which outlines the apostles powers.

[BipolarBob]

As far as as tradition and apostolic succession, the Catholic church does not have twelve modern day “apostles”. I would think that would be more traditional than one pope. Also I do not find the word “pope” in my Bible. This makes any suggestion that such a position is Biblical more than suspect.

[NYer]

Because of time constraints I will make short posts as I am able.

Bob ... take your time. This is a discussion, not a race.

The three times that Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him was to show publicly that Peter had repented of his denials.

Perhaps. On the surface of things, that is the first impression one takes away.

Peter had earned the distrust of his fellow disciples on his abilities and apostleship and this acknowledgment that Christ accepted his word and worth was to re-instate Peter as a fellow apostle.

Hmmmm .... distrust of his fellow disciples? Is that a gut feeling or one you have drawn from a specific passage in Scripture? According to Acts 1,2,3,4,5,8,15, no one questions Peter's authority to speak for the Church, declare anathemas, and resolve doctrinal debates. Peter is the rock on which the Church is built who feeds Jesus’ sheep and whose faith will not fail.

This was not a position of superiority but one of equality.

That sounds like a conclusion you have drawn from YOPIOS (your own personal interpretation of Scripture). I believe I addressed this in my post #73.

One compelling biblical fact that points clearly to Simon Peter’s primacy among the 12 Apostles and his importance and centrality to the drama of Christ’s earthly ministry, is that he is mentioned by name (e.g. Simon, Peter, Cephas, Kephas, etc.) 195 times in the course of the New Testament. The next most often-mentioned Apostle is St. John, who is mentioned a mere 29 times. After John, in descending order, the frequency of the other Apostles being mentioned by name trails off rapidly.

When the names of all the Apostles are listed, Peter is always first. Judas Iscariot, the Lord’s traitor, is always listed last (cf. Matt. 10:2-5; Mark 3:16-19; Luke 6:14-17; and Acts 1:13). Sometimes Scripture speaks simply of “Simon Peter and the rest of the Apostles” or “Peter and his companions” (cf. Luke 9:32; Mark 16:7; Acts 2:37), showing that he had a special role that represented the entire apostolic college. Often, Scripture shows Simon Peter as spokesman for the entire apostolic college, as if he were the voice of the Church (cf. Mat. 18:21; Mark 8:29; Luke 8:45; Luke 12:41; John 6:68-69).
The Primacy of Peter

You are neglecting to factor in Luke 22:32 where Jesus prays for Peter, that his faith may not fail. Jesus' prayer for Peter's faith is perfectly efficacious, and this allows Peter to teach the faith without error (which means infallibly).

Take a closer look at Matt. 16:18 where Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. And also Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

[NYer]

We will all be given the keys to heaven if are His followers.

Bob, you are not following the Scriptural discourse that you insisted upon! The keys are symbolic. When you and I die and eventually reach Heaven (if that be the will of God), you will not be handed a set of keys. God will not place you or me in charge. Only Christ holds those keys! And He chose to "give" them to Peter when He made him "Prime Minister", get it? The keys are symbolic.

Peter was given no greater authority than the other disciples.

Indeed he was - as demonstrated in my previous post. Peter has the Keys of Authority over the Earthly Kingdom, the Church. For just a few minutes, take your head out of the NT and travel back to the OT. In 2 Sam. 7:16; Psalm 89:3-4; 1 and Chron.17:12,14, God promises to establish the Davidic kingdom forever on earth. Matt. 1:1 clearly establishes this tie of David to Jesus. Jesus is the new King of the new House of David, and the King will assign a chief steward to rule over the house while the King is in heaven. We read in Luke 1:32 that the archangel Gabriel announces to Mary that her Son would be given "the throne of His father David." Then, in Matt. 16:19, Jesus gives Peter the "keys of the kingdom of heaven."

A question for you, Bob. Why does the notion that our Lord established a head of the Church bother you so much?

[BipolarBob]

A question for you, Bob. Why does the notion that our Lord established a head of the Church bother you so much?

It bothers me that Christ did not plainly state that there will be ONE person with infallible powers who will head His church. I see nothing that would require this and nothing that plainly states this. What I do see is that a willing and submissive heart is more important than doctrinal infallibility. Instead of practicing obeisance to a man, practice a following of Christs command to preach the gospel and love one another. The contrasts between your pope and the apostles is too great to make an equivalence.

