go back to Latin...
Posted on 05/16/2009 2:21:27 PM PDT by NYer
RICHBORO, Pa. — Instead of saying “Good morning,” Father Joseph McLaughlin greets his secretary with a bright “Peace be with you.” There’s been a change recently in the way Jeanne Flower responds.
“And with your spirit,” she says.
It used to be: “And also with you,” just as at Mass.
But she now replies with the revised version, which American Catholics will begin using liturgically sometime in the near future.
That is one of the changes approved by Rome, reflecting the Vatican’s desire for translations more faithful to the Latin original.
Realizing that it is important to catechize his parishioners regarding the changes, Father McLaughlin, pastor of St. Vincent de Paul Church in Richboro, Pa., put a link on the parish’s web page to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Committee on Divine Worship’s website. He also excerpted the changes in parts of the Mass in his parish’s newsletter.
“You have an opportunity for it to sink in, to give them some of the explanations,” said Father McLaughlin.
Msgr. Anthony Sherman, executive director of the U.S. bishops’ Secretariat for Divine Worship, said he is encouraging priests and lay people to become familiarized with the texts of the Roman Missal that have been approved already.
His office recently suggested, in its bulletin, that parishes and dioceses begin to catechize people on the coming changes. He suggested several ways to do so:
Pastors can take several snippets of text about the changes at a time to place in their bulletins. They can also excerpt reasons why there is a new translation from the U.S. bishop’s website, USCCB.org (first, choose “Church Life & Ministries,” then “Liturgy,” followed by “Roman Missal Formation”).
Msgr. Sherman also hoped that priests would look over the revised order of the Mass and practice reading out loud. The cadence is different, as are some of the words, he said.
“When this missal finally appears in the parish and people have cards in their hands with the (revised) responses in front of them, our hope is that it won’t be the first time they have seen this,” he said.
There are other ways to get the word out.
For instance, in the Archdiocese of Hartford, Conn., the Office of Divine Worship plans to have Msgr. Sherman speak at a workshop for clergy, deacons and lay leaders in March 2010, said Father David Baranowski, the office’s director.
‘Prepare Hearts and Souls’
Other plans include organizing small group discussions and releasing catechetical materials from groups such as the Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions to people serving in the Church, such as extraordinary ministers of holy Communion and parish liturgy committees, Father Baranowski said.
“If done right, (the new translations) can have a positive effect on the life of the Church here in the United States,” he said. “If we fumble the ball, this can say to lots of people, ‘The Church is always changing, but so what.’ I think this has the possibility for helping people understand the Eucharist better and appreciating it better and hopefully be able to pray better.”
Father Baranowski wants to emphasize to people that the words are not the only thing that will change.
“This is not just a change of texts, but a change of hearts,” he said. “Ask people to be more committed to the celebration of the Eucharist now that we can look at the (revised) texts, and we have the leisure to do that in advance of their actual usage.”
The people who went to church after the changes of the Second Vatican Council did not have time to prepare, said Benedictine Sister Sharon Marie Stola, director of the Divine Worship Office for the Diocese of Joliet, Ill.
“We don’t want to lose this opportunity” to evangelize, she said, and that opportunity is for people to “concentrate on the Eucharist and a deeper understanding of the Eucharist.”
Msgr. Sherman said there will be people who resist the changes, but he added that “there is no translation in the world that is perfect.” It is important for the faithful to be open to “the movement of the Spirit,” he said.
“Now is the time to begin to prepare our hearts and souls to open up our minds and our hearts to the richness that can be found there if people would give it a chance,” he said.
Making the Effort
One such person who is open to that is Tracy Cefaratti, a parishioner in Hinsdale, Ill. She said she has not heard of any of the new revisions, but she will make an effort to understand it.
“I’m at the place in my faith where I’m always trying to get the most out of Mass, so I would want to understand it,” she said.
She said catechizing people early enough so that they understand the changes is vital.
“I think if people understood the changes and it’s explained to them, they’ll embrace it better than if they are told to do it this different way and they don’t know why,” she said.
