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Sola Scriptura - In the Vanity of their Minds
Orthodox Christian Information Center ^ | unknown | Fr John Whiteford

Posted on 02/22/2010 10:34:43 AM PST by MarMema

PROBLEMS WITH THE DOCTRINE OF SOLA SCRIPTURA A. IT IS A DOCTRINE BASED UPON A NUMBER OF FAULTY ASSUMPTIONS

An assumption is something that we take for granted from the outset, usually quite unconsciously. As long as an assumption is a valid one, all is fine and well; but a false assumption inevitably leads to false conclusions. One would hope that even when one has made an unconscious assumption that when his conclusions are proven faulty he would then ask himself where his underlying error lay. Protestants who are willing to honestly assess the current state of the Protestant world, must ask themselves why, if Protestantism and its foundational teaching of Sola Scriptura are of God, has it resulted in over twenty-thousand differing groups that cant agree on basic aspects of what the Bible says, or what it even means to be a Christian? Why (if the Bible is sufficient apart from Holy Tradition) can a Baptist, a Jehovahs Witness, a Charismatic, and a Methodist all claim to believe what the Bible says and yet no two of them agree what it is that the Bible says? Obviously, here is a situation in which Protestants have found themselves that is wrong by any stretch or measure. Unfortunately, most Protestants are willing to blame this sad state of affairs on almost anything — anything except the root problem. The idea of Sola Scriptura is so foundational to Protestantism that to them it is tantamount to denying God to question it, but as our Lord said, "every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a bad tree bringeth forth evil fruit" (Matthew 7:17). If we judge Sola Scriptura by its fruit then we are left with no other conclusion than that this tree needs to be "hewn down, and cast into the fire" (Matthew 7:19). FALSE ASSUMPTION # 1: The Bible was intended to be the last word on faith, piety, and worship. a). Does the Scripture teach that it is "all sufficient?"

The most obvious assumption that underlies the doctrine of "Scripture alone" is that the Bible has within it all that is needed for everything that concerns the Christians life — all that would be needed for true faith, practice, piety, and worship. The Scripture that is most usually cited to support this notion is:

...from a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works (II Timothy 3:15-17).

Those who would use this passage to advocate Sola Scriptura argue that this passage teaches the "all sufficiency" of Scripture — because, "If, indeed, the Holy Scriptures are able to make the pious man perfect... then, indeed to attain completeness and perfection, there is no need of tradition."1 But what can really be said based on this passage?

For starters, we should ask what Paul is talking about when he speaks of the Scriptures that Timothy has known since he was a child. We can be sure that Paul is not referring to the New Testament, because the New Testament had not yet been written when Timothy was a child — in fact it was not nearly finished when Paul wrote this epistle to Timothy, much less collected together into the canon of the New Testament as we now know it. Obviously here, and in most references to "the Scriptures" that we find in the New Testament, Paul is speaking of the Old Testament; so if this passage is going to be used to set the limits on inspired authority, not only will Tradition be excluded but this passage itself and the entire New Testament.

In the second place, if Paul meant to exclude tradition as not also being profitable, then we should wonder why Paul uses non-biblical oral tradition in this very same chapter. The names Jannes and Jambres are not found in the Old Testament, yet in II Timothy 3:8 Paul refers to them as opposing Moses. Paul is drawing upon the oral tradition that the names of the two most prominent Egyptian Magicians in the Exodus account (Ch. 7-8) were "Jannes" and "Jambres."2 And this is by no means the only time that a non-biblical source is used in the New Testament — the best known instance is in the Epistle of St. Jude, which quotes from the Book of Enoch (Jude 14,15 cf. Enoch 1:9).

When the Church officially canonized the books of Scripture, the primary purpose in establishing an authoritative list of books which were to be received as Sacred Scripture was to protect the Church from spurious books which claimed apostolic authorship but were in fact the work of heretics (e.g. the gospel of Thomas). Heretical groups could not base their teachings on Holy Tradition because their teachings originated from outside the Church, so the only way that they could claim any authoritative basis for their heresies was to twist the meaning of the Scriptures and to forge new books in the names of apostles or Old Testament saints. The Church defended itself against heretical teachings by appealing to the apostolic origins of Holy Tradition (proven by Apostolic Succession, i.e. the fact that the bishops and teachers of the Church can historically demonstrate their direct descendence from the Apostles), and by appealing to the universality of the Orthodox Faith (i.e. that the Orthodox faith is that same faith that Orthodox Christians have always accepted throughout its history and throughout the world). The Church defended itself against spurious and heretical books by establishing an authoritative list of sacred books that were received throughout the Church as being divinely inspired and of genuine Old Testament or apostolic origin.

By establishing the canonical list of Sacred Scripture the Church did not intend to imply that all of the Christian Faith and all information necessary for worship and good order in the Church was contained in them.3 One thing that is beyond serious dispute is that by the time the Church settled the Canon of Scripture it was in its faith and worship essentially indistinguishable from the Church of later periods — this is an historical certainty. As far as the structure of Church authority, it was Orthodox bishops together in various councils who settled the question of the Canon — and so it is to this day in the Orthodox Church when any question of doctrine or discipline has to be settled. b). What was the purpose of the New Testament Writings?

In Protestant biblical studies it is taught (and I think correctly taught in this instance) that when you study the Bible, among many other considerations, you must consider the genre (or literary type) of literature that you are reading in a particular passage, because different genres have different uses. Another consideration is of course the subject and purpose of the book or passage you are dealing with. In the New Testament we have four broad categories of literary genres: gospel, historical narrative (Acts), epistle, and the apocalyptic/prophetic book, Revelation. Gospels were written to testify of Christs life, death, and resurrection. Biblical historical narratives recount the history of God's people and also the lives of significant figures in that history, and show God's providence in the midst of it all. Epistles were written primarily to answer specific problems that arose in various Churches; thus, things that were assumed and understood by all, and not considered problems were not generally touched upon in any detail. Doctrinal issues that were addressed were generally disputed or misunderstood doctrines,4 matters of worship were only dealt with when there were related problems (e.g. I Corinthians 11-14). Apocalyptic writings (such as Revelation) were written to show God's ultimate triumph in history.

Let us first note that none of these literary types present in the New Testament have worship as a primary subject, or were meant to give details about how to worship in Church. In the Old Testament there are detailed (though by no means exhaustive) treatments of the worship of the people of Israel (e.g. Leviticus, Psalms) — in the New Testament there are only meager hints of the worship of the Early Christians. Why is this? Certainly not because they had no order in their services — liturgical historians have established the fact that the early Christians continued to worship in a manner firmly based upon the patterns of Jewish worship which it inherited from the Apostles. 5 However, even the few references in the New Testament that touch upon the worship of the early Church show that, far from being a wild group of free-spirited "Charismatics," the Christians in the New Testament worshiped liturgically as did their fathers before them: they observed hours of prayer (Acts 3:1); they worshiped in the Temple (Acts 2:46, 3:1, 21:26); and they worshiped in Synagogues (Acts 18:4).

