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Vatican Official: Church Erred in Holding Kennedy Funeral
Politics Daily ^ | September 24, 2009 | David Gibson

Posted on 09/24/2009 2:24:26 PM PDT by NYer

Edited on 09/24/2009 7:57:03 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

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The tug-of-war over Ted Kennedy's soul seems to be eternal.

In a speech last Friday night to a gathering of Catholic conservatives at the Mayflower Hotel in Washington, an outspoken American archbishop now heading the Vatican version of the church's Supreme Court said that politicians who support gay marriage or abortion rights cannot receive sacraments without publicly repenting their ways:

"It is not possible to be a practicing Catholic and to conduct oneself in this manner," said Archbishop Raymond L. Burke, whom the pope transferred to Rome in 2008 after Burke's often-stormy tenure as archbishop of St. Louis.

"Neither Holy Communion nor funeral rites should be administered to such politicians," Burke said. "To deny these is not a judgment of the soul, but a recognition of the scandal and its effects."
The remarks come from an account of the 50-minute speech by Deal Hudson, director of InsideCatholic.com, a conservative Web site that hosted the Sept. 18 annual gala for some 200 supporters. (Among them: American Enterprise Institute President Arthur Brooks, the National Review's Kate O'Bierne, and Ed Whelan, head of the Ethics and Public Policy Center.) Hudson was an adviser to the Bush White House on Catholic issues.

Burke's blast is not exactly a surprise, given his track record of sharp criticism of pro-choice Catholic politicians -- he has said they should be barred from taking Communion and has encouraged ministers who distribute the Eucharist to withhold it on their own initiative. Burke has not been shy about exhorting fellow bishops he sees as too lenient, either, as he did in this March interview with Operation Rescue's Randall Terry. (Burke later regretted that Terry had aired the videotape.) And he is a favorite speaker of Beltway conservatives, having given the keynote at last May's National Catholic Prayer Breakfast.

But for Burke, now a prominent official in the Vatican's judicial system, to -- in effect -- openly oppose the judgment of Boston's Cardinal Sean O'Malley (and most other bishops) regarding sacraments for Kennedy and other Catholic pols, and to, in effect, give aid and comfort to a Catholic right that has stepped up criticism of the hierarchy to fierce levels, is remarkable. Burke did not just say that politicians like Kennedy should not be provided a private funeral; he advocates denying them a funeral Mass at all.

Cardinal O'Malley earlier this month rejected that course of action "in the strongest terms," as he wrote in a blog post that was an unusually blunt response to critics of his decision to allow Kennedy a funeral Mass and to preside at it:

"We will stop the practice of abortion by changing the law, and we will be successful in changing the law if we change people's hearts. We will not change hearts by turning away from people in their time of need and when they are experiencing grief and loss," O'Malley wrote.

"At times, even in the Church, zeal can lead people to issue harsh judgments and impute the worst motives to one another. These attitudes and practices do irreparable damage to the communion of the Church."
In his well-received speech last Friday -- the standing ovation lasted seven minutes -- Burke rejected such an approach.

"We should have the courage to look truth in the eye and call things by their common names." He added that for a politician who support abortion rights and gay rights, for example, to return to the sacraments, "his repentance must also be public."

Burke also rejected concerns that speaking out as he has is fomenting divisions within the church, and at the highest levels.

"The Church's unity is founded on speaking the truth in love. This does not destroy unity but helps to repair a breach in the life of the Church."

Still, Pope Benedict XVI's exchange of letters with Kennedy seemed to indicate a pastoral concern for the dying senator that contrasts with Burke's approach, and few bishops -- from Rome to Boston -- believed Kennedy should have been denied a funeral.

Yet during his Washington visit Burke also appeared on FOX News to denounce the Baucus bill on health care reform as "certainly not acceptable" because he said it provides funding for abortions (that point is disputed). He also said the current proposals threaten a "subtle introduction into health care of euthanasia."

With the apparent push-back on health care reform from the Catholic center, it seems clear there is a struggle for dominance inside the Catholic hierarchy in America, and one that does not appear to be ending anytime soon.


