THEOTOKOS
Posted on 12/16/2007 4:05:55 PM PST by NYer
If any human besides Christ the Lord was born without the stain of original sin, then the entirety of Christianity is for nothing. The reason Christ was born the way He was (immaculate) is to preserve His Holiness and proof of His being God. Every human born of this world has original sin imprinted upon us. This oviously includes Mary, the bearer of Christ.
that is simply not true...you can not have the perfect, sinless, God-man, inside the body stained with sin.
just as nothing unclean can enter heaven, nothing that is of heaven can dwell in something unclean.
the living tabernacle of Mary was immaculate, just as the old testament, the arc of the convenant contained the sinless word, and was designed by God and told to the builders how to make it perfect, so was Mary, made perfect, before all time, so that she could be the living arc of the convenant to contain the pure God-man.
so,it is biblical in every sense.
U heard Carl Olson speak recently. Very good.
Yep...This is right up there with walking under ladders, going back home if a black cat crosses your path, etc...It's amazing what they will tell you guys to keep you comin' and payin'...
Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
Looks like you all got it a bit backwards...You've increased Mary over Jesus so much that it appears she is the one you guys worship over God...
You have any pictures of Mary kneeling at the feet of the full grown Jesus??? That'll shock me if you do...
Don't you read the scriptures??? The perfect, sinless God is in every actual Chritian that you ever met, in the form of the Holy Spirit...
NYer, the first part of this article is great. The second part, with that 19th century IC “dogma” is truly unfortunate. I understand tat within the last 50 years or so the Maronites have signed on with that notion, but in the past I understand it was not accepted. I further understand that in Lebanon it isn’t accepted except to the extent that it is necessary to “pay lip service” as one Lebanese fellow put it to me the other day, to the “Magisterium”. True?
“There is absolutely NO Biblical truth in this: ...and “preserved from the stain of original sin” (CCC 508).”
and
“that is simply not true...you can not have the perfect, sinless, God-man, inside the body stained with sin.”
Remarkable how the unfortunate Augustinian innovation of “Original Sin”, a thoroughly non-patristic notion, causes trouble in Western Christianity.
RGF, what vpintheak has posted is thoroughly patristic. The Most Holy Theotokos was completely human, not some goddess, though I will grant you that the “Co Redemptrix” crowd might lead one to believe otherwise. She was born like all the rest of us, burdened with the consequences of the Sin of Adam. She was in need of the Savior just like the rest of us. The Latin innovation of the IC is a necessary result of the Augutinian theology of “Original Sin” which contributed so much to the West’s departure from the patristic theology of The Church.
And vpintheak, as I said, your conclusion is correct, but there is no such thing as “original sin” staining anyone’s soul!
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Isn't it the hope of the elect that they will one day be washed clean of the stain of sin? And don't we profess that that washing is with the blood of Christ shed on the Cross? Is it correct to say that those among humankind who are saved by grace through Faith in Christ are saved in His blood and in that blood finally made unspotted?
Then all we are "adding" to that is that that eschatological effect of the Sacrifice in Christ "came true" in Mary at the moment of her conception. She was not, in other words, by her own inherent nature or act immaculate. She was immaculate by the "application" (so to speak) to her of the saving act of Christ at the moment of her conception. The cross is what made Mary immaculate, we say.
Every human born of this world has original sin imprinted upon us.
Seriously, does that include Adam and Eve?
I really mean that I am to trying to persuade you of this, but rather trying to show PART of how we think of it, in hopes that that will clarify that, as we think of it, the Immaculate conception so far from vitiates Christ's sacrifice that it is, rather, one of the most gracious fruits of it.
Thank you for this. Think I’ll skip most of the comments on this one.
uhmmm, so...how does a sinless Christ come from a sinful mother?
Ave Maria!
Isn’t there something like if it’s Greek, it’s orthodox. Fact is that the Greeks never understood the nature of the conflict between Pelagius and Augustine, heace what Augustine or the Latin Church meant by “Original Sin.” Not understanding the history of the contraversy, the Greeks were fooled by Pelagius and his disciples, whose doctrine is more “Jewish” than many think. At the extreme, it requires no redeemer at all.
The mythology surrounding Mary boggles the mind!
What is your proof of no original sin? I am interested.
Adam and Eve were not born of this world. God created them, first Adam, then Eve from Adam. Sin entered the world, all of humanity since that time has been born into sin except Christ.
You mind can get unboggled if it just separates the popular devotions to Mary from the Church doctrine. Even the former , however, can be instructive. however. As Queen of Angels, she is his messenger to millions, as a symbol ofHis mercy and of His justice.
***uhmmm, so...how does a sinless Christ come from a sinful mother?***
This leads to another question...How does a sinless mother come from sinful grandparents.
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