We need also to note that none of the types of literature present in the New Testament have as their purpose comprehensive doctrinal instruction — it does not contain a catechism or a systematic theology. If all that we need as Christians is the Bible by itself, why is there not some sort of a comprehensive doctrinal statement? Imagine how easily all the many controversies could have been settled if the Bible clearly answered every doctrinal question. But as convenient as it might otherwise have been, such things are not found among the books of the Bible.

Let no one misunderstand the point that is being made. None of this is meant to belittle the importance of the Holy Scriptures — God forbid! In the Orthodox Church the Scriptures are believed to be fully inspired, inerrant, and authoritative; but the fact is that the Bible does not contain within it teaching on every subject of importance to the Church. As already stated, the New Testament gives little detail about how to worship — but this is certainly no small matter. Furthermore, the same Church that handed down to us the Holy Scriptures, and preserved them, was the very same Church from which we have received our patterns of worship. If we mistrust this Churchs faithfulness in preserving Apostolic worship, then we must also mistrust her fidelity in preserving the Scriptures. 6 c). Is the Bible, in practice, really "all sufficient" for Protestants?

Protestants frequently claim they "just believe the Bible," but a number of questions arise when one examines their actual use of the Bible. For instance, why do Protestants write so many books on doctrine and the Christian life in general, if indeed all that is necessary is the Bible? If the Bible by itself were sufficient for one to understand it, then why dont Protestants simply hand out Bibles? And if it is "all sufficient," why does it not produce consistent results, i.e. why do Protestants not all believe the same? What is the purpose of the many Protestant study Bibles, if all that is needed is the Bible itself? Why do they hand out tracts and other material? Why do they even teach or preach at all —why not just read the Bible to people? The answer is though they usually will not admit it, Protestants instinctively know that the Bible cannot be understood alone. And in fact every Protestant sect has its own body of traditions, though again they generally will not call them what they are. It is not an accident that Jehovahs Witnesses all believe the same things, and Southern Baptists generally believe the same things, but Jehovahs Witnesses and Southern Baptists emphatically do not believe the same things. Jehovahs Witnesses and Southern Baptists do not each individually come up with their own ideas from an independent study of the Bible; rather, those in each group are all taught to believe in a certain way — from a common tradition. So then the question is not really whether we will just believe the Bible or whether we will also use tradition — the real question is which tradition will we use to interpret the Bible? Which tradition can be trusted, the Apostolic Tradition of the Orthodox Church, or the muddled, and modern, traditions of Protestantism that have no roots beyond the advent of the Protestant Reformation. FALSE ASSUMPTION # 2: The Scriptures were the basis of the early Church, whereas Tradition is simply a "human corruption" that came much later.

Especially among Evangelicals and so-called Charismatics you will find that the word "tradition" is a derogatory term, and to label something as a "tradition" is roughly equivalent to saying that it is "fleshly," "spiritually dead," "destructive," and/or "legalistic." As Protestants read the New Testament, it seems clear to them that the Bible roundly condemns tradition as being opposed to Scripture. The image of early Christians that they generally have is essentially that the early Christians were pretty much like 20th Century Evangelicals or Charismatics! That the First Century Christians would have had liturgical worship, or would have adhered to any tradition is inconceivable — only later, "when the Church became corrupted," is it imagined that such things entered the Church. It comes as quite a blow to such Protestants (as it did to me) when they actually study the early Church and the writings of the early Fathers and begin to see a distinctly different picture than that which they were always led to envision. One finds that, for example, the early Christians did not tote their Bibles with them to Church each Sunday for a Bible study — in fact it was so difficult to acquire a copy of even portions of Scripture, due to the time and resources involved in making a copy, that very few individuals owned their own copies. Instead, the copies of the Scriptures were kept by designated persons in the Church, or kept at the place where the Church gathered for worship. Furthermore, most Churches did not have complete copies of all the books of the Old Testament, much less the New Testament (which was not finished until almost the end of the First Century, and not in its final canonical form until the Fourth Century). This is not to say that the early Christians did not study the Scriptures — they did in earnest, but as a group, not as individuals. And for most of the First Century, Christians were limited in study to the Old Testament. So how did they know the Gospel, the life and teachings of Christ, how to worship, what to believe about the nature of Christ, etc? They had only the Oral Tradition handed down from the Apostles. Sure, many in the early Church heard these things directly from the Apostles themselves, but many more did not, especially with the passing of the First Century and the Apostles with it. Later generations had access to the writings of the Apostles through the New Testament, but the early Church depended on Oral Tradition almost entirely for its knowledge of the Christian faith.

This dependence upon tradition is evident in the New Testament writings themselves. For example, Saint Paul exhorts the Thessalonians:

Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word [i.e. oral tradition] or our epistle (II Thessalonians 2:15).

The word here translated "traditions" is the Greek word paradosis — which, though translated differently in some Protestant versions, is the same word that the Greek Orthodox use when speaking of Tradition, and few competent Bible scholars would dispute this meaning. The word itself literally means "what is transmitted." It is the same word used when referring negatively to the false teachings of the Pharisees (Mark 7:3, 5, 8), and also when referring to authoritative Christian teaching (I Corinthians 11:2, Second Thessalonians 2:15). So what makes the tradition of the Pharisees false and that of the Church true? The source! Christ made clear what was the source of the traditions of the Pharisees when He called them "the traditions of men" (Mark 7:8). Saint Paul on the other hand, in reference to Christian Tradition states, "I praise you brethren, that you remember me in all things and hold fast to the traditions [paradoseis] just as I delivered [paredoka, a verbal form of paradosis] them to you" (First Corinthians 11:2), but where did he get these traditions in the first place? "I received from the Lord that which I delivered [paredoka] to you" (first Corinthians 11:23). This is what the Orthodox Church refers to when it speaks of the Apostolic Tradition — "the Faith once delivered [paradotheise] unto the saints" (Jude 3). Its source is Christ, it was delivered personally by Him to the Apostles through all that He said and did, which if it all were all written down, "the world itself could not contain the books that should be written" (John 21:25). The Apostles delivered this knowldge to the entire Church, and the Church, being the repository of this treasure thus became "the pillar and ground of the Truth" (I Timothy 3:15).

The testimony of the New Testament is clear on this point: the early Christians had both oral and written traditions which they received from Christ through the Apostles. For written tradition they at first had only fragments — one local church had an Epistle, another perhaps a Gospel. Gradually these writings were gathered together into collections and ultimately they became the New Testament. And how did these early Christians know which books were authentic and which were not — for (as already noted) there were numerous spurious epistles and gospels claimed by heretics to have been written by Apostles? It was the oral Apostolic Tradition that aided the Church in making this determination.

