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Eight myths about the Bible
Norfolk LDS Church Examiner ^ | June 22 | Greg West

Posted on 06/22/2009 7:01:44 PM PDT by delacoert

Latter-day Saints love the Bible and believe it as scripture. Indeed, Joseph Smith went so far as to say that we are the only people who truly believe it as it is written. Modern, sectarian Christians hang Bible verses like ornaments on an artificial tree constructed of man-made creeds, ignoring the passages which conflict with or contradict their doctrines. In the process, they have allowed a number of myths about the Bible to be promulgated because it serves their own ends. The following eight myths are summarized from "Here We Stand" by Joseph Fielding McConkie (1995, Deseret Book) McConkie is a professor of ancient scripture at Brigham Young University.

1. The Bible is a single book

McConkie points out that the Bible is a collection of books which were gathered together by men over thousands of years. The Jewish Bible consists of 24 books that Christians call the Old Testament. The actual books that are agreed upon by Jews came from a council in 90 A.D. in Jamnia (near Joppa, Israel). At his council, it became so contentious that it resulted in bloodshed. (McConkie, 36)

Christians have divided these 24 books into 39 and ordered them differently. Their version of the Old Testament comes from the Greek Septuagint, which was rejected by Jews, because of the influence of Greek thought and the inclusion of the Apocrypha. Catholics accept the Apocrypha as scripture because they sustain otherwise unscriptural doctrines, such as masses for the dead and the existence of Purgatory. (McConkie, 37-38)

The origin of the New Testament begins with two second-century heretics. Marcion, a bishop's son and a wealthy ship owner, was the first to create a canonical list of books. His list rejected the Old Testament entirely as scripture and "was closed to all but ten of the epistles of Paul and the Gospel of Luke." Macrion's false teachings caused him to be excommunicated from the ancient Church. Macrion's excommunication was so final that the Church gave him back all the money he had donated.(McConkie, 38)

The second "heretic" was Montanus who declared that he was the incarnation of the Holy Ghost promised by the Savior to come. He denounced the absence of revelation in the church and the lack of spiritual gifts. To counteract his claims, the church began to teach that there would be no further disruptive revelations and that the canon of scripture was closed.

Over the next two centuries, Origen of Alexandria divided the books in his New Testament into classes of acknowledged books and disputed texts. The list of disputed books included James, 2nd and 3rd John, 2nd Peter, Jude, the Letter of Barnabas, and the Shepherd of Hermas. This constituted the oldest Greek manuscript, consisting of 29 books. (McConkie, 39)

Eusebius of Caesaria omitted not only the Shepherd and Barnabas from his list, but also the Book of Revelation. Most Greek manuscripts omit it also. Other disputed books which Eusebius rejected were the Acts of Paul, the Revelation of Peter, and the Teachings of the Apostles. (McConkie, 39)

In 367 A.D., Athanasius sent an Easter letter to the churches of his diocese, listing the books approved for reading in the church. This list matches the current-day New Testament. Thus it wasn't until the fourth century that there was any consensus on which books comprised the Bible.

2. The Bible preceded doctrine

Since the Bible didn't exist in its current form in the time of the Bible, how did it then form the basis for the doctrines taught by Jesus, Peter, Paul and the other apostles? "The book was created by the church, not the church by the book." (McConkie, 40) An example of doctrine preceding the Bible would be the Nicene Creed, which was devised by a council in 325 A.D. The doctrine of the Trinity emerged from this council, which took place after the church had declared that revelation had ceased, but before the time that the canon of the Bible was agreed upon. (McConkie, 41)

3. True religion is Bible religion

Since the Bible didn't exist in the time of Peter and Paul. "No one who lived within the time period of the Bible ever had a Bible." (McConkie, 41) Therefore, their religion was not "Bible religion." The Bible is the testimony that God interacts with man via revelation and spiritual gifts, directly and personally. It was not based solely upon the words of God to ancient prophets, but to living ones. Why should it not be so today?