TOPICS: Catholic; Religion & Politics; Worship
KEYWORDS: burke; catholic; catholicpoliticians; kennedy; proaborts; tedkennedy; vatican
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1 posted on 09/24/2009 2:24:26 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 09/24/2009 2:24:52 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: Ann Archy

An excellent of what we were discussing.


3 posted on 09/24/2009 2:26:29 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

Wish there was a way to speak to Teddy in Hell and ask him if it was worth it.


4 posted on 09/24/2009 2:28:32 PM PDT by Hoosier-Daddy ("It does no good to be a super power if you have to worry what the neighbors think." BuffaloJack)
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To: NYer

Ya know, I am new to the Catholic Church, but I am already tired to hindsight judgement on Catholic missteps, i.e this issue, and then there is the Notre Dame speech by Dear Leader, the Church needs to stand on principles BEFORE the fact and action, not after. Just a good way to lose membership.....IMHO


5 posted on 09/24/2009 2:28:55 PM PDT by Citizen Soldier (Just got up from Bedroomshire)
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To: Hoosier-Daddy

Wish there was a way to speak to Teddy in Hell and ask him if it was worth it.

I’m sure Ted is getting on everyone’s nerves down there as well.


6 posted on 09/24/2009 2:35:14 PM PDT by Huskrrrr
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To: NYer
I am sympathetic to the difficulty of refusing to conduct a funeral service for anyone, much less someone with the stature of a Kennedy. Nonetheless, the church's practices have to reflect what it professes to believes. If Kennedy repented of his sins, since his sins were committed publicly, he need to repent of his sins publicly. Too many practices in the church are based upon a false love or emotion. If the church really and genuinely cared about the souls, not only of Kennedy, but also for the congregation, it would have refused Kennedy a Catholic funeral.
7 posted on 09/24/2009 2:36:12 PM PDT by Nosterrex
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To: NYer

it’s much easier to slouch after a test than to stand tall during it.


8 posted on 09/24/2009 2:43:07 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (dear world: we are so sorry for Barack Hussein Obama. Can you ever forgive us? ** hang the Czars.)
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To: NYer
Well, I remember not so many years ago, there was a little matter of a Mob boss here, locally, who was coming to the end of his sojourn here on earth. He approached the Priest of his local parish and wanted a Catholic burial and funeral mass at St. Raf's. Apparently, the the dear Vicar refused in no uncertain terms (assuming he could manage a straight face before he said no). Whereupon the local dealer in good goods and kickback cabbage drew a large, nasty-looking weapon and threatened to separate the Priest from his head.

The Priest remained firm and said, unless you make a complete confession, repent and make restitution, you will NOT have a funeral mass and you will not be buried in sanctified ground. I was young and had not converted at that point, so I can't remember how it turned out. I do know the Priest lived and the Mobster died.

What I cannot recall is anyone receiving a large charitable donation or that the Deviant in question made a good confession. I would have to assume no Priest had enough time to hear the laundry list of offenses. It could have taken months and there's a shortage of priests, you know.

9 posted on 09/24/2009 2:46:41 PM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: NYer

Vatican Official: Church Erred in Holding Kennedy Funeral

barn door open, cows out, etc.

The Kennedy’s got what they wanted, now the church can pretend to regret allowing it as they pocket that extra tithe.


10 posted on 09/24/2009 2:47:13 PM PDT by Muzzle_em (BO STINKS!)
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To: Citizen Soldier
I am new to the Catholic Church

Welcome Home!

I am already tired to hindsight judgement on Catholic missteps

This has been going on for 2000 years ... nothing new. There will always be those two camps who disagree but, as history has proven over and over again throughout the centuries, the Holy Spirit continues to guide the Church through its shepherd.

the Church needs to stand on principles BEFORE the fact and action,

It does but there will always be those who tweak things to suit their own purposes. We have the assurance of Jesus Christ that "the gates of hell will not prevail". So, sit back, relax, and do like we do ... scoff at those who would try to undo the work of God :-)

11 posted on 09/24/2009 2:52:09 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer
But for Burke, now a prominent official in the Vatican's judicial system, to -- in effect -- openly oppose the judgment of Boston's Cardinal Sean O'Malley . . . is remarkable.