Protestants react violently to the idea of Holy Tradition simply because the only form of it that they have generally encountered is the concept of Tradition found in Roman Catholicism. Contrary to the Roman view of Tradition, which is personified by the Papacy, and develops new dogmas previously unknown to the Church (such as Papal Infallibility, to cite just one of the more odious examples) —the Orthodox do not believe that Tradition grows or changes. Certainly when the Church is faced with a heresy, it is forced to define more precisely the difference between truth and error, but the Truth does not change. It may be said that Tradition expands in the sense that as the Church moves through history it does not forget its experiences along the way, it remembers the saints that arise in it, and it preserves the writings of those who have accurately stated its faith; but the Faith itself was "once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3).

But how can we know that the Church has preserved the Apostolic Tradition in its purity? The short answer is that God has preserved it in the Church because He has promised to do so. Christ said that He would build His Church and that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). Christ Himself is the head of the Church (Ephesians 4:16), and the Church is His Body (Ephesians 1:22-23). If the Church lost the pure Apostolic Tradition, then the Truth would have to cease being the Truth — for the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth (I Timothy 3:15). The common Protestant conception of Church history, that the Church fell into apostasy from the time of Constantine until the Reformation certainly makes these and many other Scriptures meaningless. If the Church ceased to be, for even one day, then the gates of Hell prevailed against it on that day. If this were the case, when Christ described the growth of the Church in His parable of the mustard seed (Matthew 13:31-32), He should have spoken of a plant that started to grow but was squashed, and in its place a new seed sprouted later on — but instead He used the imagery of a mustard seed that begins small but steadily grows into the largest of garden plants.

As to those who would posit that there was some group of true-believing Protestants living in caves somewhere for a thousand years, where is the evidence? The Waldensians 7 that are claimed as forebearers by every sect from the Pentecostals to the Jehovahs Witnesses, did not exist prior to the 12th Century. It is, to say the least, a bit of a stretch to believe that these true-believers suffered courageously under the fierce persecutions of the Romans, and yet would have headed for the hills as soon as Christianity became a legal religion. And yet even this seems possible when compared with the notion that such a group could have survived for a thousand years without leaving a trace of historical evidence to substantiate that it had ever existed.

At this point one might object that there were in fact examples of people in Church history who taught things contrary to what others taught, so who is to say what the Apostolic Tradition is? And further more, what if a corrupt practice arose, how could it later be distinguished from Apostolic Tradition? Protestants ask these questions because, in the Roman Catholic Church there did arise new and corrupt "traditions," but this is because the Latin West first corrupted its understanding of the nature of Tradition. The Orthodox understanding which earlier prevailed in the West and was preserved in the Orthodox Church, is basically that Tradition is in essence unchanging and is known by its universality or catholicity. True Apostolic Tradition is found in the historic consensus of Church teaching. Find that which the Church has believed always, throughout history, and everywhere in the Church, and then you will have found the Truth. If any belief can be shown to have not been received by the Church in its history, then this is heresy. Mind you, however, we are speaking of the Church, not schismatic groups. There were schismatics and heretics who broke away from the Church during the New Testament period, and there has been a continual supply of them since, for as the Apostle says, "there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest" (ICorinthians 11:19) FALSE ASSUMPTION # 3: Anyone can interpret the Scriptures for himself or herself without the aid of the Church.

Though many Protestants would take issue with the way this assumption is worded, this is essentially the assumption that prevailed when the Reformers first advocated the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. The line of reasoning was essentially that the meaning of Scripture is clear enough that anyone could understand it by simply reading it for oneself, and thus they rejected the idea that one needed the Churchs help in the process. This position is clearly stated by the Tubingen Lutheran Scholars who exchanged letters with Patriarch Jeremias II of Constantinople about thirty years after Luthers death:

Perhaps, someone will say that on the one hand, the Scriptures are absolutely free from error; but on the other hand, they have been concealed by much obscurity, so that without the interpretations of the Spirit-bearing Fathers they could not be clearly understood.... But meanwhile this, too, is very true that what has been said in a scarcely perceptible manner in some places in the Scriptures, has been stated in another place in them explicitly and most clearly so that even the most simple person can understand them.8

Though these Lutheran scholars claimed to use the writings of the Holy Fathers, they argued that they were unnecessary, and that, where they believed the Scriptures and the Holy Fathers conflicted, the Fathers were to be disregarded. What they were actually arguing, however, was that when the teachings of the Holy fathers conflict with their private opinions on the Scriptures, their private opinions were to be considered more authoritative than the Fathers of the Church. Rather than listening to the Fathers, who had shown themselves righteous and saintly, priority should be given to the human reasonings of the individual. The same human reason that has led the majority of modern Lutheran scholars to reject almost every teaching of Scripture (including the deity of Christ, the Resurrection, etc.), and even to reject the inspiration of the Scriptures themselves — on which the early Lutherans claimed to base their entire faith. In reply, Patriarch Jeremias II clearly exposed the true character of the Lutheran teachings:

Let us accept, then, the traditions of the Church with a sincere heart and not a multitude of rationalizations. For God created man to be upright; instead they sought after diverse ways of rationalizing (Ecclesiastes 7:29). Let us not allow ourselves to learn a new kind of faith which is condemned by the tradition of the Holy Fathers. For the Divine apostle says, "if anyone is preaching to you a Gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:9).9 B. THE DOCTRINE OF SOLA SCRIPTURA DOES NOT MEET ITS OWN CRITERIA

You might imagine that such a belief system as Protestantism, which has as its cardinal doctrine that Scripture alone is authoritative in matters of faith, would first seek to prove that this cardinal doctrine met its own criteria. One would probably expect that Protestants could brandish hundreds of proof-texts from the Scriptures to support this doctrine — upon which all else that they believe is based. At the very least one would hope that two or three solid text which clearly taught this doctrine could be found — since the Scriptures themselves say, "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established" (II Corinthians 13:1). Yet, like the boy in the fable who had to point out that the Emperor had no clothes on, I must point out that there is not one single verse in the entirety of Holy Scripture that teaches the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. There is not even one that comes close. Oh yes, there are innumerable places in the Bible that speak of its inspiration, of its authority, and of its profitability — but there is no place in the Bible that teaches that only Scripture is authoritative for believers. If such a teaching were even implicit, then surely the early Fathers of the Church would have taught this doctrine also, but which of the Holy Fathers ever taught such a thing? Thus Protestantisms most basic teaching self-destructs, being contrary to itself. But not only is the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura not taught in the Scriptures — it is in fact specifically contradicted by the Scriptures (which we have already discussed) that teach that Holy Tradition is also binding to Christians (II Thessalonians 2:15; I Corinthians 11:2). C. PROTESTANT INTERPRETIVE APPROACHES THAT DONT WORK