Even if she does not agree with some of the changes, she said she will still make the effort to understand why a part of the text was changed.
Said Cefaratti, “I will just trust.”
Liturgy ping!
I’m not saying anything. I could, but I’m not.
I’m gonna barf
I thought it was going to be another Obeyme thread with a response of “praise be obama”. Thank God.
> “And with your spirit,” she says. It used to be: “And also with you,” just as at Mass.
Sorry. I’m too tired to “change”. “Peace be with you” is good and sincere enough.
There have been many times that I’ve gone reluctantly to Mass. I would have to be pushed and prodded and have a more than a little guilt thrown on me by my wife to get me to go. My excuses were countless but in most cases it was simple laziness.
Yet when we were all standing and the priest opened his arms and said, “Peace be with you” and we responded “And also with you” the desire to be back home in bed melted away. There was, and is, a simple goodness in the moment. The air felt cool and crisp life was as it ought to be.
I guess there is no way out of these changes. I just don’t know why The Church feels the need to fix something that is not broken.
Why?
Go ahead. Express yourself. Have some courage!
> I guess there is no way out of these changes. I just don’t know why The Church feels the need to fix something that is not broken.
Bingo! It was a non-story to begin with. “And also with you” is more genuine than “and with your spirit”?! On another note, I also agree with you that heading to Sunday mass is often times “dragging” but I do sometimes attend Saturday night mass which qualifies for the Sunday mass.
I am well familiar with that feeling. For several years, it was a struggle because it meant confronting the priest to prevent him from commiting liturgical abuse. My stomach would be tied in a knot as I drove to church.
It is important, however, to understand just what is happening at the Mass, be it the Novus Ordo or the TLM. Take a few minutes to visit this site. You will shed any trepidation the next time you attend Mass.
The Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - A Primer for Clueless Catholics. It is in several parts which all deserve some serious reflection.
“I just don’t know why The Church feels the need to fix something that is not broken.”
Unfortunately it is broken. For the past several decades the current ambiguous, faulty, and inaccurate translation has damaged the understanding of the Mass and of Catholic belief.
It is an overdue change which I hope will correct the errors rammed down our throats by the liberals back in 1969.
I have never been completely comfortable attending an English Mass and I hope that these changes have been made without the input of the heretical/radical liberals so ubiquitous in today’s Church.
Thank you so much for the link. Great! Not “boring’ at all.
I get really annoyed now in mass when couples can’t keep their hands off each other, kids are not able to sit though one hour without talking, poking each other etc and parents think this is fine ( I understand every kid is gonna goof up sometimes..), people look around, chomp and look clueless when they come from communion...and often just rush right out the door with a ‘glad THAT”S over” look.
Is it me? am I being too judgemental? should I be glad that at least they are at mass ( which I am).
Try attending an evening mass. I don’t know why, and it may just be me, but the Sat. eve mass is always more tranquil, (for lack of a better word) than those on Sun. morn.
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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment
Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”
But it is a mistranslation, and the Latin rite has been saying "and with your spirit" for more than a millenium at least. The Latin says:
Pax vobiscum. Et cum spiritu tuo.
I for one and glad to be returning to a proper translation and the venerable language.
To each his own.
Latin Mass ping. This only gets worse when the church libs are in charge. Pray for the Pope to pull the plug.
>>Bingo! It was a non-story to begin with. “And also with you” is more genuine than “and with your spirit”?! <<
Bingo, it should have never been changed in the first place.
P: Dòminus vobìscum
C: Et cum spiritu tuo.
It’s not “And also with you.” and should have never been translated that way.
I will not attend one even after these changes. Not due to the vernacular per se, but rather to avoid the feeling of complicitness in the destruction of the Holy Mass, which the ecumenists and liberals so cleverly put into motion following Vatican II.
>>am I being too judgemental? should I be glad that at least they are at mass ( which I am).<<
No. You are not.
I tire of the “At least they’re there” excuse. because they are not. Their bodies are there.
It’s time we started to get people to understand that we are asked for ONE hour a week. ONE hour. Hold still, stop texting, playing PS3s, sipping water, and feeding your kids. Jesus is there, right there, on the Altar.
