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If You Are Contracepting, You Are Part of A Very Big Problem
Madrid Blogspot ^ | January 27, 2009 | Patrick Madrid

Posted on 01/27/2009 11:06:53 AM PST by NYer

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To: dfwgator

Not quite sure I get where you’re going. It’s hard to read the family tree, but it looks like Clevon had eleven kids by four wives and Clevon Junior has four kids by four wives. I take it Clevon hasn’t found a job yet. Is that Clevon Junior next to him or the doctor that delivered some of the kids?


101 posted on 01/27/2009 5:44:41 PM PST by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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To: bronxboy
If You Are Contracepting, You Are Part of A Very Big Problem

Vatican and Italian government criticize sale of RU 486 in Italy
New Condom Ads Target Catholics, Latinos
St. Padre Pio, Humanae Vitae, and Mandatory Abortion
Responsible Parenthood in a Birth Control Culture, Part Two [Open]
Responsible Parenthood in a Birth Control Culture, Part One [Open]

Humanae Vitae and True Sexual Freedom — Part 6 of 6 [Open]
Contraception v. Natural Family Planning — Part 5 of 6 [Open]
Sex Speaks: True and False Prophets — Part 4 of 6 [Open]
Contraception and the Language of the Body — Part 3 of 6 [Open]
Does Contraception Foster Love? — Part 2 of 6 [Open]
Contraception and Cultural Chaos — Part 1 of 6 [Open]


Priests still suffering from effects of Humanae Vitae dissenters, Vatican cardinal says (Must read!)
"Provoking reflection" (Contrasting views on Humanae Vitae)
Humanae Vitae The Year of the Peirasmòs - 1968
Catholics to Pope: Lift the Birth Control Ban

[OPEN] The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Catholic Clergy Challenge Colleagues to Reacquaint Themselves and Their People with Humanae Vitae
White House proposes wide "conscience clause" on abortion, contraception
THE EX CATHEDRA STATUS OF THE ENCYCLICAL "HUMANAE VITAE" [Catholic Caucus]
“A degrading poison that withers life”
Australia Study: 70 Percent of Women Seeking Abortions Used Contraception

[Fr. Thomas Euteneuer] In Persona Christi: The Priest and Contraception

A Challenging Truth, Part Two: The Day the Birth Control Died
A Challenging Truth, Part One: How Birth Control Works
Ten Challenges for the Pro-Life Movement in 2008
The concept of the "intrinsically evil"
Pope Tells Pharmacists Not to Dispense Drugs With 'Immoral Purposes'

Massive Study Finds the Pill Significantly Increases Cancer Risk if Used more than Eight Years
Birth Control Pill Creates Blood Clot Causing Death of Irish Woman
Seminarians Bring Church’s Teaching on Contraception, Sexuality to YouTube
Abortion and Contraception: Old Lies
History of Catholic teaching on Contraception

Pope: Legislation "Supporting Contraception and Abortion is Threatening the Future of Peoples"
Contraception: Why It's Wrong
On Fox News Fearless HLI Priest Takes on Sean Hannity (may be indebted for saving his soul)
VIDEO - SEAN HANNITY vs REV. THOMAS EUTENEUER (must see!)
The Early Church Fathers on Contraception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

Pope on divine love vs. erotic love
Conjugal Love and Procreation: God's Design
Being fruitful [Evangelicals and contraception]

102 posted on 01/27/2009 5:51:25 PM PST by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: bronxville

Absolutely! This happened to someone I know. They (docs) sold it as palliative care, but that was not true. It was euthanasia. Scary! V’s wife.


103 posted on 01/28/2009 4:19:14 AM PST by ventana
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To: ventana

Sorry to hear it ventana. They use fancy names - another one is Compassionate Care. Kinda like the commies who became marxists, progressives etc. They’re slick. The name of the Eugenics Society has also changed over the years. We need to watch these murderers very closely and share our experiences with the public.


104 posted on 01/28/2009 7:22:49 AM PST by bronxville
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To: cowtowney

Beg to differ. I’m simply trying to avoid debt and make responsible choices.


105 posted on 01/28/2009 8:35:19 AM PST by Niuhuru (Fine, here's my gun, but let me give you the bullets first. I'll send them to you through the barrel)
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To: Citizen Blade
On this issue, people didn't need much convincing. The rise of effective and cheap birth control, coupled with the overturning of the laws that banned contraception, was more than enough to make tens of millions of Americans go out and control their fertility.