Even from the very earliest days of the Reformation, Protestants have been forced to deal with the fact that, given the Bible and the reason of the individual alone, people could not agree upon the meaning of many of the most basic questions of doctrine. Within Martin Luthers own life dozens of competing groups had arisen, all claiming to "just believe the Bible," but none agreeing on what the Bible said. Though Luther had courageously stood before the Diet of Worms and said that unless he were persuaded by Scripture, or by plain reason, he would not retract anything that he had been teaching; later, when Anabaptists, who disagreed with the Lutherans on a number of points, simply asked for the same indulgence, the Lutherans butchered them by the thousands — so much for the rhetoric about the "right of an individual to read the Scriptures for himself." Despite the obvious problems that the rapid splintering of Protestantism presented to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, not willing to concede defeat to the Pope, Protestants instead concluded that the real problem must be that those with whom they disagree, in other words every other sect but their own, must not be reading the Bible correctly. Thus a number of approaches have been set forth as solutions to this problem. Of course there has yet to be the approach that could reverse the endless multiplications of schisms, and yet Protestants still search for the elusive methodological "key" that will solve their problem. Let us examine the most popular approaches that have been tried thus far, each of which are still set forth by one group or another APPROACH # 1 Just take the Bible literally — the meaning is clear.

This approach was no doubt the first approach used by the Reformers, though very early on they came to realize that by itself this was an insufficient solution to the problems presented by the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Although this one was a failure from the start, this approach still is the most common one to be found among the less educated Fundamentalists, Evangelicals and Charismatics — "The Bible says what it means and means what it says," is an oft heard phrase. But when it comes to Scriptural texts that Protestants generally do not agree with, such as when Christ gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins (John 20:23), or when He said of the Eucharist "this is my body.... this is my blood" (Matthew 26:26,28), or when Paul taught that women should cover their heads in Church (I Corinthians 11:1-16), then all of a sudden the Bible doesnt say what it means any more — "Why, those verses arent literal..." APPROACH # 2 The Holy Spirit provides the correct understanding.

When presented with the numerous groups that arose under the banner of the Reformation that could not agree on their interpretations of the Scriptures, no doubt the second solution to the problem was the assertion that the Holy Spirit would guide the pious Protestant to interpret the Scriptures rightly. Of course everyone who disagreed with you could not possibly be guided by the same Spirit. The result was that each Protestant group de-Christianized all those that differed from them. Now if this approach were a valid one, that would only leave history with one group of Protestants that had rightly interpreted the Scriptures. But which of the thousands of denominations could it be? Of course the answer depends on which Protestant you are speaking to. One thing we can be sure of — he or she probably thinks his or her group is it.

Today, however, (depending on what stripe of Protestant you come into contact with) you are more likely to run into Protestants who have relativized the Truth to some degree or another than to find those who still maintain that their sect or splinter group is the "only one" which is "right." As denominations stacked upon denominations it became a correspondingly greater stretch for any of them to say, with a straight face, that only they had rightly understood the Scriptures, though there still are some who do. It has become increasingly common for each Protestant group to minimize the differences between denominations and simply conclude that in the name of "love" those differences "do not matter." Perhaps each group has "a piece of the Truth," but none has the whole Truth (so the reasoning goes). Thus the pan-heresy of Ecumenism had its birth. Now many "Christians" will not even stop their ecumenical efforts at allowing only Christian groups to have a piece of the Truth. Many "Christians" now also believe that all religions have "pieces of the Truth." The obvious conclusion that modern Protestants have made is that to find all the Truth each group will have to shed their "differences," pitch their "piece of Truth" into the pot, and presto-chango —the whole Truth will be found at last! APPROACH # 3 Let the clear passages interpret the unclear.

This must have seemed the perfect solution to the problem of how to interpret the Bible by itself — let the easily understood passages "interpret" those which are not clear. The logic of this approach is simple, though one passage may state a truth obscurely, surely the same truth would be clearly stated elsewhere in Scripture. Simply use these "clear passages" as the key and you will have unlocked the meaning of the "obscure passage." As the Tubingen Lutheran scholars argued in their first exchange of letters with Patriarch Jeremias II:

Therefore, no better way could ever be found to interpret the Scriptures, other than that Scripture be interpreted by Scripture, that is to say, through itself. For the entire Scripture has been dictated by the one and the same Spirit, who best understands his own will and is best able to state His own meaning.10

As promising as this method seemed, it soon proved an insufficient solution to the problem of Protestant chaos and divisions. The point at which this approach disintegrates is in determining which passages are "clear" and which are "obscure." Baptists, who believe that it is impossible for a Christian to lose his salvation once he is "saved," see a number of passages which they maintain quite clearly teach their doctrine of "Eternal Security" — for example, "For the gifts and callings of God are without repentance" (Romans 11:29), and "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:27-28). But when Baptists come across verses which seem to teach that salvation can be lost, such as "The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression" (Ezekiel 33:12), then they use the passages that are "clear" to explain away the passages that are "unclear." Methodists, who believe that believers may lose their salvation if they turn their backs on God, find no such obscurity in such passages, and on the contrary, view the above mentioned Baptist "proof-texts" in the light of the passages that they see as "clear." And so Methodists and Baptists throw verses of the Bible back and forth at each other, each wondering why the other cant "see" what seems very "clear" to them. APPROACH # 4 Historical-Critical Exegesis

Drowning in a sea of subjective opinion and division, Protestants quickly began grasping for any intellectual method with a fig leaf of objectivity. As time went by and divisions multiplied, science and reason increasingly became the standard by which Protestant theologians hoped to bring about consistency in their biblical interpretations. This "scientific" approach, which has come to predominate Protestant Scholarship, and in this century has even begun to predominate Roman Catholic Scholarship, is generaly referred to as "Historical-Critical Exegesis." With the dawn of the so-called "Enlightenment," science seemed to be capable of solving all the worlds problems. Protestant Scholarship began applying the philosophy and methodology of the sciences to theology and the Bible. Since the Enlightenment, Protestant scholars have analyzed every aspect of the Bible: its history, its manuscripts, the biblical languages, etc. As if the Holy Scriptures were an archaeological dig, these scholars sought to analyze each fragment and bone with the best and latest that science had to offer. To be fair, it must be stated that much useful knowledge was produced by such scholarship. Unfortunately this methodology has erred also, grievously and fundamentally, but it has been portrayed with such an aura of scientific objectivity that holds many under its spell.

Like all the other approaches used by Protestants, this method also seeks to understand the Bible while ignoring Church Tradition. Though there is no singular Protestant method of exegesis, they all have as their supposed goal to "let the Scripture speak for itself." Of course no one claiming to be Christian could be against what the Scripture would "say" if it were indeed "speaking for itself" through these methods. The problem is that those who appoint themselves as tongues for the Scripture filter it through their own Protestant assumptions. While claiming to be objective, they rather interpret the Scriptures according to their own sets of traditions and dogmas (be they fundamentalists or liberal rationalists). What Protestant scholars have done (if I may loosely borrow a line from Albert Schweitzer) is looked into the well of history to find the meaning of the Bible. They have written volume upon volume on the subject, but unfortunately they have only seen their own reflections.