For some reason, all I can think of is that cheer we used for a basket in high school basketball:

Burke! Burke!
He's our man!
If he can't do it,
No one can!

:)

12 posted on 09/24/2009 2:53:37 PM PDT by maryz
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To: NYer

I’m sorry RCC, the time to confront this man was while he was alive.

Cowards.


13 posted on 09/24/2009 2:55:12 PM PDT by Lorianne
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To: NYer

If the church were being honest, they would prove it by kicking out the rest of the homopromo abortion loving Democrats from the church.


14 posted on 09/24/2009 2:56:56 PM PDT by aimhigh
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To: NYer
No humanly act or ceremony will have any effect on the Divine Judgment of Senator Kennedy’s soul. The mass held in his honor was for the living. Its purpose was to console, inspire and to educate the living. Unfortunately for Catholics everywhere, it was a learning experience lost.

Unconditional forgiveness serves neither the Church not God. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches us in number 1864 that the only “limit” to His mercy is the hardness of heart of the offender: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin." (Mark 3:29, Matthew 12:32, Luke 12:10) There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.” Forgiveness requires contrition and, on his greatest sin, Kennedy was neither contrite or repentant.

By his own admission Edward Kennedy was a flawed human being. Had his flaws and transgressions been limited to his failed marriage, the events leading up to and immediately following the death of Mary Jo Kopechne, and the rape charges brought against young men under influence, public forgiveness by the Church would be understandable. None of these represent a grave sin.

The church teaches that abortion is a grave sin and that there is a “grave and clear obligation to oppose” civil laws and judicial decisions that “authorize or promote” these acts. While there may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, there is none with regard to abortion. When a person’s formal cooperation becomes manifest, which in the case of a Catholic politician, as his consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion, that person is guilty of a grave sin. Let us not forget that Kennedy:

▪ Was rated 100% by NARAL for his pro-choice voting record

▪ Voted NO on banning human cloning.

▪ Voted NO on banning partial birth abortions.

▪ Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions.

▪ Voted NO on criminal penalties for harming an unborn child during the commission of another crime.

▪ Voted NO on maintaining the ban on military base abortions.

Even if his claims to I have done his best to "champion the rights of the poor, and open doors of economic opportunity, to have worked to welcome the immigrant, to fight discrimination and expand access to health care and education, opposed the death penalty and fought to end war", this does not balance his nearly life long support for the grave evil that is abortion or excuse his complicity in the deaths of millions of innocents.

15 posted on 09/24/2009 3:09:07 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: NYer

Someone better pull this archbishop back in line real fast. The funeral had to have been correct because it was permitted to occur within a Catholic church. The Church would not have made a mistake like this.


16 posted on 09/24/2009 3:21:53 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: aimhigh

There’d be no one left to play the organ or be directors of music. Seriously.


17 posted on 09/24/2009 3:23:09 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: NYer

Burke’s comments are absolutely outrageous and his actions uncanonical. To intrude into the affairs of the Archdiocese of Boston and of the Cardinal, however veiled his comments were, is beyond the pale no matter what one thinks of Kennedy.

The reason Burke was removed from St. Louis was his refusal to abode by the canons prohibiting crossing into the jurisdictions of other hierarchs. Apparently exiling him to a court which spends its time dealing with annulments and laicizations hasn’t been effective to persuade him to conform to the canons,stay out of America and avoid embarrassing the Vatican. Burke, like that character Martino, will “retire” soon; probably for “health reasons”.


18 posted on 09/24/2009 3:42:36 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: NYer

Burke’s comments are absolutely outrageous and his actions uncanonical. To intrude into the affairs of the Archdiocese of Boston and of the Cardinal, however veiled his comments were, is beyond the pale no matter what one thinks of Kennedy.

The reason Burke was removed from St. Louis was his refusal to abide by the canons prohibiting crossing into the jurisdictions of other hierarchs. Apparently exiling him to a court which spends its time dealing with annulments and laicizations hasn’t been effective to persuade him to conform to the canons,stay out of America and avoid embarrassing the Vatican. Burke, like that character Martino, will “retire” soon; probably for “health reasons”.


