Posted on 12/30/2007 12:55:54 PM PST by Gamecock
One believer is bitter that the money she donated to several prominent ministries didn't bring about the material blessings the preachers had assured would come.
"I wanted to believe that God wanted to do something great with me like he was doing with them," said Cindy Fleenor, a 53-year-old accountant from Tampa, Fla., according to The Associated Press. "I'm angry and bitter about it. Right now, I don't watch anyone on TV hardly."
Fleenor wrote checks to Benny Hinn and Paula White - two popular televangelists - and pledged $500 a year to Joyce Meyer, another prominent evangelist. But Fleenor has yet to be showered with the riches that the preachers said would come as donors give.
The three preachers preach what critics call the "prosperity gospel," a highly criticized theology that teaches wealth is a sign of God's blessing. They encourage believers to donate and instill hope that they will experience prosperity. While they do not exclusively teach that God's riches mean money in people's wallets, it's still a key part of their sermons.
The "gospel of wealth" is denounced in many Christian circles. Still, many are flocking to the multi-million-dollar churches prosperity preachers have built to hear the positive messages and are faithfully giving in hopes of being blessed.
"More and more people are desperate and grasping at straws and want something that will alleviate their pain or financial crisis," said Michael Palmer, dean of the divinity school at Regent University, according to AP. "It's a growing problem."
Emerging church leader and author Brian McLaren says one of the prosperity teaching's attractions is that it doesn't dwell on traditional Christian themes o heaven and hell but on answering pressing concerns of the here and now, as reported by AP.
Richard Young, author of The Rise of Lakewood Church and Joel Osteen, has said that society today is overstressed and already believes they are living in Hell daily and thus is eager to embrace the messages that prosperity preachers like Osteen deliver.
But the teachings put too much emphasis on individual success and happiness, McLaren said.
"We've pretty much ignored what the Bible says about systemic injustice," he said.
Evangelist Meyer, who has improved her ministry's financial transparency in recent years, recently stressed the need for balance in the teachings.
A prosperity gospel "that solely equates blessing with financial gain is out of balance and could damage a person's walk with God," she said.
Prosperity teachings became prominent, mainly in Pentecostal and charismatic churches, with evangelists Oral Roberts and Kenneth Copeland - then, Kenneth Hagin - in the postwar era.
"What Oral did was develop a theology that made it OK to prosper," said David Edwin Harrell Jr., a Roberts biographer, according to AP. Harrell noted that Roberts and Copeland trained tens of thousands of evangelists with "health and wealth" theology - a message that resonated with an emerging middle class.
Money isn't the only thing people are blessed with, prosperity preachers say. God's blessings extend to health, relationships and being able to help others.
Six prosperity preachers are currently under investigation for allegedly abusing their non-profit status to shield lavish lifestyles. Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) has requested financial statements and responses to questions about personal and organizational finances from ministries led by Paula and Randy White, Creflo Dollar, Eddie Long, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, and Kenneth and Gloria Copeland. The deadline to turn over the papers was Dec. 6.
While Grassley has stressed that the investigation is about whether the ministries are playing by the rules and not about doctrine, some wonder if the probe can strictly keep off theology questions.
"How do you determine how much money a minister like this is able to make when the basic theology is that wealth is OK?" said the Rev. Adam Hamilton, a prosperity gospel critic, of United Methodist Church of the Resurrection in Kansas City, Miss. "That gets into theological questions."
Joyce Meyer is the only one of the six that has promised to fully cooperate with Grassley's probe. Kenneth and Gloria Copeland have turned in papers; lawyers for Randy and Paula White have asked for more time; recent contact has not been made by Benny Hinn who had agreed to respond by Dec. 12 but did not; and Creflo Dollar and Eddie Long have indicated they will not comply with Grassley's probe.
You know full well I am not LDS. I have never been LDS. I have stated that I believe that Mormon theology is a deception from the pit of hell.