Protestant scholars (both "liberals" and "conservatives" have erred in that they have misapplied empirical methodologies to the realm of theology and biblical studies. I use the term "Empiricism" to describe these efforts. I am using this term broadly to refer to the rationalistic and materialistic worldview that has possessed the Western mind, and is continuing to spread throughout the world. Positivist systems of thought (of which Empiricism is one) attempt to anchor themselves on some basis of "certain" knowledge. 11 Empiricism, strictly speaking, is the belief that all knowledge is based on experience, and that only things which can be established by means of scientific observation can be known with certainty. Hand in hand with the methods of observation and experience, came the principle of methodological doubt, the prime example of this being the philosophy of Rene Descartes who began his discussion of philosophy by showing that everything in the universe can be doubted except ones own existence, and so with the firm basis of this one undoubtable truth ("I think, therefore I am") he sought to build his system of philosophy. Now the Reformers, at first, were content with the assumption that the Bible was the basis of certainty upon which theology and philosophy could rest. But as the humanistic spirit of the Enlightenment gained in ascendancy, Protestant scholars turned their rationalistic methods on the Bible itself—seeking to discover what could be known with "certainty" from it. Liberal Protestant scholars have already finished this endeavor, and having "peeled back the onion" they now are left only with their own opinions and sentimentality as the basis for whatever faith they have left.

Conservative Protestants have been much less consistent in their rationalistic approach. Thus they have preserved among themselves a reverence for the Scriptures and a belief in their inspiration. Nevertheless, their approach (even among the most dogged Fundamentalists) is still essentially rooted in the same spirit of rationalism as the Liberals. A prime example of this is to be found among so-called Dispensational Fundamentalists, who hold to an elaborate theory which posits that at various stages in history God has dealt with man according to different "dispensations," such as the "Adamic dispensation," the "Noaic dispensation," the "Mosaic dispensation," the "Davidic dispensation," and so on. One can see that there is a degree of truth in this theory, but beyond these Old Testament dispensations they teach that currently we are under a different "dispensation" than were the Christians of the first century. Though miracles continued through the "New Testament period," they no longer occur today. This is very interesting, because (in addition to lacking any Scriptural basis) this theory allows these Fundamentalists to affirm the miracles of the Bible, while at the same time allowing them to be Empiricists in their everyday life. Thus, though the discussion of this approach may at first glance seem to be only of academic interest and far removed from the reality of dealing with the average Protestant, in fact, even the average, piously "conservative" Protestant laymen is not unaffected by this sort of rationalism.

The great fallacy in this so called "scientific" approach to the Scriptures lies in the fallacious application of empirical assumptions to the study of history, Scripture, and theology. Empirical methods work reasonably well when they are correctly applied to the natural sciences, but when they are applied where they cannot possibly work, such as in unique moments in history (which cannot be repeated or experimented upon), they cannot produce either consistent or accurate results.12 Scientists have yet to invent a telescope capable of peering into the spirit world, and yet many Protestant scholars assert that in the light of science the idea of the existence of demons or of the Devil has been disproved. Were the Devil to appear before an Empiricist with pitch fork in hand and clad in bright red underwear, it would be explained in some manner that would easily comport to the scientists worldview. Although such Empiricists pride themselves on their "openness", they are blinded by their assumptions to such an extent that they cannot see anything that does not fit their vision of reality. If the methods of empiricism were consistently applied it would discredit all knowledge (including itself), but empiricism is conveniently permitted to be inconsistent by those who hold to it "because its ruthless mutilation of human experience lends it such a high reputation for scientific severity that its prestige overrides the defectiveness of its own foundations."13

The connections between the extreme conclusions that modern liberal Protestant scholars have come to, and the more conservative or Fundamentalist Protestants will not seem clear to many — least of all to conservative Fundamentalists! Though these conservatives see themselves as being in almost complete opposition to Protestant liberalism, they nonetheless use essentially the same kinds of methods in their study of the Scriptures as do the liberals, and along with these methodologies come their underlying philosophical assumptions. Thus the difference between the "liberals" and the "conservatives" is not in reality a difference of basic assumptions, but rather a difference in how far they have taken them to their inherent conclusions

If Protestant exegesis were truly "scientific," as it presents itself to be, its results would show consistency. If its methods were merely unbiased "technologies" (as many view them) then it would not matter who used them, they would "work" the same for everyone. But what do we find when we examine current status of Protestant biblical studies? In the estimation of the "experts" themselves, Protestant biblical scholarship is in a crisis. 14 In fact this crisis is perhaps best illustrated by the admission of a recognized Protestant Old Testament scholar, Gerhad Hasel [in his survey of the history and current status of the discipline of Old Testament theology, Old Testament Theology: Issues in the Current Debate], that during the 1970s five new Old Testament theologies had been produced "but not one agrees in approach and method with any of the others."15 In fact, it is amazing, considering the self-proclaimed high standard of scholarship in Protestant biblical studies, that you can take your pick of limitless conclusions on almost any issue and find "good scholarship" to back it up. In other words, you can just about come to any conclusion that suits you on a particular day or issue, and you can find a Ph.D. who will advocate it. This is certainly not science in the same sense as mathematics or chemistry! What we are dealing with is a field of learning that presents itself as "objective science," but which in fact is a pseudo-science, concealing a variety of competing philosophical and theological perspectives. It is pseudoscience because until scientists develop instruments capable of examining and understanding God, objective scientific theology or biblical interpretation is an impossibility. This is not to say that there is nothing that is genuinely scholarly or useful within it; but this is to say that, camouflaged with these legitimate aspects of historical and linguistic learning, and hidden by the fog machines and mirrors of pseudo-science, we discover in reality that Protestant methods of biblical interpretation are both the product and the servant of Protestant theological and philosophical assumptions.16

With subjectivity that surpasses the most speculative Freudian psychoanalysts, Protestant scholars selectively choose the "facts" and "evidence" that suits their agenda and then proceed, with their conclusions essentially predetermined by their basic assumptions, to apply their methods to the Holy Scriptures. All the while, the Protestant scholars, both "liberal" and "conservative," describe themselves as dispassionate "scientists."17 And since modern universities do not give out Ph.D.s to those who merely pass on the unadulterated Truth, these scholars seek to out-do each other by coming up with new "creative" theories. This is the very essence of heresy: novelty, arrogant personal opinion, and self-deception.


TOPICS: Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Orthodox Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; catholicwhiners; moapb; solascriptura
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Posted not as a bashing attempt!!! I am intensely interested in what others here think about the description of novelty as heresy in the last line.