"Control their fertility?" That's funny way to put it. More like, "Voluntarily sterilize themselves so they can more easily behave like sexual animals."
106 posted on 01/28/2009 9:14:40 AM PST by Antoninus (America didn't turn away from conservatism, they turned away from many who faked it. - Mark Sanford)
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To: Antoninus
"Control their fertility?" That's funny way to put it.

It's accurate, whether you like it or not.

more like, "Voluntarily sterilize themselves so they can more easily behave like sexual animals."

Pointlessly hyperbolic rhetoric doesn't help you make your point.

An unmarried woman who wants to have sex with her boyfriend without the fear of getting pregnant isn't acting like some "sexual animal." She's making a rational life choice to put off child-bearing until she is ready. If your assumption is that everyone who uses contraception is promiscuous, you are incorrect.

107 posted on 01/28/2009 9:25:11 AM PST by Citizen Blade ("A Conservative Government is an organized hypocrisy" -Benjamin Disraeli)
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To: Jack of all Trades
We haven’t paid into anything.

You haven't paid into social security? Well, I sure have. A huge chunk is taken out of every paycheck I've received since I started working.

108 posted on 01/28/2009 9:39:13 AM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: cowtowney

Whenever these issues are discussed, I’m a bit dismayed by the apparent class envy simmering just below the surface. Your comment about beemers and college tuition trumping having children seems an example of that.

We freepers like folks with money when they are viewed through the job creation lens. But when we look at their private lives, with things being more important than kids, we turn on those very same people.

My profile: 3 kids, more house than I need, but not more than I can afford. Strong desire for each of the kids to leave college debt free (2 down 1 to go). Could I have afforded more kids? Sure. But I am not ashamed at all to say that I like having a couple of extra nickles to rub together, and that having more kids would have had an impact on my ability to rub those nickels together.


109 posted on 01/28/2009 9:46:21 AM PST by dmz
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To: Citizen Blade
An unmarried woman who wants to have sex with her boyfriend without the fear of getting pregnant isn't acting like some "sexual animal."

Actually, she's behaving worse than an animal. Animals have intercourse because for them it is a matter of instinct. It is a sensation that gives them pleasure and they feel the need to do it. They are heedless of any and all consequences and it is arguable that they understand whether the act has anything to do with the begetting of young.

The woman in the scenario you outlined above (and even moreso, the man) is behaving similarly. She has divorced the procreative aspect of intercourse (the true purpose of the act, according to nature) and engages in the act for the pleasure of it alone. The difference is that she does so knowingly--which makes it worse, morally speaking, than if she did it unknowingly like an animal.

She's making a rational life choice to put off child-bearing until she is ready. If your assumption is that everyone who uses contraception is promiscuous, you are incorrect.

I'm not saying that everyone who uses contraception is promiscuous. I'm saying that everyone who uses artificial contraception is behaving immorally.

And immoral behavior, if not eventually curtailed, will lead the individual practicing it to a bad end, regardless of the what modern precautions are available.

And a society that promotes immoral behavior as 'a rational choice' will also come to a bad end.
110 posted on 01/28/2009 10:14:08 AM PST by Antoninus (America didn't turn away from conservatism, they turned away from many who faked it. - Mark Sanford)
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To: Antoninus

Excellent.


111 posted on 01/28/2009 10:18:02 AM PST by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Antoninus
She has divorced the procreative aspect of intercourse (the true purpose of the act, according to nature) and engages in the act for the pleasure of it alone.

And that is wrong why, exactly?

And a society that promotes immoral behavior as 'a rational choice' will also come to a bad end.

You're assuming what you still have to prove- namely, that contraceptive use is immoral.

112 posted on 01/28/2009 10:28:04 AM PST by Citizen Blade ("A Conservative Government is an organized hypocrisy" -Benjamin Disraeli)
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To: Niuhuru

“Beg to differ. I’m simply trying to avoid debt and make responsible choices”

I was not referring to you personally but to your so called upper class


113 posted on 01/28/2009 11:22:52 AM PST by cowtowney
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To: cowtowney

At the moment, I’m unemployed and part of the underclass.


114 posted on 01/28/2009 11:23:57 AM PST by Niuhuru (Fine, here's my gun, but let me give you the bullets first. I'll send them to you through the barrel)
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To: dmz; Niuhuru

“Whenever these issues are discussed, I’m a bit dismayed by the apparent class envy simmering just below the surface. Your comment about beemers and college tuition trumping having children seems an example of that.”

Let me explain

Niuhuru said “I find that interesting considering the underclass is breeding like rabbits.”

This is a snotty comment...as if the so called ‘underclass’ has no right to reproduce.

It’s not the problem with one class overproducing; they are doing the right thing. The upperclass is not producing enough.