So your question seems to be . . . more than a little cheeky for an untrue reason—as has been demonstrated by my strong assertions. It would be different if I’d given reasonably solid grounds for such cheekiness. I have not.
I rebuke such notions in the Name of Jesus The Christ.
In terms of the issue, I realize that your Rubber Bible seems to be missing quite a few verses so perhaps it i missing these, too:
##########
CHEEKY LEE N FIELD QUESTIONS WITHOUT FOUNDATION:
Precorporeal existence? You don’t hail from Utah, do you?
###############
Matthew 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Luke 11:50
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Hebrews 4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
IIRC, there’s another verse or three as clear or clearer
‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,’
Jeremiah 1:5
5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Psalm 139:16 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
###################
An apology would be accepted, if there were one.
Thanks for the ping!
CC&E
"Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you." - Luke 6:38 ESV
"The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. As it is written,
"He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever."
He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness. You will be enriched in every way to be generous in every way, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God. For the ministry of this service is not only supplying the needs of the saints but is also overflowing in many thanksgivings to God. By their approval of this service, they will glorify God because of your submission flowing from your confession of the gospel of Christ, and the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others, while they long for you and pray for you, because of the surpassing grace of God upon you. Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift!" 2 Cor 9: 6-15 ESV
There's a few more in Psalms as well.
One comment about the Malachi passage: It's easy to miss one really amazing thing in the KJV because "prove me now herewith," is not a phrase regularly used in today's English.
When God spoke through His prophet Malachi he of course knew that 400 years hence he would be referencing and thus re-emphasizing "Thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the test" during the temptation of Christ Jesus in the wilderness.
So note the NASB translation of Malachi 3: 8-12
8"Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings.
9"You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!
10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.
11"Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of the ground; nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes," says the LORD of hosts.
12"All the nations will call you blessed, for you shall be a delightful land," says the LORD of hosts."
The NIV reads pretty much the same. Isn't that COOL? I hear the Lord issuing a formal caveat to "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test." More plainly, I hear him saying, "Yes I'm very much aware of what My word says and what My son will yet say about testing me, but THIS IS THE EXCEPTION. I am SO serious about this that I urge you to please HAVE AT IT, make my day, bring it on, and I am really, REALLY not kidding.
The ESV translates it "put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts,"
He knows how fragile our faith is, so the strong emphasis is for the sake of our souls. Isn't that great?
I haven’t heard about Rev. Ike in awhile, but when he was touring full time he was a corker.
He’d have people hold a dollar bill in their hands over their heads with their eyes closed.
he then would have his guys snatch the bills for God.
Ike never fooled the masses. He told ‘em exactly why he was there...for their money.
Wow, that was powerful. Thanks!
Makes me glad I tithe. Makes me want to give more offerings.
Bump post #25.
“Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.” - Luke 6:38 ESV
“The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. As it is written,
“He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever.”
= = =
INDEED. I think your Scriptural points are excellent ones and well made.
God truly delights to bless those
WHO
DELIGHT
IN
HIM!
It seems that few such there be.
God is not impressed with rice Christians.
God evidently does not even count giving that is not joyful giving freely given—no strings attached.
We canNOT put God under OUR script of obligation.
He will NOT conform to OUR design of a Heavenly vending machine . . .
He ALONE puts Himself in obligation to His Word . . . again . . . in His ways and His timing.
But those who deride taking His Word at face value; living it to the best of their current ability and TRUSTING GOD WHOLESALE with the details . . . are treading on thin ice. God is not amused.
HE LOVES TO GIVE GOOD GIFTS TO HIS CHILDREN.
But He is highly unlikely to turn a 2 year old loose in a candy store.
It amazes me that He allows so many rubber Bibles to bounce so erratically hither, thither and yon. But then that just gets back to free will. Oh, that’s right, these Contrarian Preterists don’t even believe in that.
LOL.
Have a blessed week, Dear Heart. Thanks for your encouraging word.
