Posted on 10/30/2008 1:09:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
According to the Handbook for Today's Catholic, page 47, "If you die in the love of God but possess any stains of sin, such stains are cleansed away in a purifying process called purgatory. These stains of sin are primarily the temporal punishment due to venial or mortal sins already forgiven but for which sufficient penance was not done during your lifetime."
The Catholic Catechism, paragraph 1030, says that purgatory is for "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
Among the many doctrines that Catholicism claims to be derived through Sacred Tradition, purgatory is one of the most interesting and puzzling, particularly to a Protestant. In light of the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith, how is it possible that an afterlife cleansing through punishment is necessary for a Christian who has trusted in Jesus to cleanse him from all His sins? Wasn't Jesus' punishment for our transgressions sufficient? Didn't He take our place in that He suffered our death? It would seem that the words of Christ, "It is finished," (John 19:30) do not mean that the cleansing of our souls was completed on the cross.
Of course, Roman Catholic doctrine states that eternal life is bestowed upon the one who receives baptism (Catechism, par. 1265 - 1266, 1992). It is the stains of the sins committed after baptism and not removed through penance, good works, prayers, the Mass, etc., that are removed in the fires of purgatory (Handbook for Today's Catholic, page 47).
In light of the doctrine of justification by faith (Rom. 5:1; Rom. 4:5; Rom. 9:30; Acts 13:39; Gal. 2:16), where Jesus bore all of our sins, purgatory would seem to have no theologically justifiable right to exist. But the Bible alone is not appealed to by Catholic theologians in support of Purgatory. By far, the main support for Purgatory is found in the Catholic doctrine of Sacred Tradition. Nevertheless, what does the Bible say about justification, punishment, and our sins?
To justify means acquit, declare righteous, the opposite of condemn. It means to not be guilty of breaking the Law and to be deemed as righteous by the standard of the Law.
God gave the Law, i.e, the 10 commandments. The Law is a reflection of Gods character and it is a perfect standard of righteousness which no one can keep. Since no one is able to keep Gods Law, no one can be justified by the Law (Rom. 3:20). There is, therefore, none righteous (Rom. 3:10-12). This is the problem of all people. We have all broken Gods Law and are in need of justification, of being declared righteous in Gods sight. This can only be done through the Messiah, our sin bearer.
Jesus is the one who took our place on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), became sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21), and turned away the wrath of God from us (Rom. 5:9) by being a propitiation (1 John 2:2) that turned away the wrath of God. He was punished in our place. Therefore, Jesus was our substitution. The righteous work of Christ is imputed to the believer by grace (Titus 3:7) and through faith (Rom. 5:1). This justification is a legal action on the part of God reckoning the believer as having satisfied the Law all of the Law.
It necessarily follows that to be justified in Gods eyes, is to be fully justified. It is not part of the Law that must be satisfied, but all of it. Perfection is the standard. Likewise, it is not part of our sins that were born by Christ, but all of them. This justification includes all of the sins of the believer (past, present, and future) or else we could not be justified.
The Catholic Catechism (paragraphs 1990-1992) says, "Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon Gods merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals"...."Justification is at the same time the acceptance of Gods righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ..." and "...justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy."
Of particular interest is the reference that "justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith." There are many verses in the Bible that deal with baptism and putting on Christ (Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:1-11). This paper is not intended to discuss the nature of baptism. Nevertheless, I strongly affirm that baptism is a covenant sign for the believer who is already justified by faith and for the children of believers who are under the covenant headship of the family. Baptism is not what justifies a person. Rather,
Jesus said, "It is finished," (John 19:30)
Jesus bore our sins in His body, paid the penalty for them, and died. He said, "It is finished." In Greek, the phrase, "It is finished" is one word, tetelestai. In ancient Greek papyri texts that were receipts for taxes, when a debt was paid in full, the word tetelestai, was written on the document. This meant that the debt had been paid in full. In other words, Jesus had finished the work of atonement. But not only atonement (to make amends, to make right), but also of propitiation (turning away Gods wrath). He had fully paid the debt invoked by the sinner. There was nothing more to be done... It was finished.
Yet, the doctrine of Purgatory, in effect, is saying that we must suffer in purgatory for sins not covered by baptism and not covered by the cross. It is to say that the work of Christ is not finished and that there are things we must do to complete the sacrificial, cleansing work of Christ. This amounts to earning heaven by our good works, albeit, a work of suffering. Additionally, the doctrine of Purgatory implies that a person must atone for his own sins. It implies that the person must do more than what the Law of God requires of him. This is called supererogation.