4. Everything in the Bible is the Word of God

The Bible is the word of God so far as it is translated correctly, but every word in it was not uttered by God. The Bible contains the words of the devil to Adam and Eve in the Garden and to Jesus Christ during his temptation in the wilderness. It contains the words of Adam, Eve, a serpent, angels, prophets, apostles, and their scribes. It even contains the words spoken by Balaam's mule, who chastened him for his cruel treatment. All these are in addition to the words of God spoken to prophets and the words of Jesus Christ himself. (McConkie, 43)

5. The canon is closed 

Nowhere in the books of the Bible does it say that the canon of scripture is closed. Many will refer to the last lines of Revelation to claim that the book cannot be added to. Since the Bible didn't exist at the time of the writing of the Revelation of John, it couldn't refer to the Bible as a whole. The Revelation remained a disputed book for two centuries after John penned it. Thus the commandment that it should not be added to must refer to that particular scroll which John wrote. We should understand that most scholars believe that John himself "added to" the Bible, because it is commonly believed that he wrote Revelation before the Gospel of John. The Gospel of John came AFTER the book of Revelation in the chronological sequence of Bible texts. The apostle John told us that "...there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one...that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written."

A similar interdiction against adding to God's word appears in Deuteronomy. Following the logic of those who say the Bible can't be added to because of John's statement, we must consider tossing anything that comes after Moses and Deuteronomy. Man's rejection of further revelation is an attempt to "mute" God and deny that he has power to reveal anything new or essential to mankind. It defends the status quo, having a "form of godliness" but denies the power thereof. Since the Bible itself doesn't claim to contain all God's words, it would require a revelation from God to tell us that the Bible is inerrant, sufficient, persipicacious, and the final authority in all things. Thus, you can see the quandary: it would require a revelation to tell us that there will be no more revelation. The position is logically untenable.

6. The Bible can be interpreted independent of a predetermined ideology

McConkie poses a hypothetical situation. Suppose an angel took a copy of the Bible to a people who had no knowledge of it whatsoever and had no predetermined views on its contents. Suppose they built up a church using the Bible as their guide. Can we realistically imagine that they would, using the Bible alone, come up with anything remotely resembling the doctrine of the Trinity? Neither can we imagine that they would come up with a doctrine that one is saved solely by God's grace, without the requirement of faith and obedience to the commandments of God and the ordinances. (McConkie, 50)

The Bible doesn't clearly explain how to baptize, who can perform the ordinance, and at what age the ordinance the ordinance can take place. It doesn't explain the duties of bishops, deacons, and elders and what are the limits of their ecclesiastical authority.

Thus everyone, including Mormons, must interpret the Bible through an ideological lens. The lens the Jew uses is different than the Christian. The historian will use a different lens altogether. The Mormon's view must necessarily differ from that of Jews, the Christians, and the historian. This realization is important, because we must understand that, without modern day revelation to guide us, one Bible interpretation is no more authoritative than another. The restoration of the Gospel, the First Vision, the Book of Mormon, all provide additional light and knowledge that give us the keys to interpret the Bible correctly.

Without revelation, it would be impossible to determine whose interpretation is correct, because each interpretation will be influenced by the world view of its proponents. The same scriptures that convince a Jew that it is unlawful to turn on a light switch on the Sabbath day also convince him that Jesus couldn't have been the Messiah. (McConkie, 48) The same Bible that convinces Christians to proclaim an end to revelation and miracles also led a young Joseph Smith to "ask of God" and receive a glorious vision of the Father and the Son.

7. To know the Bible is to understand it

The Bible is probably the most misquoted book in existence. Paul is probably the most misquoted person ever. The Bible was written by living oracles of God to people who were accustomed to and accepting of the principle of contemporary revelation from God. The counsel and guidance the apostles gave were to people who had a shared understanding. It makes no sense to preach grace to those who haven't repented, been baptized,and had a remission of their sins. It doesn't add up to teach about spiritual gifts and the fruits of the spirit to those who have no right to them. The scriptures don't ask the reader to accept Christ as a personal Savior or to make a committment for Christ, because it is addressed to those who had already accepted Christ by covenant. (McConkie, 53)