His abundant blessings, safety, provision, guidance, intimate dialogues, faith, hope, joy, Love, fulfillment and all the rest of His best to you and your loved ones in the New Year.
I think the oft stated truism needs adjusting . . .
A person canNOT JOYFULLY, FREELY OUT-GIVE GOD.
I see you’ve used a quote from the Message. The more I see of it, the less I like this “paraphrase”.
What are your opinions?
I’m keenly aware of the foolishness, charlatanism, gullibility etc.
Doesn’t change the validity of Scripture.
Folks have been twisting Scripture to their own uses from before the pharisees. Leaders have been deceiving the people for millenia.
God calls us to a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM
VIA HIS BLOOD AND HOLY SPIRIT . . . THAT’S SUFFICIENT guidance to become discerning by Holy Spirit about who and what is kosher and what’s not in our daily lives; in our Christian walk; in our interpretation of Scripture and certainly that of others.
Will we always hear and interpret 100% correctly? Not yet. Perhaps most will before Jesus returns. I don’t know. But we can sure grow close enough to Him and learn to hear His still small voice well enough to stay out of the major pitfalls and to mostly be obedient day by day.
And, then there’s the chasing afer human confirmation right and left. That’s OK and Biblical TO A POINT.
But there comes a point in many folks Christian walk when God says enough of that—HEAR ME AND ME ONLY.
I’ve done plenty of it, myself.
But at some point, if God’s orders and approval directly are not sufficient . . . nothing is.
Certainly we still need humility even more so and to keep in mind that there’s wisdom in many counselors and that even the wisest amongst us still sees through the glass darkly and that only fractionally.
GOD DESIGNED US AND THIS LIFE TO NEED EACH OTHER. Pretending otherwise is a trap.
Some folks will see contradiction in the above but there isn’t when one is walking close to God.
Your sister probably likes the down home folksyness and warm intimacy that the Southern style sort of infers, injects, fosters etc. But it’s not always as genuine as some make it out to be. Usually it is with most healthy folks. But there can be a lot of put-on with that as with anything.
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” Mat 6:20-21 (ESV)
I was reared on the KJV. I have tons of the KJV mostly committed to memory. I used to use it as a teddy bear in High School and some in College. So I have that in my mind and spirit. It’s a great substrate, background, roundation.
The Message is wonderful to me. I think I often cried the first reading through it. Father God became so much more real to me. The language of Scripture became so much closer to how I’d understood God to be and felt Him to be but the KJV and other translations just obscured.
I’d always felt that Scripture was more earthy—in the comman man vernacular sense. Wasn’t a scholar enough to pontificate about it but it was just a sense I had. I think there are hints of it here and there in other translations but one has to be very discerning to catch them.
Then along comes P:eterson’s great work. I think he does it beautifully. Do I agree with every wording—no. But every wording brings to life the Scripture in a bit of a fuller way that adds to my understanding.
I think the supposed paraphrase/translatio dichotomy is absurd. I think it’s trumped up by pontificating phraisees to rail against those who disagree with them.
1. EVERY TRANSLATION IS A PARAPHRASE.
2. EVERY PARAPHRASE IS A TRANSLATION.
Sure, the degree to which a translation includes paraphrasing is an important issue. But it is IMPOSSIBLE to translate WITHOUT paraphrase.
NO TWO LANGUAGES EVER KNOWN HAVE AN EQUAL VOCABULARY, GRAMMAR, IDIOM ETC. NONE. NADA. MAY YO DONG XI. Therefore, paraphrase MUST be used to ACCURATELY convey the meaning.
Some paraphrased wordings are ESSENTIALLY IDENTICAL to the original in meaning, impact, import, spirituality, specifics etc. Some are mostly so.
