All Roads Lead To Rome (A Southern Baptist's Journey into the Catholic Church)

Confiteordeo ^ | John David Young

[Quix]

Thanks for your encouragements, Dear Sister in Christ.

[Quix]

Actually,

the way “Christians” rant and rave about petty chaff

DISTINCTIVES of their RELIGIOUS CLUB

I suspect God is thoroughly disgusted with CLUB BRAND names on church doors and church yards.

His Son didn’t die for ego-driven pettiness.

Some differences are substantial and deserve their distinctive treatments . . .

But so many are just noise, chaff . . . originated in political ego driven conflicts and perpetuated in much the same or a similar spirit, imho.

To think God has any respect for such over his 2 HIGH PRIORITY COMMANDMENTS . . . is, imho, delusional.

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed, if we don't get the Great Commandment right - nothing else will matter, as the Church of Ephesus discovered:

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. – Revelation 2:1-5

To God be the glory!

[Quix]

INDEED. AMEN! AMEN!

[lastchance]

My explanation is that they are given a special grace by Christ to do so.

[Tax-chick]

Excellent points :-).

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind words. I hope you got some good rest!

Have a blessed Wed.

[Uncle Chip]

I notice that you place all the burden on Fundamentalist Protestants. Have you ever considered that it is possible for a Catholic or a mormon to be a bigot? Or is this that "poor little minority vs. the masses of illiterate hayseeds" thing again?

Good Post and Well Said --

[Tax-chick]

I hope you got some good rest!

Not as much as I should have. I dreamed about some people I haven't seen in over 15 years, and spent some time praying for them.

I appreciate what you said about being passionate and dramatic, and how that's not the same as being angry or hostile. It can be so easy to misunderstand, particularly in this text-only medium.

I hope you have a terrific day!

[alpha-8-25-02]

GOOD MORNING SAINT,

THANKYOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS,MY LOCAL MINISTRY SCHEDULE DOES NOT ALLOW FOR DISCUSSION ON THREADS AND I AM OFTEN AT REST EARLY AND RISE EARLY SINCE MY PROFITABLE STUDY TIME IS MORNING BEFORE THE DAILY MEETING AND TEACHING SCHEDULE.

“I see now that Toplady was a contemporary of Wesley, so that might explain the passion. After all, Charles Wesley at the time was spouting “Calvin was the first born son of the devil”. I’m sure they all have time to reflect on this now in God’s presence where no doubt Wesley is being schooled by Whitfield, Calvin, Augustine and the Apostle Paul. ;-)”

SMILES HERE ALSO.

5 SOLAS!

[wagglebee]

No one know when Jesus is coming back or when THE Antichrist spoken of in Revelation will come to power. (This is another subject on which I AM NOT equipped to debate on. Perhaps Dr. E could help here.)But there are antichrists with us all ways...IMO!

Aside from repeating anti-Catholic bigotry, what are you equipped to debate on. You have made statements throughout this thread that none but the most ignorant agree with, yet you have provided no factual support for any of it.

Here's some scripture that you may want to ponder (and I will even use KJV so as to not offend you):
15: And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
-- 2 Peter 3:15-16

[Quix]

Thanks tons for your kind words and elaboration. I was curious.

Praying for loved ones I haven’t seen in a while is a common early hour activity of mine, too. No matter the degree of contact—or reasons for no contact, I don’t quit caring for folks I’ve been close to at one time in my life.

In terms of sleep—I often pray for extended times in the early hours.

Also, when it is clear that I should sleep, I have learned to “take each thought captive” as Scripture says . . . and force myself to think of something complex enough to be somewhat interesting but not interesting or exciting enough to wind the adrenaline up.

For me . . . that tends to be hobby type stuff . . . in my mind: landscaping an aquarium; a garden; designing a house floor plan; pottery designs; some such.

I think that satan and his goons particularly like to rob sleep from saints. But Scripture says God gives rest and sleep to His kids. Sometimes we have to take each thought captive to effect it.

And, as I tell my students . . . worrying about not sleeping dumps adrenaline in the bloodstream and keeps one awake. After 15 min—read a moderately dull book; pray; FREEP or whatever until one is sleepy.

Thankfully, most of my adult life I’ve had work that enabled me to sleep when I was sleepy and do whatever other times. I generally sleep in 1-3 chunks of time.

Anyway—this pontification on sleep was brought to you through the courtesy of caring about my dear Sis: Tax-chick.

It was NOT due to diarrhea of the fingers!

Ahywho—do have a blessed week.

LUB,
BLPH,

[Tax-chick]

I’ve spent many years sitting up with babies and learned to appreciate the time for prayer. And if I dream about people, I assume it’s for a reason, especially if I haven’t thought about them in living memory.