If your parent was in a nursing home couldn’t you give him/her an hour a week? Afterall, Christ was ONLY nailed to a cross for three hours for you. These people should get on their big kid undies and suck it up for Jesus.
Just my rant for the day.
>>To each his own.<<
Yeah, that’s the problem. Every feel good liturgist wants it, “to each his own” when we should be able to walk into a Catholic Church in any city in the US and see the same Holy Mass.
You know what Mother Angelica said, “Electric Church. Every time you walk in you get a shock”
Gee I thought that was what we had before this change. I've been to masses all over the U.S. and when the Priest said, "Peace be with you" in not one place did anybody say, "Yeah right".
As a convert, I came to the new Mass translation (which was also foisted on the Episcopal Church at about the same time) with the magnificent English of Cranmer's Prayer Book ringing in my head.
Compare and contrast:
Priest. Lift up your hearts.
Answer. We lift them up unto the Lord.
Priest. Let us give thanks unto our Lord God.
Answer. It is meet and right so to do.
Then shall the Priest turn to the Holy Table, and say,
IT is very meet, right, and our bounden duty, that we should at all times, and in all places, give thanks unto thee,O Lord, Holy Father, Almighty, Everlasting God.
BUT chiefly are we bound to praise thee for the glorious Resurrection of thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord: for he is the very Paschal Lamb, which was offered for us, and hath taken away the sin of the world; who by his death hath destroyed death, and by his rising to life again hath restored to us everlasting life.
THEREFORE with Angels and Archangels, and with all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify thy glorious Name; evermore praising thee, and saying,
HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, Lord God of hosts, Heaven and earth are full of thy glory: Glory be to thee, O Lord Most High. Amen.
It's a good thing I was serious about the Church being the One True Church, or I never could have tolerated the liturgy!
Or the ad-libbing by well-intentioned priests during the Consecration?
The English Mass CAN be said well and reverently. But the language and rhythm are a stumbling block rather than an aid.
thanks, I needed that.
I have gone to some masses where the majority is poor hispanic. while the infants may cry, there is a much more reverant tone.
Maybe its just the entitled, child focused bunch that parent by incessant rewards, ie bribes. Hate to see what happens to these spoiled kids if a depression hits. They will probably throw a major violent temper tantrum.
>>”Peace be with you” in not one place did anybody say, “Yeah right”. <<
Gee that’s kind of funny because we do A LOT of camping all over the US. I’ve been in parishes from upper MI down to FL. I’ve heard tons of different responses, and innovations. From the “Jesus Prince of Peace” instead of “Lamb of God”, using “God” instead of Father and “for all of us” instead of “for all men”
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if some looney liturgist didn’t think “Yeah right” wasn’t just peachie.
This will put a stop to it. A concrete Missal is what we need to stop the sloppy broadway productions the Holy Mass has become.
>>thanks, I needed that.<<
No problem my FRiend.
But we need to Pray, Pray, Pray for these people. That they will be enlightened to WHO they are going to see in that church.
It’s not each other.
ping : )
At 4 PM vigil Mass, there tends to be a more senior crowd who have more respect to attendance of the Mass. The only exception to that, at least at my Church, if you get there early, they all know each other and talk rather loudly socializing until Mass begins.
In fact, every other version that I can read has been using "and with thy spirit" all along. It's only the English that has been so grossly mistranslated.
German: "und mit Deinem Geiste"
Spanish: "Y con tu espíritu"
French: "Et avec votre esprit"
Italian: "E con il tuo spirito"
Everybody else managed to translate the Latin correctly. And saying that 'well, they're romance languages' won't wash, because the Germans did too.
I don’t attend an NO Mass, but I hope they have corrected (during the breaking of the bread) the translation of “I shall be healed” to the “my soul shall be healed”. That has always irked me.
I know that in the NO Latin it is correct:
Dòmine, non sum dignus, ut intres
sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic
verbo et sanàbitur ànima mea.