I don’t care how much money people have. I’m a capitalist.
Whatever the reason, we’re not having enough babies. Your particular situation is not the point. It’s the demographics of our nation that is going down the drain.


115 posted on 01/28/2009 11:33:13 AM PST by cowtowney
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To: cowtowney

You followed your upperclass breeding comment with your own snotty comment about beemers and tuition payments. As if the upperclass has no right to spend their money on beemers and tuition payments.

You may not care how much money people have, but you do seem mighty concerned with how they spend it, if they are not spending it on stuff you deem important.


116 posted on 01/28/2009 11:49:08 AM PST by dmz
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To: MahatmaGandu
I can’t afford children. The state of California has me busy paying taxes to support the children of illegal aliens.

Do you think they'd have passed such hare-brained laws if most USA families were large and, well, voted large? I don't.

I am tired of the "cost of living is too expensive for kids" argument. I will admit, however, that fewer and fewer people seem to have the temperament to be around children. They see them as noisy wastes of time. Seems to be rooted in selfishness - and no, it was a bygone generation that thought "children should be seen and not heard." Yet that generation bred quite capably - they just knew not to treat children like little celebrities.

I am also tired of religous Christians gushing "children are a gift from God - life is so precious!" and then doing all they can to have micro-families.

117 posted on 01/28/2009 11:57:51 AM PST by Puddleglum (this space for rent)
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To: cowtowney
"Whatever the reason, we’re not having enough babies. "

This is the formula for death by democracy - the culture that created the Constitution will be replaced by a culture that does not give a damn about it, and it will be coup by ballot box. So long Western values - and by the way - so long capitalism. Cast your eyes to Africa to see what happens.

118 posted on 01/28/2009 12:02:16 PM PST by Puddleglum (this space for rent)
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To: Puddleglum

There’s a reason I put a sarcasm tag at the end of that comment.


119 posted on 01/28/2009 12:29:40 PM PST by MahatmaGandu (Remember, remember, the twenty-sixth of November.)
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To: MahatmaGandu
There’s a reason I put a sarcasm tag at the end of that comment.

still, I felt the need to grab the topic and run with it a stretch - no personal slight intended.

120 posted on 01/28/2009 1:45:02 PM PST by Puddleglum (this space for rent)
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To: Puddleglum

No worries, then. (-;


121 posted on 01/28/2009 1:47:44 PM PST by MahatmaGandu (Remember, remember, the twenty-sixth of November.)
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To: Puddleglum

Not sure if you are agreeing with me or not


122 posted on 01/28/2009 2:17:06 PM PST by cowtowney
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To: dmz

Yes I do care.

If they choose a new car over having babies it sickens me.

It sickens me more that kids get out of college with $100,000 in debt and then can not afford to have kids.


123 posted on 01/28/2009 2:20:43 PM PST by cowtowney
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To: cowtowney

The West is not having enough babies.


124 posted on 01/28/2009 3:08:32 PM PST by Puddleglum (this space for rent)
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To: Antoninus
The difference is that she does so knowingly

Which is to say, behaving in the manner that makes humans superior to animals. You can behave like an animal, if you prefer. Perhaps you could start by heading for your local grocer and start smashing bottles of diet cola for their immoral decoupling of taste and calories.

125 posted on 01/29/2009 1:47:37 PM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: dmz
Whenever these issues are discussed, I'm a bit dismayed by the apparent class envy simmering just below the surface.

Inventing arguments against the luxuries other people enjoy as the fruits of their superior achievement is a natural outgrowth of resentment. How easily some people take that first step onto the road that leads to Stalin'g gulags.

But we already have someone here who's on record as denying that post-Soviet Russia is "thriving" relative to its previous enslaved state.

126 posted on 01/29/2009 1:50:06 PM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: Antoninus
And immoral behavior, if not eventually curtailed, will lead the individual practicing it to a bad end

This is why I keep trying to turn you away from your immoral class-resentment rhetoric. Perhaps one day you will listen.

127 posted on 01/29/2009 1:51:51 PM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: cowtowney
This is a snotty comment... as if the so called 'underclass' has no right to reproduce.

In context, those referred to as the "underclass" are, by definition, those who knowingly that they will be relying upon the charity (or, worse, state-sponsored robbery) of others to support the children they choose to have. I for one make no bones about saying that they have no right to do so.

128 posted on 01/29/2009 1:54:20 PM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: cowtowney
If they choose a new car over having babies it sickens me.

And other people should give a flying flip about your opinion because...?

Hey -- I just realized that it sickens me that you spend your time blathering on the Internet instead of working in a soup kitchen. So, close out your account and hop to it!