This is an excerpt although I was unable to check it because it is so long. The rest of it at the site is not relevant imo.

1 posted on 02/22/2010 10:34:43 AM PST by MarMema
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To: MarMema

I would think that the millions upon millions of men and women who were saved under the doctrine of “SOLA SCRIPTURA” in the various Protestant Churches and are now in Heaven rejoicing with their Lord and Savior would have something totally different to say on the subject.

As for me, God Saved my soul and changed my heart without the benifit of the Catholic Church’s “Tradition” and I know I’m going to heaven.


2 posted on 02/22/2010 10:39:01 AM PST by SoConPubbie
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To: MarMema

Well, let’s see, nothing in Scripture says priests can’t be pedophiles, and the word “priest” doesn’t even exist in Scripture, so, I’m guessing that those who think stuff not in Scripture think this perversion is okay, right?


3 posted on 02/22/2010 10:41:10 AM PST by ConservativeMind (Hypocrisy: "Animal rightists" who eat meat & pen up pets while accusing hog farmers of cruelty.)
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To: ConservativeMind; MarMema

I mean, the word “priest” doesn’t appear in the New Testament church, Israel obviously had them.


4 posted on 02/22/2010 10:42:54 AM PST by ConservativeMind (Hypocrisy: "Animal rightists" who eat meat & pen up pets while accusing hog farmers of cruelty.)
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To: MarMema

2 Timothy 3:16-17, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”


5 posted on 02/22/2010 10:50:28 AM PST by DarthVader (Liberalism is the politics of EVIL whose time of judgment has come.)
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To: MarMema

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for corrections, for instruction in righteousness.... (2Tim. 3.16) There is plenty of room for traditions, differences among cultures and embellishments. If there is a question of correctness or permissibility, scripture rules. I don’t expect the churches of today to follow this, and some that try can’t agree on doctrine and theology, but any Christian who is serious about following Christ has no choice but to stand firmly on scripture. Anything else is something else.


6 posted on 02/22/2010 10:59:42 AM PST by pallis
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To: MarMema

bookmark


7 posted on 02/22/2010 11:01:48 AM PST by nralife
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To: ConservativeMind

Presbuteros most certainly IS in the New Testament and that is the root word of the word ‘priest’.


8 posted on 02/22/2010 11:03:51 AM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: MarMema
Given the number of anti-sola scriptura threads today, I'd say it's attack sola scriptura day... As far as the actual position goes, see post 5 with the verse from 2 Tim 3:16-17. Scripture alone is sufficient for salvation. Scripture says so. Sola scriptura says that Scripture alone is sufficient for salvation. End of story.
9 posted on 02/22/2010 11:05:11 AM PST by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: MarMema

Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

And the church (not just Catholic) has come to do likewise “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition” only if the church would hold tradition to the light of the word of God and do as the Bareans.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


10 posted on 02/22/2010 11:06:53 AM PST by the_daug
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To: MarMema

Have you read the works of the Protestant reformers Martin Luther, Jean Calvin, Hulydrych Zwingli they were written in Latin.

how are you interpreting Sola Scriptura here is an understanding that I learned in seminary regarding sola scriptura it is just one of the five pillars or fundamentals of the Protestant Reformers

here is how Sola scriptura is utilized the adjective Sola and the noun scriptura are in the ablative case rather than the nominative case to indicate that the Bible does not stand alone apart from God, but rather that its is the instruemnt of God by which he reveals himself for salvation through faith in Christ (solus Christus or solo Christo)
the five pillars are
sola Scriptura “by sripture alone”
sola fide “ by faith alone”
sola gratia “ by grace alone”
Solus Christus or Solo Christo “Christ alone” or “through Christ alone”
Solio deo Gloria “ glory to God Alone” post again with all five pillars and discussion.

Martin Luther posted 95 Theses to the Wittenberg Debate. I understand you seire a debate. but place the entire Five Pillars (Latin Phrases) online for debate and ask people whom are theologians from different protestant faiths, greek and russian orthodox and roman cathoilc and you may get a theological debate.


11 posted on 02/22/2010 11:08:47 AM PST by hondact200 (hondact200 No to Socialism - Michigan destroyed by Progressive Liberal Populism)
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To: vladimir998

Uh, what does “kohen” mean in Greek, then, and why is this used in the Old Testament for “priest” and not in the New Testament?

Because the actual term in the New Testament you are claiming as “priest” means “elder.”


12 posted on 02/22/2010 11:20:42 AM PST by ConservativeMind (Hypocrisy: "Animal rightists" who eat meat & pen up pets while accusing hog farmers of cruelty.)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

You wrote:

“Given the number of anti-sola scriptura threads today, I’d say it’s attack sola scriptura day...”

You need to learn to read. Today is the 22nd. Go back through the threads and you’ll see there are EXACTLY two, that’s TWO (2) threads against sola scriptura. Just TWO.

bogusname, on the other hand, posted no fewer than three anti-Catholic posts. So, using your logic, we see that today is actually anti-Catholic day.


13 posted on 02/22/2010 11:21:09 AM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: DarthVader

It looks to me like the author of the article doesn’t understand the historic meaning of Sola Scriptora. I would direct him, and all interested, to a great book by Keith Mattison entitled “The Shape of Sola Scriptora” in it he looks at historically what was meant by the reformers when it cam to the doctrine of Sola Scriptora and how today it has been abused by evangelicals.
I agree with Sola Scriptora wholeheartedly and it in no way, historicaaly, undermines tradition. It simply means that all that is necessary for salvation is found plainly in scripture. What we need to know to live the Christian life as pleasing to God is found plainly in scripture. Nothing more Nothing less. Those who try to refute this have never been able to answer this question that I pose.

“What doctrine that needs to be believed for salvation is NOT found in scripture??” No one who denies Sola Scriptora has ever answered that. There is none. All that is needed to be believed is found in scripture.

Sola scriptora does not deny the importance of tradition BUT it does make tradition subservient to scripture. If a tradition is not found in scripture it does not have to be believed and cannot hold the conscience of the believer bound.
For example if Scripture teaches Doctrine A and tradition teaches Doctrine A then doctrine A must be believed (The Ressurection of Jesus as and example.
If tradition teaches Doctrine B but Scripture does NOT teach doctrine, or address it, then the believer does not have to believe (or practice) Doctrine B (No meat on friday as an example). The conscience of the believer is not bound to the tradition.
If tradition teaches Doctrine C but Scripture contradicts Doctrine C then Doctrine C is to be rejected. (Immaculate Conception as an example).

