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Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity (Acts 11:26) (OPEN)
Maxwell Institute ^ | Daniel C. Peterson

Posted on 03/02/2009 8:49:28 AM PST by greyfoxx39

Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity
Daniel C. Peterson
Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute,

The views expressed in this article are the views of the author and do not represent the position of the Maxwell Institute, Brigham Young University, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks

Since the inception of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, many critics have denied that it is Christian. Surprisingly, the basis for the claim has little to do with the standard definition of Christian: anyone or any group that believes in Jesus Christ as the Savior and Son of God. Rather, it has to do with Latter-day Saint doctrines that some feel are alien to "traditional Christianity," where "traditional Christianity" means that body of beliefs held by most present-day Christian churches. The argument essentially goes that if the LDS church believes in certain doctrines not believed in by most present-day Christian churches, then the LDS church cannot be Christian.

The problem with this argument is that the major doctrines under attack are amazingly similar to Christian beliefs held during the New Testament period and the generations immediately following.

Does the New Testament define Christianity?

The Gospels lack any explicit treatment of the word Christian. Indeed, the word appears only three times in the New Testament, and never from the mouth of Christ himself. The word Christianity is entirely absent from the New Testament.

Acts 11:26 tells us that "the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." Here, the passive construction "were called Christians" suggests that the term was first used not by Christians, but by non-Christians. (Similarly, the names Yankee and Mormon were first used by outsiders.)

The term was probably modeled on such words as Herodian and Caesarian, already in circulation at that time, and meant nothing more complicated than Christ's people or, perhaps, partisans of Christ. Note that the Christian congregation at Antioch represented a wide range of backgrounds, including Jews and non-Jews. These believers displayed the whole spectrum of attitudes toward the Jewish law—from continued adherence to the traditions of Judaism to rejection of all things Jewish.

The next mention of the term Christian is in Acts 26:28, where Agrippa makes his famous reply to Paul: "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian." The Apostle had related to Agrippa and Festus the story of his conversion. The doctrinal content of Paul's speech is simple and straightforward: Paul bears witness that Jesus had been foretold by the Jewish prophets, that he suffered and rose from the dead, and that forgiveness may be obtained through him. Paul described Christ's mission as summoning people to "repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." (Acts 26:20.) The scriptural account gives no indication that Paul had to correct Agrippa's use of the word Christian to describe one who believes in these basic doctrines.

First Peter 4:16 is the last instance of the word's appearance in the New Testament. This verse is virtually without doctrinal definition, merely assuring the believer that he need not be ashamed if he suffer as a "Christian." Even here, the term may be one that persecuting outsiders were using. It may have derived from current Roman, that is, non-Christian, legal usage.

In each of these instances, the term appears to originate from someone outside the community of believers themselves. In neither of the two passages from Acts does Paul use the word himself; it is non-Christians who use it. Where the term is used, the stated and implied beliefs of the Christians are far different from the present-day beliefs used to deny that Latter-day Saints are Christians, as can be clearly shown.

Is it true that because Latter-day Saints reject the traditional doctrine of the Trinity, they are not Christians?

The Church's first Article of Faith is "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." This is a straightforward statement of belief that there are three members in the Godhead. However, Latter-day Saints do reject the doctrines of the Trinity as taught by most Christian churches today. For the most part, these creeds—the most famous of which is the Nicene Creed—were canonized in the fourth and fifth centuries A.D. following centuries of debate about the nature of the Godhead. Consequently, it is highly questionable whether these creeds reflect the thinking or beliefs of the New Testament church.

"The exact theological definition of the doctrine of the Trinity," notes J. R. Durnmelow, "was the result of a long process of development, which was not complete until the fifth century, or maybe even later."1 As Bill Forrest remarks, "To insist that a belief in the Trinity is requisite to being Christian, is to acknowledge that for centuries after the New Testament was completed thousands of Jesus' followers were in fact not really 'Christian.'"2 Certainly the revelatory manner by which Joseph Smith learned of the doctrine of the Godhead pierces through the centuries-old debate on the subject.

Is it true that because Latter-day Saints believe that human beings can eventually become like God, they are not Christian?

As even a cursory glance at early Christian thought reveals, the idea that man might become as God—known in Greek as theosis or theopoiesis —may be found virtually everywhere, from the New Testament through the writings of the first four centuries.3 Church members take seriously such passages as Psalm 82:6, John 10:33—36, and Philippians 2:5—6, in which a plurality of gods and the idea of becoming like God are mentioned.