129 posted on 01/29/2009 1:57:26 PM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: Antoninus

Yay. Contraception is the evil that most people are afraid to look at clearly.

Sexual gratification divorced from faithful marriage *and* procreation has been one of the main engines driving culture off into the abyss.


130 posted on 01/29/2009 2:52:25 PM PST by little jeremiah (Leave illusion, come to the truth. Leave the darkness, coShome to the light.)
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To: steve-b

“those referred to as the “underclass” are, by definition, those who knowingly that they will be relying upon the charity (or, worse, state-sponsored robbery) of others to support the children they choose to have. “

Says who? You can make a definition up out of air. Me too. Underclass are the poor. Nothing said about whether they are a ward of the state.

“I for one make no bones about saying that they have no right to do so.”

And per your next comment (”And other people should give a flying flip about your opinion because...? “),

Why should I or anyone else care about your opinion, either?

See? It goes both ways.


131 posted on 01/29/2009 2:53:42 PM PST by cowtowney
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To: cowtowney
Why should I or anyone else care about your opinion, either?

I don't require anyone to care about my opinion, because I am merely reiterating what sensible people have already figured out for themselves.

132 posted on 01/29/2009 3:08:53 PM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: steve-b

“I don’t require anyone to care about my opinion, because I am merely reiterating what sensible people have already figured out for themselves.”

You see...we differ in our opinion. That’s all. Your opinion is no better than mine. Your claim that “sensible people” agree with you is funny.

That’s what this board is for to read news stories and express your opinion in a civil manner. Telling me to “So, close out your account and hop to it!” is not in the spirit of these discussions.


133 posted on 01/29/2009 3:26:33 PM PST by cowtowney
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To: cowtowney
That's what this board is for to read news stories and express your opinion in a civil manner.

Funny, judging from your example I thought the purpose of this board was to accuse other members of being "snotty"....

134 posted on 01/30/2009 6:43:36 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: steve-b
This is why I keep trying to turn you away from your immoral class-resentment rhetoric.

Yawn. I resent no one except those who attempt to misrepresent my views. Such people are filthy stinking liars.
135 posted on 01/30/2009 8:17:52 AM PST by Antoninus (Obama: "Lucravi." -- Conservatives: "Vae victis.")
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To: Citizen Blade
You're assuming what you still have to prove- namely, that contraceptive use is immoral.

It is impossible to prove that anything is immoral to an atheist.

If you are a Christian or a Jew, however, God said: "Be fruitful and multiply." He didn't say, "Be barren, and die." Those words of advice come from somewhere else.
136 posted on 01/30/2009 8:22:41 AM PST by Antoninus (Obama: "Lucravi." -- Conservatives: "Vae victis.")
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To: Antoninus
It is impossible to prove that anything is immoral to an atheist.

I consider plenty of things immoral. Granted, I'm an agnostic and not an atheist.

If you are a Christian or a Jew, however, God said: "Be fruitful and multiply." He didn't say, "Be barren, and die." Those words of advice come from somewhere else.

As a non-Christian and non-Jew, that line of argument is not really persuasive to me.

137 posted on 01/30/2009 8:24:47 AM PST by Citizen Blade ("A Conservative Government is an organized hypocrisy" -Benjamin Disraeli)
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To: steve-b
Which is to say, behaving in the manner that makes humans superior to animals.

So now embracing sterility and using sex merely for pleasure makes one superior to animals? Sorry, I disagree. It actually makes one stupider than the most benighted creature alive.

One who accepts such a doctrine and uses artificial contraception says, in effect, "Life is bad. Children are a nuisance. Too many children are a curse."

Fortunately, such wicked individuals do not long leave their stain upon the earth. The future belongs to the children of those who embrace life.
138 posted on 01/30/2009 8:34:55 AM PST by Antoninus (Obama: "Lucravi." -- Conservatives: "Vae victis.")
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To: Citizen Blade
I consider plenty of things immoral. Granted, I'm an agnostic and not an atheist.

I'm sure you do. I once met a guy who tried to convince me that making porn movies was actually very moral. Needless to say, he wasn't a Christian or a Jew either.
139 posted on 01/30/2009 8:37:04 AM PST by Antoninus (Obama: "Lucravi." -- Conservatives: "Vae victis.")
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To: Antoninus
God said: "Be fruitful and multiply."


140 posted on 01/30/2009 8:44:10 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: Antoninus

“Too many” of anything is by definition a curse. Duh.


141 posted on 01/30/2009 8:44:56 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: Antoninus
One who accepts such a doctrine and uses artificial contraception says, in effect, "Life is bad. Children are a nuisance. Too many children are a curse."