[BipolarBob]

'Hmmmm .... distrust of his fellow disciples? Is that a gut feeling or one you have drawn from a specific passage in Scripture?

The context of the situation. One disciple had committed suicide and another had denied Jesus at a critical time, not once but three times!! And it was foretold him. It would be reasonable to assume Peter had self doubts and felt depression as well as just wanting to give up. But his actions were not unforgivable. And Jesus did forgive him and reinstate him in front of the others.

[NYer]

As far as as tradition and apostolic succession, the Catholic church does not have twelve modern day “apostles”. I would think that would be more traditional than one pope.

Excellent comment :-)! And, a very valid one. Now we are treading on 'organization' and dabbling in the distinctions between the Catholic and Orrthodox Churches. Great question!

Christ conferred upon his apostles the original task of shepherding the earthly Church in his absence. As the Church grew, the apostles themselves appointed different kinds of ministers to assist them.

Among the apostles there were two groups. The first consisted of the Twelve, who witnessed the whole of Christ's earthly ministry from his baptism to his Ascension (Acts 1:21-26). The second group of apostles, including Paul and Barnabas (Acts 14:14), was not bound by this condition. Thus Paul had seen and been commissioned as an apostle by the risen Christ (1 Cor. 9:1, Gal. 1:1), though he had not been a disciple of Jesus during his earthly ministry (Acts 9, 1 Cor. 15:8).

Christ could have continued to appear to individuals and appoint them as apostles throughout the Church age. However, he chose not to do so, and so the apostles passed from the scene.

As the apostles died, the task of shepherding the Church fell by default upon the highest-ranking ministers appointed by them. This group is known today as the bishops, who are the successors of the apostles as the highest shepherds of the earthly Church.

Due to bishops' role as the successors of the apostles, possession of a valid episcopacy is necessary for a church to claim apostolic succession. Apostolic succession thus involves in the bishops serving as successors to the apostles, not serving as apostles. The bishops are not simply a continuation of the office of apostle; they received the governance of the Church when that office ceased.

Though modern bishops succeed the apostles as the highest shepherds of the Church, and though they belong to unbroken lines of ordination going back to the hands of the apostles themselves, the office of bishop is not identical to the office of apostle. If it were, Christ would not have allowed the apostles to disappear from the scene but would have continued to appear to and commission new apostles for the Church.

I would think that would be more traditional than one pope.

One thousand years ago, the Orthodox and Catholic Churches split over this very argument. They viewed the successor of Peter as "first amongst equals". This has now been settled.

Vatican-Orthodox commission agrees on primacy of Pope; differ on significance

Also I do not find the word “pope” in my Bible. This makes any suggestion that such a position is Biblical more than suspect.

In Ecclesiastical Latin, the term papa derives from the Greek papas. The title pope, once used with far greater latitude is at present employed solely to denote the Bishop of Rome, who, in virtue of his position as successor of St. Peter, is the chief pastor of the whole Church, the Vicar of Christ upon earth.

I have addressed all of your questions while only posing one. I would appreciate your response to that before we proceed.

God bless you!

[BipolarBob]

Also in regard to a head of the church, Jesus could have had just ONE disciple but that is not what He had. He had twelve that were to work in unison. If you’ll recall Jesus had rebuked them for having a dispute over which of them was the greatest Mark 9:33-35. There was to be no greatest. There is no need for a head because the Cornerstone of the Church is Jesus Christ and always will be. Is there a dispute in the Trinity of the Godhead who is the greatest? Do they work in harmony toward the same goal and spirit? Could twelve disciples or a hundred disciples do the same if led by The Holy Spirit?

[BipolarBob]

A question for you, Bob. Why does the notion that our Lord established a head of the Church bother you so much?

Jesus called the disciples to Him and they followed Him. Who has called the pope? Who appoints him?

If one were to put two persons of the "same" non-Catholic Christian denomination (i.e., two Presybterians, two Lutherans, two Baptists, etc.) in separate rooms with a Bible and a notepad and ask them to write down their "interpretation" of the Bible, passage for passage, shouldn't they then produce the exact same interpretation?

If the Catholic councils were infallible they would meet and vote for the new pope (by secret ballot) and the votes would be the exact same name the first time 100%. Done and over with in five minutes. With no pre-planning or discussion. Does this happen?

[NYer]

It bothers me that Christ did not plainly state that there will be ONE person with infallible powers who will head His church. I see nothing that would require this and nothing that plainly states this.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "Kepha" and on this "Kepha" I will build my Church.