The notion of theosis is characteristic of church fathers Irenaeus (second century A.D.), Clement of Alexandria (third century A.D.), and Athanasius (fourth century A.D.). Indeed, so pervasive was the doctrine in the fourth century that Athanasius's archenemies, the Arians, also held the belief and the Origenist monks at Jerusalem heatedly debated "whether all men would finally become like Christ or whether Christ was really a different creature."4

According to an ancient formula, "God became man that man might become God." Early Christians "were invited to 'study' to become gods" (note the plural).5

Though the idea of human deification waned in the Western church in the Middle Ages, it remained very much alive in the Eastern Orthodox faith, which includes such Christian sects today as the Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox churches.6 Jaroslav Pelikan notes, "The chief idea of St. Maximus, as of all Eastern theology, [was] the idea of deification."7

Is the subject of deification truly a closed question? After all, echoes of man becoming like God are still found in the work of later and modem writers in the West. For instance, C. S. Lewis's writings are full of the language of human deification.8 Even Martin Luther was capable of speaking of the "deification of human nature," although in what sense it is not clear.9

Related to the claim that Latter-day Saints are not Christians because of their belief in deification is the assertion that if they hold to some kind of belief in deification then it must be that Church members do not view Jesus as uniquely divine. Such an assertion is totally erroneous. The phrase "Only Begotten Son" occurs with its variants at least ten times in the Book of Mormon, fourteen times in the Doctrine and Covenants, and nineteen times in the Pearl of Great Price. Basic to Latter-day Saint theology is the uniqueness of Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of the Father in the flesh.

Is it true that because Latter-day Saints practice baptism for the dead, they are not Christian?

The argument that Latter-day Saints cannot be Christians because they practice baptism for the dead presumes that it has been definitely established that 1 Corinthians 15:29 has nothing to do with an early Christian practice of baptism for the dead. The argument ignores the fact that such second-century groups as the Montanists and Marcionites—who are invariably referred to as Christians—practiced a similar rite. The practice was condemned in A.D. 393 by the Council of Hippo, which certainly implies that it was still a vital issue.10 As Hugh Nibley has shown in great detail, many of the Church Fathers understood this verse literally, even when they did not always know what to make of it.11

Mormon temple ritual in general is another source of controversy, largely because many think that the reticence to talk about it is not Christian. But the New Testament scholar Joachim Jeremias has shown that "the desire to keep the most sacred things from profanation"—a concern shared by the Latter-day Saints—is widely found in the New Testament and in the early Christian community.12

The second-century church father Ignatius of Antioch was known to have held "secret" doctrines. The historian Tertullian (second century A.D.) even takes the heretics to task because they provide access to their services to everyone without distinction. As a result, the demeanor of these heretics becomes frivolous, merely human, without seriousness and without authority.13

The pagan critic Celsus (second century A.D.) probably referred to Christianity as a "secret system of belief" because access to the various ordinances of the church—baptism and the sacrament—was available only to the initiated. In his response to Celsus, Origen (third century A.D.) readily admitted that many practices and doctrines were not available to everyone, but he argues that this was not unique to Christianity.14 As late as the fourth century, some groups were making efforts to return to an earlier Christian tradition of preserving certain doctrines and practices for the initiated only.15

Is it true that because Latter-day Saints do not accept the Bible as their sole authority in faith and doctrine, they are not Christians?

Latter-day Saints accept the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price as scriptural, in addition to the Bible. But the whole question of canon—which writings are sacred, inspired, and binding on disciples—has always been a complicated one in the history of traditional Christianity.

In the earliest period of the Christian church, it is difficult to see a distinction being made between canonical writings and some books not in the present Protestant canon. For example, the Epistle of Jude draws heavily on noncanonical books such as 1 Enoch and The Assumption of Moses. As E. Isaac says of 1 Enoch, "It influenced Matthew, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, Hebrews, 1 John, Jude (which quotes it directly) and Revelation (with numerous points of contact)…in molding New Testament doctrines concerning the nature of the Messiah, the Son of Man, the messianic kingdom, demonology, the future, resurrection, the final judgment, the whole eschatological theater, and symbolism."16

The so-called Muratorian Fragment, dating from the late second century A.D., shows that some Christians of the period accepted the Apocalypse of Peter as scripture. Clement of Alexandria, writing around A.D. 200, seems to admit a New Testament canon of thirty books, including the Epistle of Barnabas, the Epistle of Clement, and the Preaching of Peter. Origen recognized the Epistle of Barnabas and the letter from the Shepherd of Hermas.17