The cafeteria-style doctrinal approach of contemporary Christian churches is the result of their rejection of modern revelation as a possibility. Without revelation to guide, one must try to cobble together some theology by picking and choosing what fits into one's world view and reject the rest as "metaphors" or "symbolism." (McConkie, 54)

8. The Bible is common ground in missionary work

This statement applies especially to Latter-day Saints. We often assume that the Bible is the common ground from which we can build understanding. If there was any semblance of agreement in modern Christianity, do you think there would be a thousand quarelling sects and denominations? (McConkie, 54) Joseph Smith went into the grove to pray because he came to the conclusion that it was impossible to find out which Church he should join by studying the Bible alone. This is a true statement.

In this "war of words" and "contest of opinions" that rages in Christendom, the only way to find the truth is to "ask of God." (James 1:5) Thus the Book of Mormon becomes the preeminent tool for conversion. It offers clear and plain gospel teachings free of sectarian interpretations. It clarifies the Bible's teachings and helps identify the interpolations of men. It also identifies to the sincere seeker, where and how to locate the conduit of personal revelation for himself, independent of anyone or anything else.

Latter-day Saints will be more effective by teaching the gospel from the Book of Mormon than from any other source. We should encourage all interested parties to seek truth in prayer and from the Book of Mormon. Finding the truth in this manner identifies the means of obtaining personal revelation, the source of restored authority, how to obtain the ordinances of salvation, and how to live in such a manner as to obtain and keep a remission of one's sins.


TOPICS: Humor; Other non-Christian
KEYWORDS: antimormonthread; bible; doctrine; falseprophets; gospel; gregwest; heresy; heretics; lds; mormon; myths
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To: ejonesie22

LDS was not needed...


281 posted on 06/24/2009 7:12:04 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: TheDon
...how would you respond?

Yes.


And if two demonic imposters show up I'll tell them to get lost - but that would be redundant.

282 posted on 06/24/2009 7:14:07 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Diego1618
You haven't specifically identified my error in that post.....but, I'm waiting.

Yes I have.

283 posted on 06/24/2009 7:15:09 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Diego1618
God's laws are eternal and made for all mankind [Mark 2:27].

I've think I've got the root of your problem:

Acts 15
Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 
This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 
The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how  the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 
When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them. 
Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." 
The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 
After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that  the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 
God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 
 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." 
The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among  the Gentiles through them. 
 When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 
Simon  has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 
The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: 
 " 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, 
that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things' [fn] 
 that have been known for ages.
"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for  the Gentiles  who are turning to God. 
Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 
For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." 
 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 
With them they sent the following letter:
 
The apostles and elders, your brothers, To  the Gentiles believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 
 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 
So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul- 
 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 
Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. 
 
The men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 
 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 
Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers. 
After spending some time there, they were sent off by the brothers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them.
  
 But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord. 
 Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us go back and visit the brothers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing." 
 Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 
 but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 
 They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus,  
 but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord. 
He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

284 posted on 06/24/2009 7:23:25 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
Same here my friend. Everyone who think the sabbath of the Lord has been "done away" with or transferred is simply following Catholic teaching and not bible facts.
Speaking of FACTS: which ones did the PRESBYTERIANS ignore to earn the claim from JS that he had learned that PRESBYTERIANism was UNTRUE?

JS = Joseph Smith?? I'm assuming this is a rhetorical question...

285 posted on 06/24/2009 7:28:05 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Elsie; Diego1618
"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

Your interpretation of these verses is illogical. Taken to its logical conclusion you would have to say that gentiles were free to steal, kill, covet and commit any other sin not specifically listed here. Clearly MORE was expected of gentile Christians than just these.

The last sentence is the one that's germane. The list was for starters. These were the practices most prevalent in pagan worship. The council decided that they should stop these thing right away and they would learn the rest as the scriptures were read to them EVERY SABBATH.

286 posted on 06/24/2009 7:36:34 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Elsie; DouglasKC
I've think I've got the root of your problem: Acts 15

I'm amazed that folks use [Acts 15] as an example of the dissolution of the Sabbath and other things by the Jerusalem Council.

