Posted on 11/01/2008 4:04:39 PM PDT by NYer
If you think about it, the notion that any one of us is worthy to enter heaven immediately upon death is not only presumptious, it is sheer arrogance.
Just picked up a western the other day by Johnstone that’s titled “Purgatory.”
Honest.
It’s not terribly relevant to this topic, but the town’s name was Purgatory, and it was a trial just to be there.
FWIW
Prove it with scriptures from the bible.
It’s my understanding no one is worthy. We are only able to enter heaven because we’ve accepted Jesus’ sacrifice.
God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21).
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; (yet so as by fire).
1Cor 3:13-15
16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus(Who is dead); for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
18 The Lord grant unto him that he (may) find mercy of the Lord (in that day): and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well. 2Tim 1:16-18
Note: He may not have found mercy(heaven)yet.
Prove what? Purgatory? The term "purgatory" is not found in the Bible; but neither are other such important Christian beliefs such as "Trinity" and "Incarnation." Do you accept those beliefs?
2 Mc 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
1 Peter Chapter 3:
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
"I believe in Purgatory.
"Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on the 'Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory' as that Romish doctrine had then become.....
"The right view returns magnificently in Newman's DREAM. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer 'With its darkness to affront that light'. Religion has claimed Purgatory.
"Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'
"I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.
"My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am 'coming round',' a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."
- C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer
Purgatory makes the death of Christ moot. He either paid for our sins with his blood or he didn’t. It is presumptuous to assume that our own efforts in purgatory give us “street cred” for heaven. God will give us incorruptible bodies that have no capacity for sin. God, full of love and grace, accomplishes this for us. There is nothing we can do that can ever repay Christ for the ultimate sacrifice made for us.
Yet, the doctrine of purgatory is touted as the great equalizer, that makes us worthy for heaven and there-fore we are released from the debt of sin by our own sufferings. Well shoot, why should Christ had died at all?
I wrote out three envelopes for everyone I could think of for All Souls Masses and at my age, that’s a lot of people. I think we had about 60 names in all.
Since we don’t know, and will not make the judgment of who gets where, we included some pretty dicey friends along with one truly great saint.
I just love All Saints, and All Souls Days.
Do you accept those beliefs?
I certainly hope you are not holding your breath waiting for a response to your question.
“The term “purgatory” is not found in the Bible; but neither are other such important Christian beliefs such as “Trinity” and “Incarnation.” Do you accept those beliefs?”
The idea of purgatory is wiped away with the death and resurrection of Christ. The Bible is replete, however, with the ideals of the Trinity and the incarnation.
Check out some of these threads. The Scripture is included in them.
Beginning Catholic: Catholic Purgatory: What Does It Mean? [Ecumenical]
Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]
PURIFYING THE SOUL ON EARTH IS WORTH 100X WHAT IT TAKES AFTER [Catholic Caucus]
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory
The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Required for entrance to Purgatory? Personal question for Cathloic Freepers.
(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory
Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?
Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?
Purgatory, Indulgences, and the Work of Jesus Christ (Discussion)
Prayer to Release the Souls of Purgatory
Great post! Thanks!
Really good post.
Freegards
You wrote:
“Purgatory makes the death of Christ moot.”
Incorrect. Christ is the One Who makes Purgatory possible. Without Him there would be no Purgatory and no salvation.
“He either paid for our sins with his blood or he didn’t.”
He did, but cleansing has to be applied. As long as that cleansing is done through Christ’s grace - and in Purgatory it is - what’s the problem?
“It is presumptuous to assume that our own efforts in purgatory give us “street cred” for heaven.”
So don’t presume it. We don’t. You don’t even really know what Purgatory is do you? You apparently believe a caricature of it if you believe it has anything to do with our own efforts.
“God will give us incorruptible bodies that have no capacity for sin.”
After the Resurrection - which hasn’t happened yet and may not happen until many centuries after you’re dead.
“God, full of love and grace, accomplishes this for us. There is nothing we can do that can ever repay Christ for the ultimate sacrifice made for us.”
True. And that’s why we know Purgatory is powered by Christ and that it has nothing to do with coming from us.
“Yet, the doctrine of purgatory is touted as the great equalizer, that makes us worthy for heaven and there-fore we are released from the debt of sin by our own sufferings.”
Completely wrong. Again, you clearly have no idea of what the “doctrine of Purgatory” is. It is not touted by any Catholic as making us worthy for heaven on its own or on our own because of our suffering. 1) We are already released from the debt of sin here on earth through Christ, 2) Purgatory doesn’t equalize anyone with anyone. Some saints will be greater than others simply because they were more devoted to Christ in this life and therefore had a greater capacity for His grace. All will be completely filled with His grace (so to speak), but some will have a greater capacity than others. 3) Christ’s grace makes us worthy for heaven and NOTHING ELSE. We just receive some of its cleansing power in Purgatory if we need it. 4) we can do nothing for ourselves in Purgatory. We are completely dependent - as always - on the mercy of God and His grace.
“Well shoot, why should Christ had died at all?”
Unbelievable. Christ wanted to redeem us in the greatest way possible so that we would not only be saved from sin, but would also be able to become more like Him. For those who need it, Purgatory, because of Christ’s grace, helps make that happen.
It would really help if you knew what you were talking about.
Hardly. In 1 Cor. 15:29-30, Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Similarly, in 2 Tim. 1:16-18, Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. So, where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
We especially see this in Rev. 21:27 which says that nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven.
It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
See the previous post #19.
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