That is Sola Scriptura quick and easy


14 posted on 02/22/2010 11:23:39 AM PST by polishprince
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To: vladimir998

Actually it means Elder. There is a specific greek word for priest and it is not presbuteros


15 posted on 02/22/2010 11:23:40 AM PST by polishprince
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To: MarMema

bttt


16 posted on 02/22/2010 11:25:36 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Matka Boska de Guadalupe!)
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To: ConservativeMind; Terabitten
Well, let’s see, nothing in Scripture says priests can’t be pedophiles, and the word “priest” doesn’t even exist in Scripture, so, I’m guessing that those who think stuff not in Scripture think this perversion is okay, right?

Care to speak to this, terrabitten?

17 posted on 02/22/2010 11:25:38 AM PST by Judith Anne (2012 Sarah Palin/Duncan Hunter 2012)
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To: ConservativeMind

That’s genius, right there.


18 posted on 02/22/2010 11:30:08 AM PST by Trailerpark Badass (One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain.)
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To: polishprince

Very astute and well explained.


19 posted on 02/22/2010 11:33:10 AM PST by DarthVader (Liberalism is the politics of EVIL whose time of judgment has come.)
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To: MarMema
Is All Scripture given by inspiration of God, as Paul wrote, and thus profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, or are some other words, verbal or written?

Paul did not say this about the conversations that he and Timothy had in their fireside chats, or anything else, only Scripture, just Scripture, solely Scripture. It was "Scripture alone" that Paul said these things about -- nothing else.

20 posted on 02/22/2010 11:35:01 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: polishprince

You wrote:

“Actually it means Elder.”

When did I say otherwise?

“There is a specific greek word for priest and it is not presbuteros”

Again, when did I say otherwise? I said: “Presbuteros most certainly IS in the New Testament and that is the root word of the word ‘priest’.”


21 posted on 02/22/2010 11:37:59 AM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: MarMema
This is the very essence of heresy: novelty, arrogant personal opinion, and self-deception.

Pot, kettle, black.

22 posted on 02/22/2010 11:38:03 AM PST by ctdonath2 (Pelosi is practically President; the Obama is just her talk show host.)
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To: ConservativeMind

You wrote:

“Uh, what does “kohen” mean in Greek, then, and why is this used in the Old Testament for “priest” and not in the New Testament?”

Presbuteros is in the New Testament. From it comes the word priest.

“Because the actual term in the New Testament you are claiming as “priest” means “elder.””

I never claimed it as “priest” - not once, ever. I said: Presbuteros most certainly IS in the New Testament and from it we get the word priest. All of that is undeniable.


23 posted on 02/22/2010 11:42:19 AM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: polishprince

Nicely put.

Even more succinct: “why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?” (Matt. 15:3)


24 posted on 02/22/2010 11:43:35 AM PST by ctdonath2 (Pelosi is practically President; the Obama is just her talk show host.)
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To: vladimir998
I'm sorry, I see at least three:

Sola Scriptura - In the Vanity of their Minds
Disagreement Among Protestants and Sola Scriptura
Scripture Alone Disproves "Scripture Alone" (Sola Scriptura)

And there are a few others taking protestants to task for the concept of sola scriptura, but those deal with more than just that concept. So that's three threads dedicated SOLELY to attacking the concept of sola scriptura, not as asides or within other context, just pure and direct. Seems rather high for not even being Noon yet...

But that is besides the point; the point is that scripture claims it is sufficient for salvation, which IS sola scriptura; 2 Tim 3:16-17 is pretty explicit, is it not?

25 posted on 02/22/2010 11:44:40 AM PST by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: Judith Anne; ConservativeMind
Well, let’s see, nothing in Scripture says priests can’t be pedophiles, and the word “priest” doesn’t even exist in Scripture, so, I’m guessing that those who think stuff not in Scripture think this perversion is okay, right?

CM - although I see your point, there's no need to be rude about it. Just so you know the background, JA and I were talking on another thread about how little Christianity we typically see on "Christian" threads.

JudithAnne - with all due respect, although CM was being rude and could have used a different (better) example, it's also true that if we go about looking for offense, we're certain to find it.

26 posted on 02/22/2010 11:46:33 AM PST by Terabitten (Vets wrote a blank check, payable to the Constitution, for an amount up to and including their life.)
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To: MarMema

There is a difference between source and interpretation. We all agree that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God, and that it is sufficient for showing us the way to salvation and how to live a godly life. The problem is interpretation. The Protestant idea that everyone has the authority to read and to interpret Scripture on his own has been a source of the fragmentation within Protestantism. Protestantism has no single teaching authority that determines the correct interpretation of Scripture and the development of doctrine. The only alternative that the Lutherans had was to advocate those educated in theological studies. It is a mess. The question is whether or not there is a viable alternative. Councils and church fathers are not without error. Apostolic succession is no guarantee of truth. As I see it, Christianity does not have a solution to this horrible problem


27 posted on 02/22/2010 11:48:15 AM PST by Nosterrex
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To: Terabitten
JudithAnne - with all due respect, although CM was being rude and could have used a different (better) example, it's also true that if we go about looking for offense, we're certain to find it.

It's on every thread. I wasn't "looking" for it.

Did you reproach the instigator?

28 posted on 02/22/2010 11:48:39 AM PST by Judith Anne (2012 Sarah Palin/Duncan Hunter 2012)
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To: Judith Anne
Did you reproach the instigator?

Yes - publicly, and in my response posted above. I respectfully told him/her that he was being rude by using such a crass example.

29 posted on 02/22/2010 11:52:25 AM PST by Terabitten (Vets wrote a blank check, payable to the Constitution, for an amount up to and including their life.)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

Wrong. “Disagreement Among Protestants and Sola Scriptura” is written by an anti-Catholic, Dr. Joe Mizza. “Just for Catholics” is a false-flag website against Catholics, full of bigotry.


30 posted on 02/22/2010 11:52:39 AM PST by Judith Anne (2012 Sarah Palin/Duncan Hunter 2012)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

You wrote:

“I’m sorry, I see at least three:”

Then you’re not paying attention. This one -
Disagreement Among Protestants and Sola Scriptura - was written by an anti-Catholic. Look at the source.

“And there are a few others taking protestants to task for the concept of sola scriptura, but those deal with more than just that concept.”

No. There are EXACTLY two threads - and two only - when I first posted about this where the thread opener is against sola scriptura. Exactly TWO. And, unlike you, I actuall read the threads and did not mistake an anti-Catholic one as an anti-Sola scriptura one. I suggest you pay more attention before you make any grand statements covering the whole of the religion forum for today.


31 posted on 02/22/2010 11:54:07 AM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Judith Anne
OK then, I see inside that thread multiple attacks on sola scriptura. I guess our backgrounds mean we see different things within those threads.

That said, what about 2 Tim 3:16-17 as it addresses the sufficient nature of scripture for salvation?

32 posted on 02/22/2010 11:55:32 AM PST by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: Terabitten

Thank you. I wonder if you will bother to continue with that, though. It gets tiring keeping up with all the vicious anti-Catholic stuff, right?