Consider: What do the first two verses address as the Problem? And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. What question (singular)? CIRCUMCISION!

Now.....you gotta ask yourself this question. What in the world did circumcision have to do with the manner of Moses? Wasn't the circumcision covenant with Abraham? Why were these men (brethren) from the Jerusalem church concerned about circumcision and the "Custom" of Moses?

The Greek tells us that the word "ETHEI" is the one used for "Custom"....or "Manner" in some translations. The root word "ETHOS" is used also to denote various commands from the Law of Moses in scripture. Examples are: [Luke 2:42][Acts 6:14] & [21:21]. Here is the circumcision command found in the Law of Moses:

[Leviticus 12:1] 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. 3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Well.....this certainly wasn't a big problem as all of the Apostles had already been circumcised as Jewish children. But.....the Jews from Jerusalem were evidently not using this scripture as their argument. Instead they were using this one:

[Exodus 12:43-49] 43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: 44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. 46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. 47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. 48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

These "Brethren" from Jerusalem were upset because Paul and Barnabas were allowing "Uncircumcised Gentiles" to observe and participate in the Passover with them. And they thought that in addition to baptism these Gentile males must also be circumcised to partake of The Lord's sacrifice at Passover. This would then allow them (the Gentiles) to become part of the covenant people of Israel and no longer be considered strangers (Gentile).

Now....let's go back and look again at verse 2: 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. The word "question" here in the Greek is "ZETAMATOS". It is a Greek noun, sometimes translated as "Issue" and it is being used in the singular! Circumcision was the only issue that brought Paul and Barnabas to Jerusalem.....and it was the only issue that was discussed at the council. The entire Law of Moses was not the issue in question.....at Antioch.....or Jerusalem!

When Paul spoke at the council he was rebutted by some Pharisees who thought that circumcision was still necessary (verses 4-5). The Pharisees were not advocating that the Gentiles had to keep the entire Law of Moses. Unfortunately some translations give this impression. If you translate verse 5 literally this is what comes out: "It is necessary to circumcise them to instruct and to keep the Law of Moses". The Pharisees therefore believed that by submitting to circumcision a dual purpose would be satisfied. One, education of the Law of Moses.....and to keep the Law of Moses with regards to Passover [Exodus 12:43-49].

This is one more place in scripture which shows the Early Church still observing God's Festivals (Passover) and Sabbaths.

In verses 6-7 they considered the question....and then Peter got up and recalled the Holy Spirit descending upon Cornelius.....an uncircumcised Gentile. So, after hearing both sides of a heated discussion Peter asks: "Why do you test God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

What was this yoke? It was adult male circumcision! Peter was telling the council that the Jews themselves were unable to endure this rite as adult males. They were not physically able themselves to submit to circumcision. Let's look at [Genesis 34:24-26] 24 And unto Hamor and unto Shechem his son hearkened all that went out of the gate of his city; and every male was circumcised, all that went out of the gate of his city. 25 And it came to pass on the third day, when they were sore, that two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brethren, took each man his sword, and came upon the city boldly, and slew all the males. 26 And they slew Hamor and Shechem his son with the edge of the sword, and took Dinah out of Shechem's house, and went out. Simeon and Levi slew all the males of the city. They couldn't defend themselves as they were in so much pain. It was traumatic and debilitating for adult males to undergo circumcision! This was the yoke that Peter spoke of. Peter finishes by stipulating it is through grace that we are saved.....just as they are (verse 11).

Then Paul and Barnabas again spoke recounting all the miracles and wonders that God has worked through them for the Gentiles. They pointed out that these things were all done without submitting to circumcision.

Now....this is what James says: [Acts 15:13-18] 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. He quotes the prophet Amos (verses 16-17) but here is the entire prophecy in context: [Amos 9:8-15] 8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD. 9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. 10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us. 11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. 13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

This is a Messianic prophecy and James has clearly indicated that he realizes that these "Gentiles" coming to faith in Jesus are among the ones that have been scattered among the Gentiles mentioned in verse 9. And he says in verse 19 of Acts that he believes that we should not trouble those among the Gentiles who are turning to God but will write to them about abstaining from things polluted by idols, from sexual immortality and from things strangled and from blood.