If anybody wants some variety from Gregorian Chant, I can highly recommend Anglican Chant, which is usually chanted in four or six parts and is quite adaptable since it has a reciting tone in each phrase. You can sing anything in Anglican Chant -- including a portion of the old British Highway Code pertaining to pedestrians.
I'm not kidding. "The Highway Code" by the Master Singers was a smash hit in 1966, the flip side was "The Weather Report" and a Gilbert & Sullivan parody of the highway code. It includes one of my favorite Anglican Chants, beginning at "always use subways" (that's Brit-speak for pedestrian underpasses), which is usually used for Ps. 22 ("My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?")
The part in the middle about buses and trams shows that you can put a paragraph or more into a reciting tone, no problem.
Vibrato is completely antithetical to the "English sound", at least in the treble and alto, it's just the way it is. Choirboy sound I'm sure is the origin of it.
Get way up in your head voice and get the sound up in the top of your head and away from your throat. You won't get the volume you get with a wide open vibrato, but on the other hand with the straight tone you don't NEED the volume -- a straight tone penetrates and carries much better because it stays on pitch.
I have a true contralto voice with a very dark tone, when my music director wants to make fun of me he calls me a "Heldentenor". It's not easy for me to sing a straight tone, but it CAN be done.
Oh, OCP will be around. They’ll find something equally banal and horridly written to replace it. They don’t know any better.
Well, if we can just knock them off their current position as the leaders in Catholic “music”, that will be a good start.
ALL RIGHT DAMMIT. I became a convert Catholic 30 years ago because the Catholic church stood on it’s beliefs and didn’t waver. I got so sick of protestant religions swawing with public opionin, for gay preachers, and all the other rot gut garbage. The Catholic church stood for something and that was that. Like the Marine Corp, it doesn’t waver. So far my parrish has not become a bunch of limp wristed weenies, but if they do, I am gone. I count on my church on being a rock, not a piece of pasta that sways with popular culture. I am so tired of my values being undermined by my government and by liberals who can’t leave well enough alone.
But if we keep writing to them and asking them to implement it WILL happen.
My experience — remember the horrible wood cut pictures on the OCP that had obscene images in them? I kept sending OCP emails and asking them to please get in the REAL Catholic art for the covers of their missalettes and song books. The guy who did the horrible woord cut art is gone and we have some sem-good pictures. They still have a ways to come.
Believe me I hammered them with at least one email every two or three months.
Don’t you think the ad-libbing will cease? We can always ask Bishops, especially the newer and more othodox ones, to instruct their priests about this.
Things are swinging back to the right, but we must keep asking for the changes that are more true to the original Vulgate text.
Oops — I forgot Greek text too!
**“This is not just a change of texts, but a change of hearts,”**
Definitely a change in tone. I can hardly wait.
go back to Latin...
yep, I seem to notice Jesus is at the center of things....that’s why I participate and pay attention.
;^)
as for the changes.....here we go again.......every Bible translates things a little differently.....and we Catholics have a lot of them as well as the protestants. since the Bible was not originally written in Latin....I find the changes silly. greek to latin to english.....like it can be perfect?
I’m glad of the change. They are putting it back to the way it should be. The novus ordo was supposed to be a translation from the Latin to the vernacular. “Et cum spiritu tuo” translates into “and with your spirit”. It’s the way it should have been in the first place. I’m glad it’s finally being made right.
Dittos
In Germany they actually say; "Und mit deinem Geiste"
"And with your spirit (ghost).
Also they are starting to sing the "Agnus Dei" and "Sanctus" in Latin more often in my parish.
of course not perfect, but much BETTER, as those much more knowledgeable than i, including anamericanmother, have pointed out on this thread. AAM, as a convert, is one of the most knowledgeable Catholics i know, and i always enjoy learning from her : )
The ad-libbing will stop as the younger priests come up through the ranks. At this point, even in this archdiocese, where everything is done by the book at the Cathedral, most of the parishes don't recognize Divine Mercy Sunday or treat Corpus Christi as anything other than a regular Sunday. It'll take a while.
And in the Sanctus, it's "Lord, God of Hosts" not "God of power and might". The Gloria changes in a lot of places, too.
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