What's not to understand?

[BipolarBob]

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "Kepha"(pointing to Peter) and on this "Kepha" (Jesus pointing to Himself) I will build my Church.

Peter is mentioned frequently in the Bible. That proves what? He was in trouble a lot. Jesus even calls him Satan. Peter denies his Lord three times. This is not what the church was built on. Jesus was making a pun. God is referred to as a Rock throughout the OT. Psalms 18:31 ,46 examples. Jesus is The Rock. He is unmovable and unshakable and solid. He is the foundation. To call Peter the foundation defies scripture calling Christ the Cornerstone Matthew 21:42. etc . .

[NYer]

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "Kepha"(pointing to Peter) and on this "Kepha" (Jesus pointing to Himself) I will build my Church.

From the grammatical point of view, the phrase "this rock" must relate back to the closest noun. Peter’s profession of faith ("You are the Christ, the Son of the living God") is two verses earlier, while his name, a proper noun, is in the immediately preceding clause.

You are drawing assumptions that are not in Scripture. The verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter:  Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not Himself.

This is not what the church was built on. Jesus was making a pun. God is referred to as a Rock throughout the OT. Psalms 18:31 ,46 examples. Jesus is The Rock. He is unmovable and unshakable and solid. He is the foundation. To call Peter the foundation defies scripture calling Christ the Cornerstone Matthew 21:42. etc . .

Peter’s preeminent position among the apostles was symbolized at the very beginning of his relationship with Christ. At their first meeting, Christ told Simon that his name would thereafter be Peter, which translates as "Rock" (John 1:42). The startling thing was that—aside from the single time that Abraham is called a "rock" (Hebrew: Tsur; Aramaic: Kepha) in Isaiah 51:1-2—in the Old Testament only God was called a rock. The word rock was not used as a proper name in the ancient world. If you were to turn to a companion and say, "From now on your name is Asparagus," people would wonder: Why Asparagus? What is the meaning of it? What does it signify? Indeed, why call Simon the fisherman "Rock"? Christ was not given to meaningless gestures, and neither were the Jews as a whole when it came to names. Giving a new name meant that the status of the person was changed, as when Abram’s name was changed to Abraham (Gen.17:5), Jacob’s to Israel (Gen. 32:28), Eliakim’s to Joakim (2 Kgs. 23:34), or the names of the four Hebrew youths—Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah to Belteshazzar, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (Dan. 1:6-7). But no Jew had ever been called "Rock." The Jews would give other names taken from nature, such as Deborah ("bee," Gen. 35:8), and Rachel ("ewe," Gen. 29:16), but never "Rock." In the New Testament James and John were nicknamed Boanerges, meaning "Sons of Thunder," by Christ, but that was never regularly used in place of their original names, and it certainly was not given as a new name. But in the case of Simon-bar-Jonah, his new name Kephas (Greek: Petros) definitely replaced the old.

This also settles the question of whether the word refers to Christ himself, since he is mentioned within the profession of faith. The fact that he is elsewhere, by a different metaphor, called the cornerstone (Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:4-8) does not disprove that here Peter is the foundation. Christ is naturally the principal and, since he will be returning to heaven, the invisible foundation of the Church that he will establish; but Peter is named by him as the secondary and, because he and his successors will remain on earth, the visible foundation. Peter can be a foundation only because Christ is the cornerstone.

In fact, the New Testament contains five different metaphors for the foundation of the Church (Matt. 16:18, 1 Cor. 3:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:5-6, Rev. 21:14). One cannot take a single metaphor from a single passage and use it to twist the plain meaning of other passages. Rather, one must respect and harmonize the different passages, for the Church can be described as having different foundations since the word foundation can be used in different senses.

Peter is mentioned frequently in the Bible. That proves what? He was in trouble a lot. Jesus even calls him Satan. Peter denies his Lord three times.

As previously commented, immediately before his denials were predicted, Peter was told, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again [after the denials], strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32). It was Peter who Christ prayed would have faith that would not fail and that would be a guide for the others; and his prayer, being perfectly efficacious, was sure to be fulfilled.

Again, let's put this to the test. Before the Canon of Scripture was even compiled - before anyone had a Bible - what did the Early Church Fathers say.

"On him (Peter) He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep, and although He assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet He founded a single chair (cathedra), and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity....  If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith?  If he (should) desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?"
  St. Cyprian Of Carthage ("On the Unity of the Catholic Church," 251 A.D.)

