Priests in London and Yorkshire say they are tempted to join Rome (... however)

Times Online ^ | October 22, 2009 | Andrew Norfolk and Mary Bowers

[NYer]

The villages of the ancient parishes of Broughton, Marton and Thornton nestle in a corner of North Yorkshire that is perilously close to the Lancashire border. And even closer to Rome.

For the rector, the Rev Canon Nicholas Turner, editor of the traditionalist magazine New Directions, the Pope’s decree was the fulfilment of a long-held dream. But he must now decide whether to be reordained as a Roman Catholic priest. And if he does, what will happen to the churches and his parishioners?

To visit the Church of St Mary the Virgin in Thornton is to enter a Norman building that gives every appearance of being Catholic already. There is a statue of the Madonna and Child. There are candles and incense. Father Nicholas celebrates Mass, occasionally in Latin, hears confession and grants absolution.

The three parishes in the united benefice voted in the 1990s for resolutions granting them distance from the Bradford Diocese. Now the three parochial church councils may face a further vote: whether to join their priest and defect en masse to Rome, albeit a version of Roman Catholicism that would allow them to maintain much of their Anglican identity.

If it came to that, though, a hurdle would remain. Their three churches would still belong to the Church of England; unless a deal were reached, where would the new Catholics worship? In Father Nicholas’s ideal world, one church would pass into the control of the Anglican Catholics while the other two remained with the Church of England.

His world is not ideal, however, because his wife, Canon Ann Turner, is the local deacon and the Roman Catholic Church does not accept female deacons. Some tough decisions lie ahead.

[NYer]

In Walthamstow, East London, Father David Waller sits on a green chair, a black and white cat draped across his knees, and offers a cup of tea. “This could be the most significant thing to happen to the English Church since the Reformation,” he says.

His cat is named Joseph — after Cardinal Ratzinger, who became Pope Benedict XVI, and there is a picture of the Pope on the wall. The Anglican priest is one of the hundreds considering defecting to the Roman Catholic Church after the Pope decreed that he would introduce a structure for accepting Anglicans. The 120-strong congregation of the parish of St Saviour is one of several considering moving over en bloc.

I'm still a bit confused. If they are so anxious to join Rome, why have they not done so sooner?

[Rutles4Ever]

Because joining Rome in the past meant complete upheaval and uprooting of their current existence. Additionally, a formal initiative implicitly guarantees a widespread support system they would not have had earlier. Now they don’t have to necessarily leave their flock, as a portion of their flock will likely convert as well. Furthermore, the Vatican, by doing this, has ingeniously provided political “cover” for the process to start, i.e., after a few trickle over, many more who are quietly in agreement will follow suit. The Pope has, in effect, “de-scandalized” the process.

[AnAmericanMother]

Because there was no provision, outside the United States, for a parish to transfer into the Anglican Use Rite lock, stock and barrel, or for its priest to be re-ordained.

The individual parishioners could convert, of course, as we did, but not the parish as a unit.

That Rite has now been expanded to include the rest of the world.

It may REALLY catch on in England. Much will depend on the Archbishop of Canterbury's willingness to let these folks depart with their property.

Since the Church of England is withering away, and has literally thousands of church buildings that it cannot afford to keep up, this shouldn't be a problem unless the Archbishop's pride gets in the way.

He looked like his dog died at that joint press conference.

[Alex Murphy]

I'm still a bit confused. If they are so anxious to join Rome, why have they not done so sooner?

Maybe they're not so anxious to join.

[trisham]

That makes sense.

[Tax-chick]

Best wishes to the faithful clergy and laity of the Church of England in whatever they decide to do. They have the *nicest* churches. My brother’s father-in-law is a Church of England vicar, and he leads four churches in Norfolk and area, each an absolute gem.

[Romulus]

why have they not done so sooner?

The Rich Young Man

Behold, one came to him and said, "Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

He said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

He said to him, "Which ones?"

Jesus said, "'You shall not murder.' 'You shall not commit adultery.' 'You shall not steal.' 'You shall not offer false testimony.' 'Honor your father and mother.' And, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

The young man said to him, "All these things I have observed from my youth. What do I still lack?"

Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sad, for he was one who had great possessions. Jesus said to his disciples, "Most certainly I say to you, a rich man will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven with difficulty. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God."

When the disciples heard it, they were exceedingly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"

Looking at them, Jesus said, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Then Peter answered, "Behold, we have left everything, and followed you. What then will we have?"

Jesus said to them, "Most certainly I tell you that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on the throne of his glory, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Everyone who has left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, will receive one hundred times, and will inherit eternal life. But many will be last who are first; and first who are last.

Matthew 19:16-30

[bronx2]

As I mentioned on another thread this entire situation is “Much to do about Nothing”. The economic demands will temper the enthusiasm of all concerned. Some movement in Australia and New Zealand but that is it.