I forget the tribal example I’m trying to think about . . . but let’s take PEACE CHILD (Neil Anderson, I think) as an example. That tribe had a hard time understanding the substitutionary death of Christ . . . until it was paraphrased as CHRIST WAS THE PEACE CHILD. The PEACE CHILD was a cultural means of enforcing peace between two often warring tribes. The child of one chief was given to be reared by the chief of the opposing tribe. Peace reigned. The salvation of the tribes from the destruction of war was achieved.
Was the paraphrase of PEACE CHILD identical to Christ’s life and ministry of salvation to uswards 100% in every respect? Of course not.
Nor is the KJV. Nor is the NIV. Nor is Young’s literal. Nor is the AMPLIFIED.
ALLLLLLLL ARE APPROXIMATIONS.
But God’s WORD is sooooooooooo robust that it doesn’t matter ESSENTIALLY.
HOLY SPIRIT CAN STILL LEAD INTO ALL TRUTH EVEN WHEN there’s only a few scraps of torn pages from a Bible spread over several villages in Viet Nam or China or Burma.
Are those few pages the whole Scripture? Of course not.
But the WHOLE HOLY SPIRIT FOLLOWS THEM WHEREVER THEY GO TO PERFORM HIS WORK OF INSURING THAT EVERY WORD DOES NOT RETURN VOID.
He does the same thing with THE MESSAGE, the KJV and all the rest remotely well done translations.
I realize that Petersen himself calls it a paraphrase. I suppose he’s technically right. He ought to know. But I think he clouds the issue. It is both as every other translation is both.
More importantly to me, Holy Spirit used THE MESSAGE to bring me much closer to FATHER GOD. . . . something I was desperate for at the time.
Scripture came much more alive to me even than it had been, which was a lot. I felt much more alongside the New Testament writers in all those incidents and moments.
I felt the beat of Father’s heart and the intent of His Purposes and Priorities much more vividly and keenly.
So, I’m very THANKFUL for THE MESSAGE. But, certainly, I always compare a diversity of translations when I really want to dive into a verse and immerse myself in it’s meanings and potential meanings.
Thanks for the honor of your question.
Might I ask what you find disappointing about THE MESSAGE?
YOU HAVE NOT
BECAUSE
YOU ASK NOT
. . .
and/or ask amiss.
God said it. I didn’t.
I believe HIM.
OF COURSE
Our treasure is to be in Heaven.
However, IF
our focus is ON SEEKING GOD AND HIS KINGDOM FIRST, FOREMOST AND ALWAYS
then God is free to delight in one of His favorite pasttimes—blessing His kids in every way possible.
First of all, I don’t really care what Benny Hinn thinks on the subject. You obviously have a thing about the guy.
The idea that we are supposed to share in Divine Prosperity comes straight out of the Bible, as I showed with a few quotes (which nobody ever bothers to refute. Instead, we get into side issues like this or that evengelist.)
The idea that you have to be persecuted is just plain silly. Maybe it had some truth for Paul in his particular time and place, but as Dr. Ernest Holmes wrote, “Mankind has learned enough from suffering.” You do not have to suffer. You are not supposed to suffer. You’re supposed to inherit the Kingdom and its blessings.
Money is one of those blessings. It is one way that God expresses in our world. Would you refuse the gift?
It’s interesting . . .
The Contrarian Preterist REPLACEMENTARIANS hereon
who supposedly believe that the world is getting better and better . . .
are arguing that we have to suffer to be truly Righteous?
So much for the Blood of Jesus and Jesus paying the full price in suffering???
Actually, to be honest, suffering has been some of the biggest examples of grace and spiritual growth in my life.
On the other hand, I believe God would have rather taught me as we walked along the road together and avoided the suffering in my life.
Jesus said, “Of myself I do nothing.” It is when we try to do things without God that we suffer. While there may be good lessons in it, there are better, less painful ways to get the lessons.
“Ask and you shall receive. Seek and you shall find. Knock, and the door shall be opened.”
Another prosperity teaching. Obviously unbiblical.
Very interesting point you raise, Quix.
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