Even in more recent times, the question of canon has not been unanimously resolved. Martin Luther characterized the Epistle of James as "an epistle of straw"—largely because it seemed to disagree with his teaching of justification by faith alone—and mistrusted the book of Revelation.18 Roman Catholics and the Orthodox churches tend to accept the Apocrypha as canonical—books included in their Bibles but left out of most Protestant Bibles, including the current King James Version. In fact, Eastern Orthodox churches have never settled the question of canon. A number of scholars have pointed out that the church has priority, both logically and historically, over the Bible—that is, a group of believers existed before a certain body of texts, such as the books of the Old and New Testament, were declared canonical.19

Is it true that because Latter-day Saints deny the doctrine of original sin, they are not Christian?

The notion of original sin as it is usually understood today in traditional Christianity is a distinctly late invention that evolved from the controversies of the fourth and fifth centuries. Tertullian (second century A.D.), who was very concerned with the idea of sin, says nothing of the doctrine of original sin. Indeed, very few of the Church Fathers up to the fourth century show any interest in it at all. It was not clearly enunciated until Augustine (fourth/fifth century) needed it in his battle with the Christian Pelagians, who denied the doctrine, and it came to be associated with the Council of Carthage in A.D. 418.20

As Norbert Brox points out, "Pelagian theology was the traditional one, especially in Rome. But the Africans, under the theological leadership of Augustine, managed to make their charge of heresy stick within the church, thereby establishing the Augustinian theology of grace as the basis of the Western tradition."21 Some modern scholars now raise the issue that Augustine, and not Pelagius, was the real heretic.22

Is it true that because Latter-day Saints reject the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, they are not Christians?

Perhaps the most famous statement of the Latter-day Saint understanding of the relation between grace and works is in 2 Nephi 25:23: "It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." This idea is sometimes called synergism —a term Van A. Harvey has used to describe Roman Catholicism.23

The doctrine that salvation depends both on God's grace and man's good works is very old in Catholic theology. One of the canons at the Council of Trent specifically repudiates the notion of grace alone: "If anyone saith that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sin for Christ's sake alone; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified, let him be anathema."24 Are we to say, then, that Roman Catholicism is not Christian because it does not subscribe to the doctrine of salvation by grace alone?

The doctrine of salvation through faith alone, sometimes called solafidianism, is not a biblical doctrine: there are no instances in the New Testament of the phrases "grace alone" or "faith alone." The philosopher-theologian Frederick Sontag argues that Jesus himself was interested not in words, and not even in theological dogma, but in action: For the Jesus in Matthew, he says, "Action is more important than definition."25 Richard Lloyd Anderson shows that even in Paul's major treatments of the doctrine of grace, particularly in Romans and Ephesians, there is a balancing element of works as well.26 Other New Testament writers, most notably James, make it clear that saving faith can only be recognized through works: "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17.)

The generations immediately following the New Testament period also recognized the need for both grace and works for salvation. The famous Didache—The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles—which dates back to before A.D. 70, is conspicuous for its moralism and legalism.27 It is also significant that "the oldest datable literary document of Christian religion soon after the time of the Apostles"—the letter of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians, written in the last decade of the first century—emphasizes "good works, as it is in the Epistle of James, which may belong to the same time."28 The second-century document Shepherd of Hermas contains twelve commandments. J. L. Gonzales writes that they "are a summary of the duties of a Christian, and Hermas affirms that in obeying them there is eternal life."29

Even F. F. Bruce, who contends that Paul taught a doctrine of salvation by grace alone, concurs sadly that the doctrine was not a part of the early Christian church: "The Biblical doctrine of divine grace, God's favour shown to sinful humanity, …seems almost, in the post-apostolic age, to reappear only with Augustine. Certainly the majority of Christian writers who flourished between the apostles and Augustine do not seem to have grasped what Paul was really getting at…Marcion has been called the only one of these writers who understood Paul."30

Marcion, incidentally, was a second-century gnostic Christian who distinguished between the gods of the Old and New Testament. He felt that the Old Testament deity was a lesser deity than the God of the New Testament and rejected the Old Testament entirely, as well as any New Testament writing "tainted" with Old Testament ideas. Marcion produced a canon of scripture that recognized no Apostle of Jesus except Paul. He considered the other Apostles falsifiers of God.