19 posted on 09/24/2009 3:42:50 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Citizen Soldier

You are right but don’t give up hope. Even the Apostles were a bunch of bumblers and they had Christ right in front of them for an example! The humans may be fallible at times, but the Doctrine is not. Welcome— and may God bless you each and every day with his peace.


20 posted on 09/24/2009 4:20:55 PM PDT by Melian ("In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned." Twain)
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To: Kolokotronis
The reason Burke was removed from St. Louis was his refusal to abode by the canons prohibiting crossing into the jurisdictions of other hierarchs.

Are you certain about this? I have not read any such statement from the Vatican saying this was the reason why he was reassigned. You may be right, but I don't know if one can say that as certainly as you have without engaging in some form of gossip. Surely that court is not simply being stocked with exiles for bad behaviour?

I think you are also overstating the rest of your case a bit. I am not an expert, so I am not making any claim to definite knowledge, but I would be inclined to think that if we looked through the history of the Church we could find numerous examples of bishops criticising other hierarchs for their public actions, statements and policies, especially for particularly scandalous ones. Were there no Orthodox bishops who rebuked those who allowed the filioque to be used in their dioceses? Surely not. Since Kennedy's funeral was a nationally (globally?) watched and publicized event I cannot see how a bishop can actually be "intruding" into Boston's affairs simply by speaking about it, or even for criticising Boston's bishop for allowing it.

21 posted on 09/24/2009 5:27:40 PM PDT by cothrige (Ego vero Evangelio non crederem, ni si me catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret auctoritas.)
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To: Citizen Soldier

congratulations on joining the Church!

actually, since BXVI election, things have gotten much better, but obviously there is still quire a way to go. With more like youself, we are that much better a witness to the world.

also as people including clerics are not perfect, we will have these scandals, hopefully fewer.


22 posted on 09/24/2009 5:41:10 PM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman (Just say no to circular firing squads.)
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To: Kolokotronis

Source?

23 posted on 09/24/2009 5:44:57 PM PDT by delacoert (Good health to your belly button.)
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To: NYer

It’s not about giving succor in an hour of need, as O’Malley is saying, but about promoting and encouraging and condoning these “Catholic” pols in their time of power and influence yielding. I can’t recall a time when O’Malley blasted Kennedy in his lifetime, or Kerry, or any of them. So let’s not try to turn it into a story about a grieving family.


24 posted on 09/24/2009 5:45:46 PM PDT by EDINVA (A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul -- G. B. Shaw)
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To: cothrige

“I don’t know if one can say that as certainly as you have without engaging in some form of gossip.”

Gossip? From the Vatican and among hierarchs, yours and ours? Heaven forefend!


25 posted on 09/24/2009 5:46:42 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: delacoert

“Source?”

Mine. The same ones who told me the heresiarch Martino was finished. If I recall correctly, no one believed that then either.


26 posted on 09/24/2009 5:48:04 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
Gossip? From the Vatican and among hierarchs, yours and ours? Heaven forefend!

I am sure that there is gossip, but I don't think we should necessarily trust it. And I haven't even seen anything suggesting that the Vatican acted for the reasons you have given. It may have happened I suppose, but it would surprise me if that court was such a bad assignment that it was fully stocked with ecclesiastical ne'er-do-wells.

27 posted on 09/24/2009 6:02:21 PM PDT by cothrige (Ego vero Evangelio non crederem, ni si me catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret auctoritas.)
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To: Kolokotronis

My question is an honest and temperate one. I take it that you are not citing yourself, but those who you know and trust, and who you would rather not name.

Fine.

In the end that means I cannot reliably repeat your judgement.


28 posted on 09/24/2009 6:07:15 PM PDT by delacoert (Good health to your belly button.)
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To: cothrige

“I am sure that there is gossip, but I don’t think we should necessarily trust it.”

Sometimes that clerical/hierarchial “gossip” is pretty reliable. You needn’t credit it at all of course. Can you see how someone like Burke, disfavored among American hierarchs, a martinet and with a tendency to at least be perceived as a violator of the canons might become an embarrassment to the Vatican in other areas and with other people?

“...it would surprise me if that court was such a bad assignment that it was fully stocked with ecclesiastical ne’er-do-wells.”

