Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"

CatholicApologetics.org ^ | 1985-1991 | Dr. Robert Schihl and Paul Flanagan

[Salvation]

Catholic Biblical Apologetics

Apologetics without apology!

What does the Roman Catholic Church teach about ...? ... and why?

This website surveys the origin and development of Roman Catholic Christianity from the period of the apostolic church, through the post-apostolic church and into the conciliar movement. Principal attention is paid to the biblical basis of both doctrine and dogma as well as the role of paradosis (i.e. handing on the truth) in the history of the Church. Particular attention is also paid to the hierarchical founding and succession of leadership throughout the centuries.

This is a set of lecture notes used since 1985 to teach the basis for key doctrines and dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. The objectives of the course were, and are:

• To present the biblical basis for the origin and development of the Roman Catholic Church.
• To present the development of the canon of Scripture and evolution of biblical teaching in the Church.
• To understand the role of paradosis/tradition in the oral transmission of revelation.
• To study the Council of Jerusalem, described in the 15^th chapter of The Acts of the Apostles and its role in the development of doctrine in the conciliar movement in the Church.
• To understand the revelation, doctrinal development and practice of the sacramental life in the history of the Church.
• To study the role of the Holy Spirit as teaching authority in the Church.
• To study the revelation and development of hierarchical authority in the Church.
• To understand the hierarchy of truths in the Church as well as the role of private devotion and personal growth in holiness.

The course grew out of the need for the authors to continually answer questions about their faith tradition and their work. (Both authors are active members of Catholic parish communities in the Diocese of Richmond, Virginia. Dr. Robert Schihl was a Professor and Associate Dean of the School of Communication and the Arts at Regent University. Paul Flanagan is a consultant specializing in preparing people for technology based changes.) At the time these notes were first prepared, the authors were spending time in their faith community answering questions about their Protestant Evangelical workplaces (Mr. Flanagan was then a senior executive at the Christian Broadcasting Network), and time in their workplaces answering similar questions about their Roman Catholic faith community. These notes are the result of more than a decade of facilitating dialogue among those who wish to learn more about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and why.

The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"

The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"

The Catholic Christian answers this question in three stages or levels corresponding to the three meanings the words "saved" and "salvation" have in the Bible. (These meanings are found in the previous section, "Salvation: A Biblical Portrait." )

Catholic Christians can respond that they have been saved. This acknowledges the first meaning of "saved" and "salvation" in scripture--Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation we are objectively saved--He died, rose from the dead, saved them from sin.

2 Cor 5:17

So whoever is in Christ is a new creation

Catholic Christians can also respond that they are being saved. This acknowledges the second meaning "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the present experience, God's power delivering constantly from the bondage of sin.

1 Cor 15:2

Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Catholic Christians also respond that they will be saved, that they have hope and confidence that God will give them the grace of perseverance; that they will respond to it; and accept his gift of salvation until their death. This acknowledges the third meaning the words "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the future deliverance of believers at the Second Coming of Christ.

Rom 5:9

How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.

[Ultra Sonic 007]

And why did Christ say such to the condemned criminal?

Luke 23:39-42

39 And one of those robbers who were hanged, blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing thou art condemned under the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil.
42 And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.

The criminal acknowledged his own sins, and acknowledged that Christ was without sin, blameless. The criminal then asked only that Christ remember him.

A literal “come to Jesus” moment before death. And is it not taught and accepted by all Christian denominations that those who truly repent are saved, even on their deathbed?

“Whatever the case was for the Old Testament righteous, that has little bearing on me today.”

It certainly should. Were their souls fundamentally different from ours? Did the salvation of Christ differ for them than it does for us?

[MHGinTN]

Once born again, you are born into His family. Nothing can remove to which family you are a member. And His family is ‘like Him’, as the Bible says when we see Him we shall be like Him. Thus we are forever His family members once born into His family (John 3:5-8).

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Once saved, always saved is 100% correct. Once someone is saved, the Holy Ghost dwells in them.

And if one denies the Holy Ghost?

[Salvation]

Sheol can be interpreted as another word for hell or Purgatory.

[ScubieNuc]

I've got to get to bed, but here are a couple of quick references to "Knowing you are saved" and "Faith saves" not works.

1John 5:10-13 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Those verse show a couple of things. One, it emphasizes belief in Jesus saves. Two, it explains why the information was written down....so that people would KNOW that through belief they have (not might have, or might get, but actually, currently have ) eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I don't know how the Bible could be any clearer. You are saved through faith, NOT OF WORKS.

Now the one set of verses you could have said "described a type of purgatory" would have been 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. However when you read those verses you learn that the foundation of a believer is Christ and the works get tested but the person is saved because their foundation is Christ.

1Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now, you are free to put the shackles of "salvation by works" on your shoulders if you really want to, but I know that that theology isn't supported by the Bible, so I won't.

[annalex]

Bible reference to a place called "purgatory".

This is a childish argument. The Bible also doesn't mention the Trinity, or "Bible alone", or communion by grape juice and matzot, and when it does mention "faith alone", the Protestant big-kahuna-doo, it refutes it.

The idea that man who is judged saved might nevertheless be tested for impurities and then purified of them, is expressed in 1 Cor 3:7-15, clearly. It is in fact one of those passages where the Protestant myth-making really hits the fan. There is no passage that invited people to heaven dirty as they are.

The good thief on the cross died a saint. He sure did not die to lead us to impurity. St. Dismas, the Holy Criminal, pray for us sinners and forgive our stupidity.

[Salvation]

**theology isn’t supported by the Bible**

That’s a strange thing to say in my way of thinking. Care to explain?

[annalex]

That you have eternal life if you have the Son, is a tall order. I know that Christ died for me, but unless I die for Him (please, Lord), -- I don't know if I "have Him".

Other than through the Eucharist, which indeed gives us an abundant assurance of salvation, which verse curiously no Protestant heretic will ever quote back to me, John 6:55

He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day

But that I cannot just take. I have to be of mature discerning faith:

he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. (1 Cor. 11:29)

Ephesians 2:8,9 only seems to deny the salvation by grace alone through faith and works if you never read the rest of the paragraph. So, read the rest of the paragraph.

Good night.

[Salvation]

Definition of Theology

THEOLOGY

Literally "the science of God," used by the Stoics in the third century B.C. to describe a reasoned analysis of the deity. Earlier uses were more naturalistic. Thus, Plato in the Republic and Aristotle in his Metaphysics called Homer, Hesiod, and Orpheus theologians because they first determined the genealogies and attributes of the gods.

With the advent of Christianity, theology came to mean what its etymolgy suggested, and was defined by St. Augustine as "reasoning or discourse about the divinity." Through the patristic age to the period of The Schoolmen, this remained the acceptable generic meaning. Peter Abelard (1079-1142) is credited with first having used the term in its modern connotation. St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-74) defended theology as a science because it investigates the contents of belief by means of reason enlightened by faith (fides quaerens intellectum), in order to acquire a deeper understanding or revelation. He also distinguished theology proper from "natural theology" or what Gottfried Leibniz later called "theolodicy," which studies God as knowable by reason alone and independent of divine authority. Since the thirteenth century the term has been applied to the whole study of revealed truth and gradually replaced its reival synonyms. (Etym. Latin theologia; from Greek: theo, God + -logia, knowledge.)

All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.

Hmmmmm.

[annalex]

Care to explain?

It's a school night.

[annalex]

Sorry, wrong. School’s not till Monday.

[ScubieNuc]

Sheol can be interpreted as another word for hell or Purgatory.

Don't confuse "has been interpreted" with "is the same as". Sheol is a Hebrew word with specific meanings, mainly that of the grave. Gehenna is the name of a specific place which had been a place of punishment for the nation of Isreal and had been a trash dump. The English word Hell comes from an Old Germanic-Anglo word helan, meaning "to conceal or cover"

Now just because some people want to translate Greek or Hebrew into something else like Hell or Purgatory, that doesn't mean it's correct. If you do some research you will see that there is much more to this then I have time to go into tonight.

Here is one good site to look at: http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

[Ultra Sonic 007]

You are saved through faith, NOT OF WORKS.

Meanwhile, in James:

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

The passage you quote from Ephesians says something other than what you proclaim: it is by the grace of God that we are saved, through faith in Christ: not by works of our own. Yet what of works that strengthen our faith, works that are done in the name of keeping the Commandments of our Lord and Savior? What would you characterize those as?

I submit that the works I mention are not those that we may boast of, as if it was because of us that they have merit: only by the grace of God do such works exhibit and deepen our faith in Christ.

After all, if we are to profess faith in the Lord, we must have faith in His teachings. To do so, we must do works that are good by the grace of God (spreading the Gospel, caring for the poor and downtrodden, loving thy neighbor, and so on), not good by the standard of men.

[kingpins10]

Only an unsaved person can “deny the Holy Ghost”. The Holy Ghost is what gives conviction of sin. An unsaved person will face this conviction at some point in their lives.

A saved person can “grieve” or “quench” the Holy Ghost by doing something that is sin or not responding to the Holy Ghost’s conviction for service, but they cannot lose the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. Many Christians are led astray through false teachers because of a lack of discernment through grieving or quenching the Holy Ghost, which is truly sad.

[999replies]

Nothing to work towards. I asked Jesus to be my saviour over 30 years ago, I have nothing to work toward. My salvation is assured

Wow, I guess the bible is obsolete in your life now. It sounds like you don't need it anymore. Cool beans.