By contrast, in the fourth century, one prominent Christian bishop was teaching the necessity of rituals. "If any man receive not Baptism," wrote Cyril of Jerusalem, "he hath not salvation." He also wrote about an ordinance of anointing, which he called "chrism": "Having been counted worthy of this Holy Chrism, ye are called Christians… For before you were deemed worthy of this grace, ye had no proper claim to that title."31

The Eastern Orthodox churches also do not accept solafidianism, the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. "Eastern Orthodox Christians emphasize a unity of faith and works. For the Orthodox, being conformed to the image of Christ…includes a response of our faith and works."32 Sensing the danger that a "grace alone" position could become "cheap grace" (to borrow an expression from the theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer) or "a theologically thin, no-sweat Christianity," some modern Protestant writers have adopted a similar position, recognizing that works also play a vital role in salvation.33

With so many other past and present Christians rejecting the position that grace alone brings salvation, excluding the Latter-day Saints from "Christianity" for their belief in faith and works is not justified.

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints easily meet the definition of a Christian as implicitly defined in the New Testament: they believe that ancient prophets foretold Christ's coming, that Jesus Christ suffered for our transgressions, that he was put to death but rose from the dead, that through him we may obtain forgiveness of our sins, and that he will come again in glory.

The doctrinal reasons some Christians give for excluding the Latter-day Saints from Christianity make little sense, because many of the doctrines used by traditional Christianity are late developments, reflective of creeds formulated in the fourth and fifth century or developed during the Reformation.

Given the wide variety of beliefs among the various Christian churches, it is better to take persons claiming to be Christians at their word and to let the Lord be the judge.

Daniel C. Peterson, an instructor of Arabic at Brigham Young University, serves on the Church Curriculum Gospel Doctrine Writing Committee. Stephen D. Ricks is an associate professor of Hebrew and Semitic Languages at BYU. He is currently accompanying faculty in the university's travel study program in Israel.

Notes

1.   Cited by Bill Forrest, "Are Mormons Christians?" Mormon Miscellaneous Response Series (Salt Lake City: Mormon Miscellaneous, n.d.).

2.   Ibid.

3.   See appropriate index entries in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100—600): The Christian Tradition (Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1971) and the index entry "Salvation —defined as deification," in The Spirit of Eastern Christendom (600—1700): The Christian Tradition (Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1974). See also K, E. Norman, Deification: The Content of Athanasian Soteriology, Ph.D. dissertation, Duke Univ., 1980.

4.   Clyde L. Manschreck, A History of Christianity in the World, 2d. ed. (Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice Hall, 1985), p. 52.

5.   P. Barlow, "Unorthodox Orthodoxy: The Idea of Deification in Christian History," Sunstone 8 (Sep./Oct. 1983):16—17.

6.   See G. I. Mantzarides, The Deification of Man: Saint Gregory Palamas and Orthodox Tradition, trans. Liadain Sherrard (Crestwood, N.Y.: St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1984).

7.   The Spirit of Eastern Christendom, p. 10.

8.   A Grief Observed (New York: Bantam Books, 1963), pp. 84—85; Mere Christianity (New York: Macmillan, 1960), pp. 138—40,174,187.

9.   Jack R. Pressau, I'm Saved, You're Saved…Maybe (Atlanta: John Knox, 1977), p. 57; A. Nygren, Agape and Eros, trans. Philip S. Watson (Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1982), p. 734.

10.   Samuel M. Gilimour, "Baptism for the Dead," in An Encyclopedia of Religion, ed. V. Ferm (New York: The Philosophical Library, 1945), p. 54.

11.   "Baptism for the Dead in Ancient Times," Improvement Era, Dec. 1948, pp. 786—88, 836; Jan. 1949, pp. 24—26, 60; Feb. 1949, pp. 90— 91, 109—10, 112; Mar. 1949, pp. 146—48, 180—83; Apr. 1949, pp. 212—14.

12.   The Eucharistic Words of Jesus (New York: Scribner's, 1966), p. 130.

13.   Tertullianus, Apologia 7—8; De praescriptionibus adversus haereticos 41.

14.   Ongen, Contra Celsum 1:7.

15.   Norbert Brox, Kirchengeschichte des Altertums (Düsseldorf, West Germany: Patmos Verlag, 1983), p. 134.

16.   E. Isaac, "1 (Ethiopic Apocalypse of) Enoch," in The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, ed. J. H. Charlesworth, 2 vols, (Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1983), 1:10. See also "Apocrypha," in The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, ed. G. A. Buttrick (Nashville. Abingdon, 1953), 1:161—69.