33 posted on 02/22/2010 11:56:29 AM PST by Judith Anne (2012 Sarah Palin/Duncan Hunter 2012)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
OK then, I see inside that thread multiple attacks on sola scriptura.

GASP!! You mean, the Catholics had the NERVE to defend themselves, after being attacked?

34 posted on 02/22/2010 11:58:26 AM PST by Judith Anne (2012 Sarah Palin/Duncan Hunter 2012)
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To: vladimir998

Vladimer Below is what you wrote...

Presbuteros most certainly IS in the New Testament and that is the root word of the word ‘priest’.

Presbuterous means elder and not priest... It is not the root word for priest at all. The greek word priest is a different word entirely


35 posted on 02/22/2010 12:00:01 PM PST by polishprince
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To: vladimir998

Matt 16:21
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders (presbuteros) and chief priests (archiereoon)and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

You need to show where elder is a root for priest... it never happens there are many other verses where elder and priest occur together and are differentiated


36 posted on 02/22/2010 12:00:03 PM PST by polishprince
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
That said, what about 2 Tim 3:16-17 as it addresses the sufficient nature of scripture for salvation?

First see the beam in your own eye. Then maybe we can talk.

37 posted on 02/22/2010 12:00:40 PM PST by Judith Anne (2012 Sarah Palin/Duncan Hunter 2012)
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To: Judith Anne
Thank you. I wonder if you will bother to continue with that, though. It gets tiring keeping up with all the vicious anti-Catholic stuff, right?

You're welcome. In all honesty, I likely won't keep it up. I don't bother posting much on the RF because of the stunning lack of basic civility on both sides... and I'm not a Religion Mod. If I were, there'd be a lot more folks banned.

38 posted on 02/22/2010 12:00:43 PM PST by Terabitten (Vets wrote a blank check, payable to the Constitution, for an amount up to and including their life.)
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To: MarMema
Posted not as a bashing attempt!!!

If that was your intent, then this would qualify as an Epic Fail.

Lame.

39 posted on 02/22/2010 12:01:02 PM PST by FateAmenableToChange
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To: Judith Anne; vladimir998
I guess you two would rather argue about who threw the first stone than the actual concept of sola scriptura; so be it, your hesitancy to address the issue at hand speaks volumes.

Have a good day, God bless...

40 posted on 02/22/2010 12:03:39 PM PST by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: Terabitten

So, it’s fine with you if the bigots keep it up. Understood.


41 posted on 02/22/2010 12:09:16 PM PST by Judith Anne (2012 Sarah Palin/Duncan Hunter 2012)
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To: polishprince
You wrote: "Vladimer Below is what you wrote..." I know EXACTLY what I wrote. "Presbuterous means elder and not priest..." Presbuteros is the word from which we get the word priest. It is not a translation and I never claimed it was. This is what the Merriam-Webster points out - and which you seem completely unaware of: "Etymology: Middle English preist, from Old English prēost, ultimately from Late Latin presbyter — more at presbyter." Late Latin presbyter is FROM the Koine Greek presbuteros. Thus, "priest" is from "presbuteros." "It is not the root word for priest at all." Gee, you better tell the experts at Merriam Webster. "The greek word priest is a different word entirely." Learn to READ. Here it is again: "Etymology: Middle English preist, from Old English prēost, ultimately from Late Latin presbyter — more at presbyter."
42 posted on 02/22/2010 12:12:04 PM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: polishprince

I already did. You people need to buy dictionaries, study foreign languages and get a clue!


43 posted on 02/22/2010 12:13:52 PM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
I guess you two would rather argue about who threw the first stone than the actual concept of sola scriptura; so be it, your hesitancy to address the issue at hand speaks volumes.

Vlad and I are in agreement. You have yet to admit that one of the three threads you posted links to was a non-Catholic, pro-sola scriptura thread. You have yet to admit that Catholics on that thread have a right to defend their beliefs.

No Catholic is hesitant to address sola scriptura. We just wonder WHAT IS THE POINT, when we've done it for years? It becomes a game, with protties demanding we address it, over and over and over and over and over. Tomorrow it will probably be some accusation of Mary worship. Again.

So, why should we bother? A better question to ask is, why can't the protties get it through their thick skulls, we believe differently, and we do NOT have to defend our beliefs, and we WILL fight back when we want to?

Things that make you go, "hmmmmm......"

44 posted on 02/22/2010 12:14:46 PM PST by Judith Anne (2012 Sarah Palin/Duncan Hunter 2012)
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To: Judith Anne
So, it’s fine with you if the bigots keep it up. Understood.

No, JudithAnne. I simply don't have the time to spend all day, every day, seeking out and reproving those who don't act much like Christians. That's what the Religion Mods are for. When I see it, I say something. But, as I posted before, I don't come on the RF much because damn near everyone acts like a brat. However, when I notice it, I have (and will continue to) say something.

45 posted on 02/22/2010 12:15:43 PM PST by Terabitten (Vets wrote a blank check, payable to the Constitution, for an amount up to and including their life.)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

You wrote:

“I guess you two would rather argue about who threw the first stone than the actual concept of sola scriptura;”

Judith is a much better person than I am so I am not speaking for her when I say this: anti-Catholics here show themselves to be small, narrow-minded people here at FR. You were wrong. You only admitted it after you were beaten over the head with it. And the end result is the same: there is much more anti-Catholic stuff here TODAY and probably everyday than anti-Sola scriptura stuff.

“so be it, your hesitancy to address the issue at hand speaks volumes.”

Your inability to get things right speaks louder than anything I have said or left unsaid.


46 posted on 02/22/2010 12:18:25 PM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Terabitten

Thanks. A drop in the ocean.


47 posted on 02/22/2010 12:19:11 PM PST by Judith Anne (2012 Sarah Palin/Duncan Hunter 2012)
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To: vladimir998

Vladimir

No offense but I am not using the Webster dictionary of English words... I am using the greek Concordance where in the Greek.. the language that the NT was written in...there IS a difference between the words... that is the point... so in the original languages there is a difference and that is what matters to the discussion


48 posted on 02/22/2010 12:20:32 PM PST by polishprince
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To: vladimir998

Vlad. I am not better than anyone. I am the least.


49 posted on 02/22/2010 12:21:51 PM PST by Judith Anne (2012 Sarah Palin/Duncan Hunter 2012)
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To: polishprince

You wrote:

“No offense but I am not using the Webster dictionary of English words...”

No offense but we are writing in English and talking about an English word - priest - which is from the Greek presbuteros.

“I am using the greek Concordance where in the Greek.. the language that the NT was written in...there IS a difference between the words... that is the point... so in the original languages there is a difference and that is what matters to the discussion”

Priest was the word mentioned. Presbuteros is mentioned in the NT and it is the word from which “priest” is derived.


50 posted on 02/22/2010 12:22:49 PM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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