Why did James announce these four things? Eating food sacrificed to idols; Sexual immorality; Eating the meat of strangled animals; Eating blood. These are all things found in Mosaic Law and are referred to as "Halakah"....which literally means, "the path that one walks". Each of these requirements are to be found in the Law regarding strangers among us....those who desired to live among the Israelites. They can all be found in the 17th and 18th chapters of Leviticus. James is defining the path that these Gentiles should walk in order to be counted among the Jews.

The entire Law of Moses was never the subject of the Jerusalem council (A.D. 49)....only the subject of circumcision of adult male converts. James finishes up by stating that Moses is read every Sabbath anyway.....so he answers the Pharisee's earlier question about keeping the Law of Moses, indicating they (the Gentiles) would learn about Moses by attending Sabbath services, and if they truly became converted they would have knowledge of the Law by their simple attendance.

These newly converted Gentiles would then realize that they should indeed circumcise their 8 day old infant boys, but they themselves would not have to undergo this procedure....this yoke.

287 posted on 06/24/2009 10:46:01 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618
God's laws are eternal and made for all mankind [Mark 2:27].


Acts 15
 
Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 
This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 
The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how  the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 
When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them. 
Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." 
The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 
After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that  the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 
God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 
 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." 
The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among  the Gentiles through them. 
 When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 
Simon  has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 
The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: 
 " 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, 
that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things' [fn] 
 that have been known for ages.
"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for  the Gentiles  who are turning to God. 
Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 
For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." 
 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 
With them they sent the following letter:
 
The apostles and elders, your brothers, To  the Gentiles believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 
 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 
So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul- 
 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 
Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. 
 
The men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 
 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 
Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers. 
After spending some time there, they were sent off by the brothers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them.
  
 But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord. 
 Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us go back and visit the brothers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing." 
 Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 
 but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 
 They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus,  
 but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord. 
He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

288 posted on 06/25/2009 5:19:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DouglasKC
I'm assuming this is a rhetorical question...

You assume wrongly.

289 posted on 06/25/2009 5:22:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DouglasKC
Clearly MORE was expected of gentile Christians than just these.

Why can you NOT agree with what Scripture SAYS?

WHY does you claim that I am INTERPRETING it?

290 posted on 06/25/2009 5:23:43 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Diego1618
The THIS QUESTION was answered, and then the whole LAW thing was shown for what it was:

"a yoke that even our FOREfathers were not able to bear".


'Interpret' this:

All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.


'Interpret' this:

Rom 3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

291 posted on 06/25/2009 5:31:13 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Ooops

sorry for the double post.

I should not sleep for a while and not check what I’ve already posted.


292 posted on 06/25/2009 5:32:20 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
Clearly MORE was expected of gentile Christians than just these. Why can you NOT agree with what Scripture SAYS? WHY does you claim that I am INTERPRETING it?

Because you are. You're looking at it through the prism of culture and history. You're bringing a bias to it that you don't recognize or acknowledge. I read those exact same words and nowhere do I see or read "You no longer have to keep the sabbath". Those words don't exist. Whether or not to keep the Lord's sabbath isn't even an issue in the bible. It's a given that people did. It is a biblical command from the Lord observed by the Lord's people.

293 posted on 06/25/2009 7:03:58 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: TheDon; Ruy Dias de Bivar
It appears my question is not easy for you to answer. Let me try asking it another way. If you were walking along the road to Damascus with Saul, the Saul from Acts, and Jesus appeared and told you that you were called to be a witness for Him, how would you respond?