17.   Manschreck, p. 33.

18.   R. Bainton, Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther (Nashville: Abingdon—Cokesbury Press, 1950), pp. 177, 331—32; Max Lackmann, Sola Fide: Eine exegetische Studie über Jakobus 2 zur reformatorischen Rechtfertigurigslehre (Gutersloh, West Germany: C. Bertelsmann Verlag, 1949).

19.   H. Holzapfel, Die Sekten in Deutschland (Regensburg, West Germany: Verlag Josef Kuesel & Friedrich Pustet A. G., 1923), pp. 20, 23—27; P. Johnson, A History of Christianity (New, York: Atheneum, 1983), p. 22.

20.   K. Rahner, "Original Sin," in Sacramentum Mundi: An Encyclopedia of Theology, ed. Rahner et al., 6 vols. (London: Burns and Oates, 1969), 4:329.

21.   Kirchengeschichte, p. 141 (authors' translation).

22.   W. E. Phipps, "The Heresiarch: Pelagius or Augustine?" Anglican Theological Review 62 (1980):124—33.

23.   A Handbook of Theological Terms (London: George Allen Unwin, 1966), p. 199.

24.   Session V1, Canon 12, cited in L. Boettner, Roman Catholicism (Phillipsburg, N.J.: The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1986), p. 261.

25.   "The Once and Future Christian," International Journal for Philosophy of Religion 19 (1986):116—18.

26.   Understanding Paul (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1983), pp. 185—86, 272—76, 355—62.

27.   Justo L. Gonzales, A History of Christian Thought, 3 vols (Nashville: Abingdon, 1970), 1:69, 94—96.

28.   Werner Jaeger, Early Christianity and Greek Paideia (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1961), pp 12, 15—16.

29.   Gonzales, p. 89.

30.   The Spreading Flame (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1979), p. 334.

31.   Catechetical Lectures 3:10; 21:5.

32.   W. G. Rusch, "Getting to Know the Orthodox," The Lutheran, 2 Apr. 1986, p. 12.

33.   Pressau, p. 38. See also J. Macquarrie, An Existentialist Theology (Harmondsworth, England: Penguin Books, 1973), pp. 144—49.



TOPICS: General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: animositytowardslds; antagonism; antimormonthread; christian; christianity; contemptforlds; lds; mormon
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Acts 11:26 tells us that "the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."

From the Religion Moderator's Page:

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1 posted on 03/02/2009 8:49:28 AM PST by greyfoxx39
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To: greyfoxx39

Hasn’t this been posted six gazillion times over the last several days. Jeez.


2 posted on 03/02/2009 8:51:41 AM PST by GUNGAGALUNGA
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To: colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...
Ping to LDS view on "And They Were First Called Christians in Antioch..."..."Does the New Testament define Christianity?"

Post away...! Everyone welcome!

3 posted on 03/02/2009 8:55:21 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (buckle in for 4 more years of detached, grandstanding flourish left untethered by an incurious media)
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To: greyfoxx39
Comparing LDS beliefs with First-Century Gnosticism.

There, title corrected. LDS is a form of gnosticism, down to the idea of a series of gods emanating from each other. Does this make them bad people (the followers of the religion I mean) -- NO. However, those beliefs are not Christian. So, while I will respect the LDS ppl and their rights to worship freely, I decline to consider them as Christians.
4 posted on 03/02/2009 8:56:10 AM PST by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
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To: GUNGAGALUNGA

Welcome to FreeRepublic. You will become aware that the discussion of Mormonism and how it relates to Christianity is an ongoing discussion of the Religion Forum.


5 posted on 03/02/2009 8:56:36 AM PST by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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To: GUNGAGALUNGA
Nope.

From the Religion Moderator:

"This thread is posted in the Religion Forum. If you do not wish to see RF posts, do NOT use the "everything" option on the browse. Instead, browse by "News/Activism." When you log back in, the browse will reset to "everything" - so be sure to set it back to "News/Activism."

Also, this is an "open" thread. That means the posters will argue both for and against other beliefs and they may become contentious.

Link

6 posted on 03/02/2009 9:00:22 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (buckle in for 4 more years of detached, grandstanding flourish left untethered by an incurious media)
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To: Cronos

Well said Cronos.

Like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Mormons believe things not readily distinguishable from the early Gnostics. They do not believe that Jesus is both True God and True Man and they deny the doctrine of the Trinity.

In which case: who cares about the trimmings? If your God is not ‘Three-persons, One God’, and your Christ is not Incarnate then there’s no point worriting about 16th Century quarrels about faith and works and so forth. You’re not a ‘Christian’, anymore than a 3rd century Manichean is a Christian.


