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Benedict XVI’s presser on plane to Portugal, clerical crisis and “third secret” (Catholic Caucus)
WDTPRS ^ | 05/11/2010 | Father Z.

Posted on 05/11/2010 8:01:55 AM PDT by Pyro7480

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Fascinating...
1 posted on 05/11/2010 8:01:56 AM PDT by Pyro7480
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To: Siobhan; Canticle_of_Deborah; NYer; Salvation; american colleen; Desdemona; StAthanasiustheGreat; ..

Catholic ping!


2 posted on 05/11/2010 8:03:10 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480
attacks against the pope or the church don’t come just from outside the church.

Yes, such as Vatican II. "It will be clearer after 1960".

3 posted on 05/11/2010 8:08:26 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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To: Pyro7480

Sure sounds like we didn’t get the whole secret.


4 posted on 05/11/2010 8:09:43 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: bigcat32; Pyro7480; Religion Moderator

This is a caucus, go discuss why churches shouldn’t have crosses on top of them somewhere else.


6 posted on 05/11/2010 8:14:54 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: bigcat32; Religion Moderator

This is a Caucus thread. Please play by the rules. If you don’t know what they are, look at the Religion Moderator’s profile.


7 posted on 05/11/2010 8:15:23 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

Absolutely fascinating!

**but a fundamental response: permanent conversion, penance, prayer, and the three cardinal virtues: faith, hope and charity. One sees there the true, fundamental response the church must give, which each of us individually must give, in this situation.**

Also the attacks from within the church comment.


8 posted on 05/11/2010 8:15:30 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation; Pyro7480
Also the attacks from within the church comment.

I wonder if that was some sort of veiled jab at Schönborn.

9 posted on 05/11/2010 8:19:23 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: wagglebee

The wolves are both inside and outside the Church.


11 posted on 05/11/2010 8:23:33 AM PDT by Lorica
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To: bigcat32
Please read the writings of St. John Damascene on why the veneration of sacred images is not idolatry: APOLOGIA OF ST JOHN DAMASCENE AGAINST THOSE WHO DECRY HOLY IMAGES
12 posted on 05/11/2010 8:24:39 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Lorica

I pray that Benedict XVI is exactly the right man at the right time.


13 posted on 05/11/2010 8:31:58 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: Pyro7480

I mean this totally sincerely and respectfully, why does this matter? I don’t understand the whole hoopla about the third secret. Maybe it was totally revealed, maybe it wasn’t. Does it really matter?

I’ve never understood the fervor that Fatima inspires. I’m much more Tepeyac Hill gal myself.


14 posted on 05/11/2010 8:35:57 AM PDT by mockingbyrd (Remember in November.)
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To: wagglebee

That was too funny! LOL


15 posted on 05/11/2010 8:40:01 AM PDT by Irisshlass
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To: Pyro7480
Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the theological commentary at the time of the release of the "Third Secret" in 2000. But I’ve read several times that the interpretation of the vision as applying to the assassination attempt on JPII was contrived and advanced unilaterally by the Secretary of State at the time, not Cardinal Ratzinger.

In which case, the statement that “The important point is that the message of Fatima in its substance is not addressed to particular situations” could be interpreted as a repudiation of that interpretation by Pope Benedict XVI.

16 posted on 05/11/2010 8:49:27 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: mockingbyrd
I don’t understand the whole hoopla about the third secret. Maybe it was totally revealed, maybe it wasn’t. Does it really matter? I’ve never understood the fervor that Fatima inspires.

I would guess the fact that it concerns these days would be part of it, that and the Miracle of the Sun.

I’m much more Tepeyac Hill gal myself.

That's perfectly legitimate. I myself hope to venerate the Tilma.

17 posted on 05/11/2010 8:51:57 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480
I would guess the fact that it concerns these days would be part of it, that and the Miracle of the Sun.

How so? Is that just the assumption, or is it known somehow? And how does the Miracle of the Sun fit in?

18 posted on 05/11/2010 8:55:06 AM PDT by mockingbyrd (Remember in November.)
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To: mockingbyrd
Well, in one of the visions at Fatima, Our Lady predicted that during the pontificate of Pius XI, that a second world war would begin, and that a sign in the sky would signal this (I'm paraphrasing). In January 1938, a very unusual aurora appeared in the sky, weeks before Hitler annexed Austria.