And ....

"In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis (Acts 9:32-34)."  
St. Cyril of Jerusalem ("Catechetical Lectures" c. 350 A.D.)

And again ...

"[Jesus said:] Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on Earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the first-born in my institution so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all my treasures." 
St. Ephraim of Syria ("Homily 4," c. 351 A.D.)

[BipolarBob]

From the grammatical point of view, the phrase "this rock" must relate back to the closest noun.

We are not going by a strictly grammatical view or a strictly literal rules. We agreed that symbolism is an important part, remember? For the scriptures to agree, Jesus must be the Rock the church is founded upon. When we sing "Rock of Ages" (I profess to not know if Catholics sing this), we are not singing about Peter or Joseph Ratzinger but Christ. Matthew 21:42 refers to Jesus as the cornerstone the builders (church leaders) rejected. When Peter or any other person is substituted for Christ, Christ is still being rejected as foretold. This verse is still true today.

[BipolarBob]

Also the books of Cyprian, Cyril, and Ephraim are not in my Bible so quoting them does little for me. Let us contrast Peter (the pebble/rock) against the present day Pope. Acts 3:6 shows an impoverished Peter (gold and silver I have none) compared to the head of the richest church (and maybe private enterprise) on earth. Peter walks from city to city (no Popemobile for him) and meets face to face with common everyday people. He performs a miracle (actually God does) and the lame walks. Does the Pope walk about in such fashion mixing with the hoi polloi and perform like miracles? Why or why not?

[BipolarBob]

From the grammatical point of view, the phrase "this rock" must relate back to the closest noun. Peter’s profession of faith ("You are the Christ, the Son of the living God") is two verses earlier, while his name, a proper noun, is in the immediately preceding clause.

Scholars knowledgeable about ME languages and idioms of this time period should be able to explain better than I (and I am NOT a scholar by any means) why this does not refer to Peter. Allegories, parables and other usages were commonplace at this time to illustrate a point.

[NYer]

In response to your posts 137, 138 and 139, I can only say that you are wrong on so many points. You have donned the blinders and, despite Scriptural references justifying Peter's primacy, including those from his own disciples, you choose to argue on very weak arguments. I never suggested that the writings of the Early Church Fathers were part of your or my Bible and presented them strictly as testimony to the early Church.

I could continue to cite Scriptural proof of God's promises to Peter and why He established a Church with him as its Prime Minister but not with your pre-existing prejudices. You unfairly draw a monetary comparison between Pope Benedict XVI and Peter. This is a sad example that stems from ignorance of the Catholic Church. It is not unique to you but, once again, reflects your established prejudice against Christ's Institution. It reflects poorly on those who formed you in your faith.

Is private interpretation of the Bible condoned in the Bible Itself?  No, it is not (2 Peter 1:20).  Was individual interpretation of Scripture practiced by the early Christians or the Jews?  Again, "NO" (Acts 8:29-35).  The assertion that individuals can correctly interpret Scripture is false. Even the "founder" of Sola Scriptura (Martin Luther), near the end of his life, was afraid that "any milkmaid who could read" would found a new Christian denomination based on his or her "interpretation" of the Bible.  Luther opened a "Pandora's Box" when he insisted that the Bible could be interpreted by individuals and that It is the sole authority of Christianity.  Why do we have over 20,000 different non-Catholic Christian denominations?  The reason is individuals' "different" interpretations of the Bible. Can there be more than one interpretation of the Bible?  No.  The word "truth" is used several times in the New Testament.  However, the plural version of the word "truth" never appears in Scripture.  Therefore, there can only be one Truth.  So how can there be over 20,000 non-Catholic Christian denominations all claiming to have the "Truth".

I have taken the liberty of pinging you to a post on a thread whose topic is of no interest to you. The comment, however, includes an interesting 'extra-biblical' piece of information. It is nothing more than a tidbit or appetizer, with no Scriptural support. It's simply 'interesting'.

It seems your co-Evangelicls neglected to ping you to this thread. The author of this thread, Marcus Grodi, has astutely commented that every so many years, various non-Catholic Christian denominations split and divide. Judging from the comments made by J.P. Moreland, it looks like the Evangelicals are getting ready to divide. Meanwhile, the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ more than 2000 years ago, continues to navigate the murky waters, solid in its faith.

Thank you! I have enjoyed our discussion.