Concentrate and focus attention with establishing better relations with the Russian Orthodox. This is the area of most promise.They endured seventy years of communist subversion and have much to teach.

[AnAmericanMother]

Norfolk is something of a backwater these days, but it was a great and wealthy county back in pre-Reformation times, and its churches reflect the people's wealth and piety.

Lord Peter Wimsey probably said it best, looking at Fenchurch St. Paul's (a fictional church but based on the best of the old Norfolk churches) - "It's like a young cathedral!"

[RobbyS]

Recall Newman's Apologia. In this case, the difference is less personal than communal. He is thinking of moving not just himself but his whole " family" into foreign territory. Helps if the "ruler" of this land is inviting them to immigrate as a community.

[cmj328]

Many of them received at least putatively valid orders from Old Catholics. So they had could remain orthodox, practicing a Catholic liturgy and accepting Catholic doctrine while in an irregular status, or else be completely subsumed under an English Catholic hierarchy largely overrun with modernism, the priest separated from his flock and told to report to a homosexual pastor perhaps dozens of miles away, and the people sent to the local parish mambo Mass—scandalous situations not conducive to Christian life.

[Unam Sanctam]

I'm still a bit confused. If they are so anxious to join Rome, why have they not done so sooner?

My guess is the banal liturgies that unfortunately characterize so many Catholic parishes.

[sitetest]

Dear AnAmericanMother,

“It may REALLY catch on in England.”

It really might.

But I don't think it will have much to do with property. My understanding is that there are significant numbers of Catholic churches that are being shuttered, and many Anglican Catholic parishes could use them.

But I think that what might start out as a modest stream of converted priests and parishes could turn into something more. I think it will depend heavily on where the Church of England goes next.

The Church of England will certainly begin to consecrate women “bishops.” This is the latest breach with Catholic faith and practice that is driving much of the current crisis. My understanding is that there are easily a thousand Anglican priests in the Church of England who find this intolerable.

Initially, I expect that only a modest number of these will take the pope up on his offer.

But what happens next may drive the bulk of them out afterwards.

There have been negotiations to permit clerics opposed to female “bishops” the right to be supervised by male bishops only. But the folks pushing female “bishops” have been adamant in not granting this dispensation, and have been adamant in demanding that EVERYONE accept female “bishops.” With the new Apostolic Constitution, I think that this strengthens the hand of the liberals, and permits them to say, “If this violates the traditionalists’ conscience so much, the path is clear for them to leave.”

I think it's very likely that no consideration will be given for the traditionalists when female “bishops” are approved. Then the traditionalists will have a stark choice - violate their consciences, or leave for Rome.

And it may come to pass that a large number of those thousand Anglican priests will swim the Tiber.

sitetest

[sitetest]

Dear cmj328,

The beauty of Pope Benedict's Apostolic Constitution is that if more than one or two priests and parishes wish to be received into the Church, the Church will create a Personal Ordinariate for them, largely shielding them from whatever nonsense is going on in the local Roman Catholic diocese. They will be able to retain their liturgy, their music, and most importantly, their own orthodox hierarchy drawn from their own ranks.

I think that dramatically improves the circumstances of entry into the Catholic Church.

sitetest

[Tax-chick]

The Dukes of Norfolk were Catholic holdouts, weren’t they?

“Midsomer Murders” has cool churches, too! Maybe I’ll go by the library for some DVD’s later. Takes too long to get them from Netflix, and they’re not available on the streaming video.

[cmj328]

I think that dramatically improves the circumstances of entry into the Catholic Church.

I absolutely agree. The new arrangement obviates the former concerns.

Someone was (perhaps a bit sanctimoniously) asking why the Anglo-Catholics hadn't converted yet. Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, et alia. I chose to interpret their decision in the most positive light, which is the Christian duty.

[GCC Catholic]

or else be completely subsumed under an English Catholic hierarchy largely overrun with modernism, the priest separated from his flock and told to report to a homosexual pastor perhaps dozens of miles away, and the people sent to the local parish mambo Mass

Not possible, at least insofar as the press release describes the structures that will be created.

The converts will have their own "Ordinature," a structure akin to a diocese, but without strict geographical borders. In other words, it "overlaps" the English (or Australian, Indian, or whatever) diocese, and has its own Ordinary (either a bishop or a priest). That Ordinary would not be under the current Latin Rite bishops, but would instead have authority within his Ordinature identical to what they would have in their own dioceses.

These converts would "raise the bar" for the current Catholic dioceses, as the laity could freely attend these churches if they desire (just as they could attend an Eastern Catholic parish) - this is a medicine for the modernism.

[RobbyS]

The pope has decided to flank the modernists. I’ll bet they are pissed. They hate this pope.

[sionnsar]

Thanks to NYer for the ping.

Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams.

FReepmail Huber or sionnsar if you want on or off this low-volume ping list.
This list is pinged by Huber and sionnsar.

Resource for Traditional Anglicans: http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com
Humor: The Anglican Blue

Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15