All things considered, its probably not; no heavy lifting, that’s for sure and for someone with no pastoral ability it may have been viewed as a safe backwater. That said, there is a tradition of getting problematic American hierarchs, especially prominent ones, out of the country and off to Rome. Cardinal Law’s appointment to the Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore, with the title of “Archpriest” springs to mind.


29 posted on 09/24/2009 6:15:03 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: delacoert

“In the end that means I cannot reliably repeat your judgement.”

OK


30 posted on 09/24/2009 6:18:13 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Hoosier-Daddy

We don’t know if Kennedy is in hell or not. Perhaps he received the Sacrament of the Annointing of the Sick and went to Confession. Thence, he would be in Purgatory -— for a loooooong time.

Only God knows.


31 posted on 09/24/2009 6:24:24 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Kolokotronis

Archbishop Burke is the head of the Pope’s tribunal. He has every right to speak.


32 posted on 09/24/2009 6:25:37 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: delacoert

My sister, a resident of St. Louis, can verify that. That’s enough for me.


33 posted on 09/24/2009 6:26:44 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

“Archbishop Burke is the head of the Pope’s tribunal. He has every right to speak.”

As the head of the Pope’s tribunal, does this Archbishop have the right to violate the canons?

If some were to see Burke’s outlandish behavior as meaning that, well, the consequences to the Vatican could be rather more than simply embarrassing both in the near and the long term. Burke isn’t worth the trouble he’s making, no more than Martino was.


34 posted on 09/24/2009 6:31:30 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Salvation
TY Salvation

Right or wrong I have liked the way he contended with Sebelius. Guess I was wishing he had a little gravitas.

35 posted on 09/24/2009 6:35:55 PM PDT by delacoert (Good health to your belly button.)
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To: NYer

How timely and how unified.


36 posted on 09/24/2009 6:38:47 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( For the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof: - Prv. 28:2)
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To: Kolokotronis

I’m not familiar with canon law. So I really can’t judge on that matter. But on the tribunal that hears cases against the clergy, etc.??


37 posted on 09/24/2009 6:40:03 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

“I’m not familiar with canon law. So I really can’t judge on that matter.”

Its not so much a matter of “canon law” as it is the canons of The Church as decided by various councils of the One Church.

“But on the tribunal that hears cases against the clergy, etc.??”

In part, yes.


38 posted on 09/24/2009 6:50:25 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Lorianne

Ignorant


39 posted on 09/24/2009 7:41:50 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Kolokotronis

The opinion of a schismatic is irrelevant.


40 posted on 09/24/2009 7:43:34 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Kolokotronis
The reason Burke was removed from St. Louis was his refusal to abode by the canons prohibiting crossing into the jurisdictions of other hierarchs. Apparently exiling him to a court which spends its time dealing with annulments and laicizations hasn’t been effective to persuade him to conform to the canons,stay out of America and avoid embarrassing the Vatican. Burke, like that character Martino, will “retire” soon; probably for “health reasons”.

Um, no. He was Peter Principled to a place more suited to his talents (but not, in direct opposition to tradition, made a cardinal). The reality is, he's an atrocious administrator. And I'm not just saying that. Rigali left us in fantastic shape and Burke made a lot of big administrative errors in everything but the seminary. I doubt he'll be asked to resign, but I don't think he's going to get what he really wants which is a red hat. BXVI is not about to let him into the next consistory.

Let's face it, the media runs to him for quotes because he can't help himself in speaking in an inflamatory way. He's usually correct, but has zero PR skills.

41 posted on 09/24/2009 7:45:13 PM PDT by Desdemona (True Christianity requires open hearts and open minds - not blind hatred.)
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To: Kolokotronis
Sometimes that clerical/hierarchial “gossip” is pretty reliable. You needn’t credit it at all of course. Can you see how someone like Burke, disfavored among American hierarchs, a martinet and with a tendency to at least be perceived as a violator of the canons might become an embarrassment to the Vatican in other areas and with other people?

But, is there even such gossip in this case? If Raymond Burke embarrassed anyone I cannot really see how it would have been anyone that the Holy Father himself is not embarrassing with regularity. Who do you think he upset that had such pull in Rome? And, if that happened, why would Rome then allow him to constantly travel around to give interviews and talk about his views, as he has done here? I just don't see any evidence of what you seem to be suggesting, either about canonical violations regarding his comments on this funeral, or that the Vatican was forced by embarrassed people to move him to Rome.