Your post has me thinking about gardening, now :-), but it’s too cold today. It will probably be another month before I can get my boys to digging things up!

[wagglebee]

If you want to destroy conservatism as an effective political force, drive wedges in it. Drive wedges between Mormon conservatives and everyone else, and tell the Mormons, "Keep out -- you're not wanted here". Drive wedges between Catholic conservatives and everyone else, and tell the Catholics, "Keep out -- you're not wanted here". Drive as many other wedges as you can think of to drive.

And there is a certain truth that some conservatives Protestants refuse to acknowledge and that is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to elect conservatives on a national level without Catholic support. Catholics make-up just under a quarter of the voters, drive Catholics away with bigotry and you will lose.

[Uncle Chip]

If you want to know why I voted for Mitt Romney and not Mike Huckabee, you have your answer. I can name 5 or 6 FReepers who alone convinced me to have nothing to do with Huckabee before ever looking at a single one of his positions. Every one of the 5 or 6 is a vehemently anti-Catholic Protestant.

This just shows how shallow your "conservatism" really is --

[NYer]

The prayer in Greek tradition:

Not only beautiful but most impressive! Where did you learn that?

[Mad Dawg]

First my comments, FWTW:

From a Baptist viewpoint, being baptized is only a symbol, and nothing more. In other words, for a Baptist, baptism isn't really necessary for salvation.

Wince! I'd like this brother to understand the difference between "ordinary" necessity and what you might call "absolute" necessity.

I am intrigued about the requirement of Baptism before Eucharist. There are plenty of Protestants around here (Central Virginia) for whom "the Lord's Supper" is no big deal and anyone can partake, baptized or not.

I quit harassing the Catholics so much and tried to see them as fellow Christians rather than "the enemy."

I wonder if the reason that doesn't happen much on FR is that people fear that if they do that, pretty soon they'll be "kissing the Pope's toe".

"So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. (John 4:46, KJV)"

Grape juice? When I first came to Virginia the only work I could get was stoop labor in a Vineyard. (I still hurt from it - and I seriously think that the fungicide we sprayed has compromised my health a little.) I did get to see where our grapes were crushed. It was pretty revolting. It's a big operation to refine Welches off of squeezed grapes, and then if you don't pasteurize it it'll start "cooking" from wild yeasts pretty soon anyway. Still "new wine" it is. Jesus never drank fermented wine, we all know that. And I am the Queen of Romania.

I started dating a younger Catholic girl who lived in the Dallas area.

Catholic girls! Our secret weapon!

To Oliver Optic

I was reading the Hahn's book, "Rome Sweet Home," and the question occurred to me ... how do Catholics explain Mary and the saints being able to hear and respond to thousands of prayers at one time?

Obviously the answer is: GREAT secretarial staff!while I have concerns about the sort of practical "omniscience" ..., it ain't OMNIscience, it's LOTSiscience. (Free neologism, no extra charge.)

Then, we think that heaven and those in it are not bound by time. Not only is a thousand years like a moment, but a moment is like a thousand years. AND prayers, even to saints, are, what shall we say, "conveyed" by the Holy Spirit by whom we are all made one body in Christ.

To Papertyger

Another case of STS.

Yep. Log that puppy.

Oh, oh! thread's getting ugly, I'm outta here.

[Quix]

I appreciate what you said about being passionate and dramatic, and how that’s not the same as being angry or hostile. It can be so easy to misunderstand, particularly in this text-only medium.

= = =

Thanks tons.

I don’t think there’s a solution for that one that I’ve come up with.

Even face to face, one can’t please everyone. But, at least face to face, there’s a lot more communication occurring along nonverbal channels.

Amazingly, though, ALMOST the same percentages (I’d guesstimate within 5-20%) of folks discern my heart online as do in person.

I’m reminded of my 2 weeks in Israel . . . natives—especially Arabs but also Jews—would tend to stand talking, faces literally about 1-3 or so inches apart—YELLING AT EACH OTHER as though one was going to slit the other’s throat. And they were just mildly discussing the weather, from their standpoint.

ASSUMPTIONS and CONTEXT are such big issues in communications.

It also seems to be very human to state things ABSOLUTELY, EMPHATICALLY. “You do . . . .” “I KNOW . . . “ “You mean . . . “ etc.

when we largely to totally ASSUME, INFER, EXTRAPOLATE, CONJECTURE . . . .

I don’t always succeed, but I try to own opinions, assumptions, etc. vs things I really do emphatically experientially know.

LIFE REALLY IS COMPLEX. Scripture is even fairly complex . . . though the essentials of the 2 most important commandments are rather simply and clearly stated.

Living those commandments out day by day can be more complex—sometimes increidbly complex in terms of loving people.