When Jesus said, "It is finished," all that was necessary in the atonement was concluded and all in Christ were justified. We cannot complete or add to Christ's work through our suffering. Purgatory is not only unnecessary, but it contradicts Gods word.
I know you meant that rather tongue in cheek, but that is rather an interesting statement. Wouldn’t purgatory be a sign of degrees in the salvation process? Isn’t it in some indirect way limited atonement. Hmmmm.....
No no no, you need to find the part of the definition YOU don’t understand.
I understand it fine. It simply does not mean what you claim it does.
Good point!! And on the face of it, it looks good! —Sincerely!
“The authors started preaching”. (Later things were committed to writing, that is undeniable!).
Mk:16:15: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and (preach) the gospel to every creature. (KJV)
Can you show me where our Lord commanded them to write anything?
If so, did He command them to write EVERYTHING they had learned from Him? —I can assure you that you won’t be able to.
Actually we have proof that many things were not committed to writing:
—
Jn:20:30: And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: (KJV)
Jn:21:25: And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. (KJV)
—
Therefore, your point that the traditions were later also committed to writing has no historical basis. Indeed the opposite is true: The evidence shows that the apostles were aware that there were two distinct types of transmission of Divine truth: The one oral and the other written:
2Thes:3:6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition(oral) which he received of us. (KJV)
2Tm:3:15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures(written), which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (KJV)
2Tm:3:16: All scripture(written) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (KJV)
2Thes:2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the (traditions) which ye have been taught, whether by word(oral), or our epistle(written). (KJV)
1Pt:1:25: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached(oral) unto you. (KJV)
3Jn:1:9: I (wrote) unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. (KJV)
2Tm:1:13: Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard(oral) of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. (KJV)
2Tm:2:2: And the things that thou hast heard(oral) of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. (KJV)
Rom:15:4: For whatsoever things were (written) aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. (KJV)
1Jn:2:24: Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard(oral) from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. (KJV)
Gonzo
And although Jesus did many other signs,
Jn:20:30: And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
it wouldn't have helped us even if they had been written about...The signs were for unbelieving Jews...
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
After Paul was commissioned to be the apostle to the Gentiles, the signs (to the unsaved Jews) disappeared...
We already know that everything we need to know for our salvation is written in the scriptures and is confirmed by at least two witnesses...
It is not uncommon at all for many preachers to preach from memory, without notes or the scripture in front of them...You don't have to prove that people learned from oral teaching as well as written teaching...We all know that...
You guys keep posting the talking points which include little bits of scripture put out by your church...It's like soundbites from an Obama commercial...
You need to get into the bible and read and learn what this stuff is all about...
Don’t you understand, Gonzo? You need to get into the Bible and read and learn the personal interpretation of Scripture espoused by whichever anti-Catholic bigot is haranguing against the Catholic Church at the moment.
Later on, you need to get into the Bible and read and learn the personal interpretation of Scripture espoused by the next anti-Catholic bigot to come along.
And so on and so forth...
Yeah, sure.
God said He would preserve His words forever...And He did...
You guys claim that God preserved some of His words in your church by your Magisterium, outside of the scripture...But clearly, nothing that has been written by your church outside of the scriptures will add a single thing that contributes to the salvation of the lost...
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Everything we need to know for our salvation is revealed in the written word of God, the scriptures...
Thankyou for your contribution to the discussion...
You made an unproven (and unprovable) claim. I needed only two words to point that out.
Could you show me the text or texts to back that up?
While the Apostles were preaching without the Gospels they had to have been lacking in “everything” they needed to know for their salvation.
Just what were they teaching?
Ho hum. The ye ol’ Catholic argument...”No, no, no. You have it all wrong but we’re not going to explain it to you.”
I’ve heard this many times before.
I have no doubt you are often told how wrong you have it.
Yes, even when I recite the Catholic encyclopedia to Catholics they state I have it wrong. Catholicism has to be the most fluid religion in the world-except for Catholics’ position on Mary and the Eucharist.
It is not the recitation from the encyclopedia which is wrong, but your misinterpretation and/or misapplication of the words. The fluidity you mention is not Catholicism, but the misrepresentations of Catholicism by those who hate it.
I wish you would provide an interpret to the definition that I've provided-which you've failed to do. It might prove a more substantive discussion.
Everyone in purgatory is saved.
Not the issue? LOL
The title question is “Does Purgatory Deny the Sufficiency of Christ’s Sacrifice?”
The answer is no. Everyone in purgatory is saved.
Hmmmm...trying to get you to explain the Catholic encyclopedia is like trying Obama to explain his 95% tax cut. Both are futile.
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