Your argument falls apart because it is based on the assumption that people who use contraception are typically interested in not having any children. But that's not the case- typically, contraception is used to put off having children until later in life. The aforementioned college girl wants to be able to have sex without getting pregnant at 21, since she is incapable and unwilling to raise a child at that age. She wants to wait until she's older, married, has finished her education and has some financial stability before she has kids. That is the path typically taken by people who want some success in life.

What you consider "wicked" most people consider "responsibility." We have enough kids being born in our society to mothers who are unprepared and incompetent to take care of them.

142 posted on 01/30/2009 8:46:51 AM PST by Citizen Blade ("A Conservative Government is an organized hypocrisy" -Benjamin Disraeli)
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To: Antoninus
I resent no one except those who attempt to misrepresent my views.

projection (pr& JEK sh&n): the tendency to ascribe to another person feelings, thoughts, or attitudes present in oneself

143 posted on 01/30/2009 8:47:06 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: Citizen Blade
She wants to wait until she's older, married, has finished her education

I do believe that you've identified the real issue here. At least Antoninus hasn't taken to vitriol-throwing....

144 posted on 01/30/2009 8:48:46 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: steve-b
I do believe that you've identified the real issue here.

I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say.

145 posted on 01/30/2009 8:55:07 AM PST by Citizen Blade ("A Conservative Government is an organized hypocrisy" -Benjamin Disraeli)
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To: Citizen Blade
The aforementioned college girl wants to be able to have sex without getting pregnant at 21, since she is incapable and unwilling to raise a child at that age.

What do you call someone who wants it all but is unwilling to accept the natural consequences of their actions? Most young men and women who choose this "rational" lifestyle bring a lot more than a dowry to their wedding. STDs, emotional baggage, lunatic ex-boyfriends, and a pathological misunderstanding of the purpose of sexual intercourse. And then people wonder why there is so much divorce in our culture, that too being a "rational" lifestyle choice when things go bad.

She wants to wait until she's older, married, has finished her education and has some financial stability before she has kids. That is the path typically taken by people who want some success in life.

Engaging in pre-marital sex in no way enhances one's ability to finish an education or achieve financial stability. In fact, it's a major hindrance. Were your argument intellectually honest, you would acknowledge that obvious fact.

A truly responsible, rational person abstains from intercourse until they are ready and able to accept the natural consequences of the act.
146 posted on 01/30/2009 8:57:31 AM PST by Antoninus (Obama: "Lucravi." -- Conservatives: "Vae victis.")
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To: Antoninus
What do you call someone who wants it all but is unwilling to accept the natural consequences of their actions?

I guess we should stop using seat belts when we drive and football players should stop wearing protective pads when playing. After all, who are we to ameliorate the natural consequences of a car accident or impact by a 300 pound lineman?

Most young men and women who choose this "rational" lifestyle bring a lot more than a dowry to their wedding. STDs, emotional baggage, lunatic ex-boyfriends, and a pathological misunderstanding of the purpose of sexual intercourse.

Most? Nonsense. It's just sex- there's no need to be scared of it. Most people can handle their sex lives just fine.

Engaging in pre-marital sex in no way enhances one's ability to finish an education or achieve financial stability.

Perhaps. But avoiding pregnancy does.

In fact, it's a major hindrance.

Really? I guess someone needs to tell that to my educated, married and financial succesful friends that their pre-marital sex doomed them to a life of poverty and ignorance. I'm sure they'll give that "fact" the consideration it is due.

A truly responsible, rational person abstains from intercourse until they are ready and able to accept the natural consequences of the act.

Or, they simply take the necessary steps to prevent pregnancy from occurring. Works just as well.

147 posted on 01/30/2009 9:09:18 AM PST by Citizen Blade ("A Conservative Government is an organized hypocrisy" -Benjamin Disraeli)
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To: Citizen Blade
I guess we should stop using seat belts when we drive and football players should stop wearing protective pads when playing. After all, who are we to ameliorate the natural consequences of a car accident or impact by a 300 pound lineman?

Antoninus' argument leads to the conclusion that people should not drive or play football, thereby avoiding such undesired natural consequences.

148 posted on 01/30/2009 9:23:52 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: Antoninus

“A truly responsible, rational person abstains from intercourse until they are ready and able to accept the natural consequences of the act.”

I agree. Thanks


149 posted on 01/30/2009 9:24:19 AM PST by cowtowney
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To: cowtowney

A Texan endorsing the argument that people should give up cars and football? Better not let the neighbors know....


150 posted on 01/30/2009 9:26:14 AM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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