Scripture HINTS at a LOT of things. Even many of the clear emphatic statements in Scripture can have 2-3 valid meanings—layers of meanings.

Humility about assumptions even about Scripture is in order.

Assuming that we know emphatically and exhaustively someone else’s heart attitude or even their seemingly evident thinking is often HTTM—HAZARDOUS TO THE MAX—for all concerned.

I think it’s one thing to infer from behavior a given motive or focus or attitude or value . . . and own that as an inference or probability or what things appear to be as.

It’s a different thing to EMPHATICALLY PONTIFICATE in a haughty critical judgment attitude some tidy boxed pigeon holed label that presumes to wrap another complex person and their perspective up in a neat 100% accurate little package. NOT likely to be very valid at all—in at least some respects. Humility about that sort of temptation is wise.

Then there’s that old truism we were often taught in grade school . . . the taunts of even bullies and meanies need have no impact at all. It’s their problem. Yet, we tended to get most upset when there was too much of an element of truth to their taunts.

Humans are so funny. It doesn’t even take a bully to pull the curtain back. Just common human communication misunderstandings—especially with any or too much assuming—can do it.

Like the old Dr Murray Banks joke . . . Woman at the races turns to the man on her right—Excuse me do you have a safety-pin? No, sorry. She turns to the man on her left—Excuse me do you have a safety-pin? No, sorry. Suddenly over the loud speaker—she hears THEY’RE OFF. And she fainted.

What’s said may be a hundred miles different than what’s heard—for very innocent reasons. Add in human flaws and the reasons get flakey and complicated fast.

Add in insecurities, hurts, brittleness, related chips on shoulders and many of us are ready to go to war too easily at the drop of a hat.

Our era is sooooo engulfed in stressed out sources of concerning info . . . folks tend to be chronically wound up . . . usually out of fears and insecurities—not truly trusting God . . .

and/or alternately by turns . . .

tune out into a kind of zombied, passive, wimped out state and attitude.

Too often, that can be too much in the camp of the LUKE-WARM. Though luke-warmness can also come from tuning out insecurities, fears and pains from early traumas.

Then, if someone jangles or removes even a chunk of our thickly padded insulation of passivity or wimpishness or obsessive addiction to ANY ‘teddy bear’ but God Almighty . . . we can become instantly hurt, outraged, indignent, resentful, hostile.

I think such trigger experiences COULD and are probably designed to surface inseurities and stuff which we need to take to The Cross; leave on the altar in Heaven . . . God wanting us to TRUST HIM IN AND ABOUT ALL THINGS.

But many of us are still full of so many childhood insecuriies, it’s difficult for us to look to God first and foremost and trust HIM with whatever has assaulted our sensitivities . . . and then OUT OF THAT TRUSTING GOD—to seek Him for how He would like us to respond. Instead, we REACT. Then the other person REACTS . . . and the disonant reverberations escalate.

And it’s all just information.

We climb the walls, throw out fangs and claws just over information.

The information is likely at least biased. It’s likely not 100% true. It’s likely naturally distorted and may be partially deliberately distorted.

Yet we feel compelled to get irate, climb the wall and retaliate over mere information.

Feelings are mere information. Information may be important. We may need to make decisions and take action based on the information. But it’s just information.

We have the God-given CAPACITY—if we are the least bit healthy and the least bit mature—to hold the information out at arm’s length FIRST—pray about our responses—FIRST and then RESPOND vs react.

I don’t always manage that either. But I’m a lot better at it than I was even 10-20 years ago—whether it shows sufficiently for some sensibilties hereon! LOL.

Then there are those like my mother—who seem to get all their exercise jumping to conclusions—absolutely convinced that they are then 100% correct regardless of the evidence. LOL.

PASSION focused on God’s priorities with hearts of caring for others . . . however imperfect and however imperfectly expressed . . . is a LOT better than luke warm.

So, I think even hostile responses to me are comforting signs that at least the other person is alive and has some priorities in life beyond that of breathing and taking up space.

Goodness . . . what a long pontificating narrative. I’d best hush. Enough info for this post!

LUB

[Quix]

If you have a big south window—get those heirloom tomatoe seeds planted! LOL

I need to do that. So many tasks. Wheee.

Your dad looks like a fairly intense fellow. Was that true/is that true?

My impression looking at his pic is that he has/had a big heart of love, sensitivity and compassion but often kept it hidden behind a brusque exterior. I don’t know if that’s correct or not . . . just my impression looking at his face.

. . . that he’d do most anything for those he loved . . . but might not always be considered a warm teddy bear in ALL his communications.

Anyway—I should go back and get my 2nd chunk of sleep.

Blessings. Thanks for the ‘chat.’