7 posted on 03/02/2009 9:24:29 AM PST by agere_contra (So ... where's the birth certificate?)
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To: GUNGAGALUNGA
Hasn’t this been posted six gazillion times over the last several days. Jeez.

Yes: by MORMONS who do NOT want a 'real' discussion over WHO can be a 'christian'.

The very SAME Mormon's who say that Flds members CANNOT be called MORMON.

8 posted on 03/02/2009 9:31:42 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: greyfoxx39
Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity (Acts 11:26) (OPEN)

Who really cares what they BELIEVE?

The way their 'church' was started goes DIRECTLY against the warnings of the FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIAN CHURCH!!

9 posted on 03/02/2009 9:33:02 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: greyfoxx39

Years ago I did not have the impression that mormons considered themselves to be “fellow” christians, they saw themselves as quite distinct and didn’t have any apparent desire to group themselves in with the rest of us.

That seems to have changed in the last decade or so. It is my impression, at least, that in recent years mormons have become increasingly anxious to be considered “fellow” believers by the christian world at large. My question for any mormon who might want to reply, is this: is this PR, or is there an underlying shift in attitude among mormons? Is there an underlying shift in emphasis or doctrine among the current generation of mormons?


10 posted on 03/02/2009 9:58:27 AM PST by marron
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To: greyfoxx39
Are we to say, then, that Roman Catholicism is not Christian because it does not subscribe to the doctrine of salvation by grace alone?

The citation that this piece attempts to use to prove the proposition that "Roman Catholicism ... does not subscribe to the doctrine of salvation by grace alone" is Trent's rejection of sola fide as understood by Luther. But "grace alone" and "faith alone" are not two ways of saying the same thing, nor does any orthodox Christian think they are.

In fact, Roman Catholicism most certainly does subscribe to a doctrine of salvation by grace alone, but not faith (as Luther defined it) alone.

It's wrong to suppose that Mormon doctrines are identical with those of the first century church. It's even more readily demonstrable that Mormon doctrines on soteriology and the nature of God do not agree with those of any other modern Christian group.

11 posted on 03/02/2009 9:59:41 AM PST by Campion
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To: greyfoxx39
By their fruits ye shall know them ...

Here's a few of the reasons why I reject claims that Mormons are Christian ...

Mormonism teaches:

  1. That Jesus and Satan are brothers

  2. That God had incestuous sexual relations with His daughter, Mary, impregnating her with Jesus

  3. That Christian pastors are "dimwitted hirelings of Satan"

  4. Of sacred scriptures based on pagan works such as prayers to Egyptian gods for dead spirits – which were supposedly translated using occult devices such as peep stones

  5. That God is a polygamous celestial stud married to our Heavenly Mother, whose name is so sacred we are not to say it out loud

  6. Of Kolob and of other worlds named Planet Oblish and Planet Enish-go-on-dosh ruled by a governing power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam

  7. Of prominent display of Satanic symbols such as pentagrams, baphomets, earth stones, and saturn stones on his churches' religious buildings and literature

  8. Of portraying Satan as the god of this world and having him teach church doctrine in the Mormon temple ceremony

  9. Of the wearing a fig leaf apron in temple ceremonies to symbolize Satan’s power and priesthoods

  10. Of offering prayers to the devil in the temple ceremony – Oh God, hear the words of my mouth – and of praising him in the sacred rites by chanting Hebrew words whose translation is Marvelous Lucifer

  11. That husbands can resurrect their wives from the grave

  12. Of having special grips and clasps in order to tell ghosts from angels and the devil

  13. Of practicing baptism for the dead

  14. Of wearing magic underwear to protect from physical harm – with symbols so sacred that they must be cut out and buried and the garment burned when it wears out

  15. That people are not saved by grace, but instead are burdened by a complex series of rules and regulations which determine their progression as gods of their own planets and the ultimate size and quality of their harem of goddess wives

  16. That Joseph Smith was greater than Jesus


12 posted on 03/02/2009 10:03:04 AM PST by Zakeet (Grow your own dope. Plant a liberal.)
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To: greyfoxx39
Mormonism = Heresy and Blasphemy!

The fact that both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young went to their death professing a belief in their man-made satanic religion, they are both spending eternity in HELL!