[annalex]

doing something that is sin or not responding to the Holy Ghost’s conviction for service doing something that is sin or not responding to the Holy Ghost’s conviction for service, but they cannot lose the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

Who then saves them despite the sin or the "not responding"?

What scripture do you have in support? I get the indwelling part, I am asking about the "saved person" part. Does he stay saved?

[kingpins10]

I think you may be unintentionally separating the “indwelling” from being “saved”. Christ said that he would send the Holy Ghost (Comforter) to believers after his death and resurrection. Our good works or rituals have nothing to do with it. It is 100% by faith alone, since our works our “filthy rags” to God.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2016:7&version=KJV

This page should answer your questions more fully. (With corresponding verses)

[kingpins10]

Sorry, meant to add this link in the last post...

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t006.html

[ScubieNuc]

Other than through the Eucharist, which indeed gives us an abundant assurance of salvation, which verse curiously no Protestant heretic will ever quote back to me, John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day

Well, I know you believe the Eucharist helps save you, but that again is something not supported by the Bible. As for being a "heretic", if you mean by that a person who doesn't buy into the UnBiblical theologies of the Catholic church, then yes that would be me. As for quoting back to you John 6:55, I'd be more than happy to, with a look at it's context. (I can do this one quick because I have this information saved. Then I'll go to bed. )

Read all of John Chapter 6.

Jesus preformed a miracle where thousands were fed bread. He then went away from the crowd. The crowd followed him, but not because they sought Christ as teacher or Savior, not because they knew he was the Christ, but because they wanted to get their stomachs full of bread.

Read the rebuke of Christ to them

John 6:25-26 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.,

It was then He began to teach that they were looking for a miracle that would fill their stomachs ( as did the nation of Israel in the desert) and not for His presence or teaching. They only wanted their temporal needs met.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jesus laid out that salvation was by FAITH, and that Faith was a work of the Father Then then decided to put Christ to a test ...Give us PROOF. It was THEY that brought up the manna (bread) Not Christ.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Jesus clarified where salvation comes from;

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

He was pointing out that the "bread from heaven " that kept their fathers only gave them physical life.. HE on the other hand was sent from the Father to give them eternal spiritual life.

They did not "get it" they were looking for REAL bread to give them physical life as had happened in the desert, they were looking for tangible bread like manna, just as they were looking for an earthly savior not a divine salvation.

John 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

Jesus then patiently explained to them that His flesh is life for the world.. His crucified body was what was going to bring eternal life, not a temporal one.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you,That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The entire message is on salvation by faith through believeing, not a message of salvation through physically eating. The listeners did not get it , they were hung up on another point.

John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Notice the focus of the crowd was not on Him being the BREAD or eating Him but that He said he came down from heaven ( a claim of divinity )

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Notice that physical eating is temporary. The Jews in the wilderness ate and they all died.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Now, if the diciples took actual bites out of Jesus, why aren't they still alive (physically)? Jesus here declares that the manna was a TYPE of Christ.. The manna gave physical life, His flesh is for the eternal life of men.

John 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Notice the clear language, "NOT as your fathers did eat." How did their fathers eat? By putting the manna in their mouth and chewing. That is not how we "eat" the Bread from Heaven. We "eat" this bread by believing.

Keep in mind that He had already taught at some length that He that believed on Him would be saved. He has already taught that the man that is taught by the Father comes to him and are saved. So to interpret this as other than a metaphor of being saved by His soon to be broken body and his shed blood, is just terribly twisted.

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

If they were offended at that, he was saying wait until you hear the rest..

John 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

They did not like hearing that salvation had to be given them and much like the manna in the desert, it was totally a gift of the Father. They could not do anything on their own to earn it, they only had access to it by faith ( remember the Jews could only gather enough manna for the one days meals, and for 2 days on the day before the sabbath, they had to have faith in God to provide what was necessary for their life) . The idea that salvation was all of God and not found in law keeping was blasphemy to the law oriented Jews that felt their salvation was based on their will, their law keeping etc..

To make an attempt to make this a teaching on the Lords supper misses the mark. Christ was still alive and in His flesh and he was, by your reckoning , telling them to do something they could not do because the Lords Supper had not been instituted yet,it is a spiritual eating and drinking that is here spoken of, not a sacramental. This was clearly a metaphorical teaching to Jews looking for a Physical savior like Moses, and for physical bread to meet their physical hunger. Jesus always used symbols that the Jews understood to make spiritual points.

[TheStickman]

I am so thankful and comforted in knowing the Catholic Church is indeed led by the Holy Spirit thru imperfect men & the Teaching of Salvation clear & plain for all who open their hearts to His Word. Peace :)