42 posted on 09/24/2009 8:29:47 PM PDT by cothrige (Ego vero Evangelio non crederem, ni si me catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret auctoritas.)
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To: All

I’m thinking about copying some of this and writing an editorial for my newspaper editorial list.

People need to hear this Truth.


43 posted on 09/24/2009 9:14:30 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (It's us against them...the Establishment RINOs vs rank and file...Sarah Palin or bust)
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To: Kolokotronis
As the head of the Pope’s tribunal, does this Archbishop have the right to violate the canons?

You've now claimed several times that Archbishop Burke violated canons (but strangely not violated current Canon Law). Which Canon(s) have been violated? Citations, please. An exhaustive list is not necessary.

As an aside: As the supreme Law of the Church is the salvation of souls, it is my opinion that +Burke in no way errs if his intent is to preserve the immortal souls of his brother bishops and those souls entrusted to them.

44 posted on 09/24/2009 9:22:44 PM PDT by GCC Catholic (0bama, what are you hiding? Just show us the birth certificate...)
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To: Salvation

Of course. It would have to be one *Hell* of an Act of Contrition, though.


45 posted on 09/24/2009 9:24:02 PM PDT by Hoosier-Daddy ("It does no good to be a super power if you have to worry what the neighbors think." BuffaloJack)
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman; NYer; Melian

Thank you all, I am very happy with my decision to convert and I wouldn’t let something like this issue make me retreat from the Church. I know all churches and religions have dissent, but at least there is a 2,000 year history here to look on for guidance and i love that fact. It is the best decision I have ever made and I am excited every day and spend a lot of time reading about the traditions and doctors and saints, etc. It’s like peeling away layers of an onion. I only wish I had done it years ago. (BTW - my saint is St. Gertrude the Great, but I also love St. Teresa of Avila.)


46 posted on 09/25/2009 1:13:09 AM PDT by Citizen Soldier (Just got up from Bedroomshire)
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To: GCC Catholic

“You’ve now claimed several times that Archbishop Burke violated canons (but strangely not violated current Canon Law). Which Canon(s) have been violated? Citations, please. An exhaustive list is not necessary.”

Pull up the threads relating to the hierarchial exploding heads about the Obama speech at ND. In a nutshell it has to do with the ancient canons requiring removal from a see for a bishop who crosses diocesan lines and makes trouble in the diocese of another bishop. To the extent that Burke’s fulminations against what the Cardinal Archbishop of Boston did with the Kennedy bespeak an ecclesiology in which loud mouth, loose canon bishops can with impunity interfere in the jurisdiction of other bishops, this causes trouble for the Vatican, especially in light of its top own system and the claims for the Pope of universal immediate jurisdiction. Like I said earlier, Burke just isn;t worth the trouble he causes.

“...it is my opinion that +Burke in no way errs if his intent is to preserve the immortal souls of his brother bishops and those souls entrusted to them.”

That Jesuitical mindset is one of the problems. The Church doesn’t operate that way.


47 posted on 09/25/2009 3:53:02 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: cothrige

OK, but with all due respect, think a little more about who might be offended by a hierarch who feels free to publicly condemn either his hierarchial equals or betters, what that says about the sort of eccelsiology which allows that behavior and why all of that might be an embarrassment to a Pope who has a great stake, especially now, in promoting the concept of subsidiarity.


48 posted on 09/25/2009 4:00:13 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

“The opinion of a schismatic is irrelevant.”

Sadly for you, AAC, the opinions of “schismatics” like me matter very, very much to the Vatican.


49 posted on 09/25/2009 4:02:12 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

How is this different from St. Athanasius speaking out against the Arian bishops? Or any other bishop speaking out against proponents of any other heresy? (Don’t tell me abortion isn’t a heresy. The killing of babies goes against every fundamental Christian belief, not to mention the Commandments of God.)


50 posted on 09/25/2009 7:51:28 AM PDT by nanetteclaret (Unreconstructed Catholic Texan)
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