Not just an empty accusation, but from Christ Himself,

The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42 NKJV)

The very moment they died they found out they were wrong. By now both men have been separated from the wheat, and being just tares they have been thrown into the fire.
13 posted on 03/02/2009 10:04:44 AM PST by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: marron

It’s all marketing. The brand has issues in the states especailly in the Internet age and is not bring in the converts like it did. Depnding on the numbers you look at they are holding or in rapid declines here. They are now moving overseas for fresh recruits. Being seen as “Christian” is much easier in foriegn markets.

It has nothing to do with dogma.


14 posted on 03/02/2009 10:26:43 AM PST by ejonesie22 (Stupidity has an expiration date 1-20-2013 *(Thanks Nana))
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To: OneVike
The very moment they died they found out they were wrong.

I dont believe this for a moment. Both knew Mormonism was a scam, and they both used it to enrich themselves and get all the women they wanted.

Ole Joe figured out a much better scam than his peep stone/buried money play. The new one got him 10 percent of every members income, and any woman who met his pleasure. He knew, Bring-em-young knew, and all the original witnesses knew, Mormonism is a scam.

15 posted on 03/02/2009 10:40:43 AM PST by Don Carlos (You can touch a nun once or twice, but don't get in the habit.)
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To: marron; greyfoxx39; All
That seems to have changed in the last decade or so. It is my impression, at least, that in recent years mormons have become increasingly anxious to be considered “fellow” believers by the christian world at large. My question for any mormon who might want to reply, is this: is this PR, or is there an underlying shift in attitude among mormons? Is there an underlying shift in emphasis or doctrine among the current generation of mormons?

Well, I'm not ex-Mormon, but LDS is part of my family heritage. But you've hit the nail on the head.

LDS leaders are quick to shy away from wanting to be considered as yet another Christian denomination. They don't see themselves as yet another branch of say, Protestantism. But in a marketing savvy age, they have been attempting to bash the cult-labelers by redefining themselves as "Christian."

Also, you need to understand that just about ALL of the top LDS 70 general authorities move & operate in the business realm. They are used to getting marketing results from marketing $.

This PR move has become even more pronounced in recent times due to having to distinguish themselves from their stepsons and stepdaughters -- the fundamentalist LDS.

But at the core of all of this is a wrestling for the inward Mormon soul. There's at least two prominent camps: On the one hand, you have what you described in your first graph: Years ago I did not have the impression that mormons considered themselves to be “fellow” christians, they saw themselves as quite distinct and didn’t have any apparent desire to group themselves in with the rest of us.

Up until his death, the internally recognized "leader" of this emphasis was LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie. Features of this group included (these are not actual quotes, but summarize what has been said both behind the scenes and even openly at times):
(a) "We're going to stress what makes us distinctive -- the restoration and 'restoration Scriptures' and downplay the Bible"
(b) "We're going to go out of our way to label the rest of church bodies for what our 'restoration Scriptures' say they are: Apostates, corrupt professors with abominable creeds. ALL of them!" [Example: Most 19th-century LDS "prophets," etc.]
(c) "We don't need to hide statements that we believe we're god-in-embryos and will vaunt our future godhood with literal pull-ourselves-up-by-own-bootstraps comments." [Example: LDS "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball]
(d) "We don't seek a special relationship with Jesus Christ like Christendom does" [Example: McConkie's special devotion on this very topic to BYU students in the early 1980s]

But you're right. Things have increasingly changed, especially in the last decade or so:

One BYU prof (Robinson) co-wrote a book with an evangelical (Blomberg) re: How Wide the Divide.
Other BYU profs (like ex-Presbyterian pastor R. Keller) and Millet among others have tried to open up more dialogue with Christian leaders -- de-emphasizing what their own "Scriptures" say about how all such Christian sect creeds are supposedly "abominable." (see Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History section where he describes his "first vision" -- vv. 18-20, especially v. 19).
Some of these leaders have stressed never-emphasized LDS standard works "Scriptures" on things like "grace" -- but then have to either leave out Book of Mormon verses like 2 Nephi 25:23 -- "saved by grace AFTER ALL YOU can DO" -- and Helaman 12:24 -- "grace according to their works" -- or redefine them entirely. (I mean, how can you ever do enough to finally get God's grace to kick in? And if grace is prompted by works, then you've just redefined "grace" -- it's no longer either "grace" or based upon who God is)
LDS "prophets" like Hinckley, when asked by Time magazine and other media sources about the doctrine of LDS becoming gods, would downplay that. Hinckley once told them it was "just a couplet" regarding earlier LDS "prophet" Lorenzo Snow's proclamation that god was once a man, and that men would become gods.
And the PR Marketers under Hinckley thought it'd be best if they advised media outlets to stop using "Mormon" in their articles and used the full name ahead of LDS (Church of Jesus Christ) -- thereby emphasizing their version of Christ. Now that Hinckley is deceased, the official church reps are starting to use "Mormon" more frequently again -- perhaps realizing it's quite un-shed-able when even their own members regularly utilize it.