Well, if it really happened, I'd at least accurately recall:
#1 The age I was (Depending upon which version you read, Smith handwrote he was "in the 16th year of my age" vs. other versions where he was "about 14" (two mention this)...the first published version by Orson Pratt in 1840 says he was "about 14 or 15")
#2 If a pillar of light appeared to me [a couple of the versions don't mention that]
#3 How many personages appeared to me [three of the versions mention only a single personage...his 1830 version doesn't mention two...his 1832 version only says "The Lord"...his 1835 version talks about a "visitation of angels"]
#4 If he or they identified himself/themselves -- or fail to do so [In Joseph's case -- was there a "father" personage there? Only one of the half-dozen or so versions I checked mentioned that...the official version...how curious is that? And even here, this "father" never identifies himself as God]
#5 If it was more than one, did that one also identify or fail to ID itself/himself? [In Joseph's case -- was there a "son" personage present? Surprisingly a few of Smith's versions actually don't mention a "son" personage as being present...his 1830 version doesn't...his 1835 version doesn't...and a third version mentions a second personage without reference to him being a "son" identifier...In fact, the name "Jesus" is never used...the closest reference is his 1832 version where he says "the Lord"]
#6 And I'd also accurately recall if I asked these beings any question(s) [Smith? Well, the "official" version says he does. But in 4 of the other versions, no, he doesn't ask any questions -- and in a fifth version, an "angel" answers him -- as he doesn't even mention any father-son combo in that version...In fact, this Nov. 9, 1835 journal version of Smith's is his first written copy...in this one, neither personage is id'd ]

The problem is, TheDon, is this you put this Q as a "first-person" Q when the only way we as "jury members" who weren't at the scene-of-the-crime can properly evaluate it is to compare the alleged witness' conflicting statements.

I dare Lds. Get ALL of the First Vision Accounts together & compare them for these six distinct discrepancies mentioned above.

I believe there's also a 7th First Vision version I didn't reference...plus several of the Lds ensuing "prophets" commented on what they recollected hearing directly from Joseph Smith which focus only on angels -- no other personages appearing to him.

294 posted on 06/25/2009 7:25:04 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
I dare Lds. Get ALL of the First Vision Accounts together & compare them for these six distinct discrepancies mentioned above.

That's a great idea! Oh wait, it's already been done. :-)

Even the different accounts of the apostle Paul's first vision in the NT are not harmonized. And all the different accounts given, considering his long missionary service, have been lost to time. Poor Stephen only lived long enough to give one account of his first vision of Jesus Christ and God the Father. Those who didn't believe him killed him on the spot.

295 posted on 06/25/2009 7:41:18 AM PDT by TheDon
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To: DouglasKC

Why can you NOT agree with what Scripture SAYS?


296 posted on 06/25/2009 7:42:46 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: TheDon

If you were walking along the road to Damascus with Saul, the Saul from Acts, and Jesus appeared and told you that you were called to be a witness for Him, how would you respond?
_____________________________________________

That would never never happen...

Those with Paul were never called to be a witness for Him...

And nor was Paul...in the first account of the story...

the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. Acts 9:6

And they heard what Paul heard...

But Jesus did not “appear” to any of them...

there shined round about him a light from heaven: Acts 9:3

And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. Acts 9:7

Later Paul told King Agrippa that, after Jesus had knocked him off his horse and blinded him for 3 days...He said to him..

Acts 26:16 “... I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

Act 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. Acts 26:16

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Joey never told anyone about his “vision” not commenced to preach, but instead stole a sheep on the way home...

However, Joey Smith was somewhat the same as Paul in his attitude towards the Christians..

Paul was “exceedingly mad against them,” Acts 26:11

Joey was mad at the Presbyterian Church for some real or imagined slight or other ..

It could have been a young Presbyterian girl spurned him or the Presbyterian minister told him he had to change his ways..

So you may be partly right when you suggest his experience was like Paul’s..

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. Acts 9:1, 2


297 posted on 06/25/2009 8:10:15 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Elsie; DouglasKC
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

Is that why the Apostle John says this......years later? [I John 5:1-3] 1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Grievous: 926. barus (bar-ooce') burdensome, grave grievous, heavy, weightier.

298 posted on 06/25/2009 8:25:22 AM PDT by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

You are finally getting it!

Mat 22:35-43 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

299 posted on 06/25/2009 9:19:26 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: lurk

Excellent summary.


300 posted on 06/25/2009 9:27:11 AM PDT by Hat-Trick (Do you trust a government that cannot trust you with guns?)
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