So which version is better? Well, in some ways the second group -- dialogue is always good; tis better for LDS to be moving a bit closer to orthodox Biblical teachings -- which is what their cousins, the Reorganized Church of JC did to some degree in this generation. But frankly, as with many PR campaigns, it's also more deceptive because LDS will try to hide what makes them so "distinctive" by saying "Well, you're not ready for our 'meaty' teachings yet...keep lapping up our milk for now and we'll teach you how we've managed to digest the rest later." It's also deceptive because they have to downright "hide" what their leaders and even their "Scriptures" have clearly taught. This deception can lure people worldwide into joining something they didn't bargain for at the beginning. (Like bait and fish)

(At least with the old brand of Mormonism, the deception was more inward toward its members while coming across a bit as forthright firebrand mavericks to outsiders)

16 posted on 03/02/2009 10:47:55 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: marron

Years ago I did not have the impression that mormons considered themselves to be “fellow” christians, they saw themselves as quite distinct and didn’t have any apparent desire to group themselves in with the rest of us.

That seems to have changed in the last decade or so. It is my impression, at least, that in recent years mormons have become increasingly anxious to be considered “fellow” believers by the christian world at large. My question for any mormon who might want to reply, is this: is this PR, or is there an underlying shift in attitude among mormons? Is there an underlying shift in emphasis or doctrine among the current generation of mormons?


I am no longer Mormon, but will respond with my experience.

I joined the LDS church while still in my teens, in the late 1980’s. At the time I was all about “Of course we are Christians, the name Jesus Christ is in the name of our Church, Duh!”

Then other members started to explain to me that “We (the LDS) were the only TRUE CHRISTIANS, and isn’t it a shame that those other people (mainstream Christians, esp “reborns” or “gracers”) were SO deceived.” “We are TRUE Christians, those who call themselves Christians really aren’t, so it is OK for us to call ourselves Christians”

There were a few older members who didn’t like the attempts to equate the LDS with “mainstream Christianity” and would say things like “They aren’t Christians, why are we trying to be like them, or make them accept us?!?”

My point is that the LDS do not equate themselves with any group calling itself Christian outside of Mormonism. The believe only they have the truth. However, this use of a common term, and their PR activity to equate themselves as “just as Christian as the rest of them” is a means of gaining political clout and holding on to membership numbers.

But, for the most part, the rank and file LDS (in my experience) still believe they are above ‘regular Christians’ because they have the truth.

I thank God every day that He broke the chains of Mormonism in my life and set me free in His Son Jesus Christ!


17 posted on 03/02/2009 10:57:25 AM PST by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian. "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Don Carlos
He knew, Bring-em-young knew, and all the original witnesses knew, Mormonism is a scam.

Believe what you want about there understanding of what they did, I could care less.

Their punishment is the same!
18 posted on 03/02/2009 10:58:50 AM PST by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Zakeet; marron
That Christian pastors are "dimwitted hirelings of Satan"

BTW, this is yet another example of a "transition" within Mormonism that Marron mentioned -- and I commented on in #16. Standard LDS temple ritual dialogue up until about 1990 retained a presentation where Christian pastors were reinforced to Mormons as "hirelings of Satan."

The LDS church did away with it. (Perhaps they were hearing messages from George Bush I at that time about a "softer, gentler America" and asked themselves, "Hmm...how can we become softer, gentler Mormons?")

Of course, all those LDS who were minors or not yet born who have never heard that temple reprise (that would be about all Mormons in their mid-30s and younger) should ask the older generation of Mormons why they tolerated such temple nonsense to begin with? (They could ask, "Why didn't you ever formally object to Christian pastors, preachers, reverends, teachers, etc. being stereotyped and identified as in league with Satan?")

19 posted on 03/02/2009 11:03:18 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
Nice post..BUT, I would add that the deception is also taking the tack of the mormon church now attempting to define Christianity to suite mormonism by various means such as websites like THIS, and going on the attack via their million-dollar public relations arm and their membership.
20 posted on 03/02/2009 11:20:10 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (buckle in for 4 more years of detached, grandstanding flourish left untethered by an incurious media)
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