As for the Miracle of the Sun, the fact that 70,000 witnessed it, religious and atheist alike, underscored the veracity of the message. According to one devotee, she [Our Lady] did this to underscore the fact that Fatima is one of the most important if not the most important message she has ever given in history."

19 posted on 05/11/2010 9:11:57 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

Oh....you were talking about why the strong devotion to Fatima. I thought you were talking about the third secret. I’m off to get some coffee....provided the children don’t kill themselves first, sounds like I should investigate.


20 posted on 05/11/2010 9:32:20 AM PDT by mockingbyrd (Remember in November.)
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To: mockingbyrd

Godspeed. :-)


21 posted on 05/11/2010 9:39:41 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
In which case, the statement that “The important point is that the message of Fatima in its substance is not addressed to particular situations” could be interpreted as a repudiation of that interpretation by Pope Benedict XVI.

That's exactly how I read it. especially since he preceded it by stating:

With regard to this great vision of the suffering of the popes, beyond [!] the circumstances of John Paul II, other realities are indicated which over time will develop and become clear.

It certainly sounds to me that the Holy Father is saying that the interpretation we received earlier was false and the Third Secret has not yet been revealed.

22 posted on 05/11/2010 9:41:18 AM PDT by pgkdan (I Miss Ronald Reagan!)
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; ...

Ping!


23 posted on 05/11/2010 9:41:23 AM PDT by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: wagglebee
Also the attacks from within the church comment.

I wonder if that was some sort of veiled jab at Schönborn.

What, the guy (did I spell that right?) defending "homosexual relationships"?

A reasonable person could certainly interpret it as a jab ...

24 posted on 05/11/2010 9:41:48 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: mockingbyrd
That's because you know nothing about it. Fr. X said in the 1970’s that scarcely 1% of Catholics know about Fatima.

The experts on the 3rd secret have concluded that the 3rd secret spoke of the apostacy of the Bishops at and after Vatican II. The total loss of the faith by Catholics. Maybe

The 3 children visionaries said that there would be a miracle on a day and hour. That day and hour 70,000 saw the miracle. Ever heard of a miracle being forecast day and hour?

The Blessed Mother told the children months before the bolshevic revolution , that Russia would spread her errors throughout the world and many nations would be annihilated. Sound important?

Since the death of Pius XII, the hierarchy in the Vatican have not been reliable sources for information on the messages of Fatima. John XXIII did not reveal the 3rd secret in 1960 as was requested of him by the Blessed Mother, and every since then it's more of the same from the Vatican hierarchy.

For anyone that wants to know about Fatima, should read the 3 volume set by Frere Michel De La Sainte Trinite:

The Whole Truth About Fatima: Volume I Science and the Facts

The Whole Truth about Fatima, Volume II: The Secret and the Church

The Whole Truth about Fatima: Volume III: The Third Secret

25 posted on 05/11/2010 9:57:34 AM PDT by Leoni
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To: mockingbyrd
That's because you know nothing about it. Fr. X said in the 1970’s that scarcely 1% of Catholics know about Fatima.

The experts on the 3rd secret have concluded that the 3rd secret spoke of the apostasy of the Bishops at and after Vatican II. The total loss of the faith by Catholics.

The 3 children visionaries said that there would be a miracle on a day and hour. That day and hour 70,000 saw the miracle. Ever heard of a miracle being forecast day and hour?

The Blessed Mother told the children months before the Bolshevik revolution , that Russia would spread her errors throughout the world and many nations would be annihilated. Sound important?

Since the death of Pius XII, the hierarchy in the Vatican have not been reliable sources for information on the messages of Fatima. John XXIII did not reveal the 3rd secret in 1960 as was requested of him by the Blessed Mother, and every since then it's more of the same from the Vatican hierarchy.

For anyone that wants to know about Fatima, should read the 3 volume set by Frere Michel De La Sainte Trinite:

The Whole Truth About Fatima: Volume I Science and the Facts

The Whole Truth about Fatima, Volume II: The Secret and the Church

The Whole Truth about Fatima: Volume III: The Third Secret

26 posted on 05/11/2010 9:59:33 AM PDT by Leoni
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

>>But I’ve read several times that the interpretation of the vision as applying to the assassination attempt on JPII was contrived and advanced unilaterally by the Secretary of State at the time, not Cardinal Ratzinger. <<

I think it would be very easy to say that JPII was “mistaken” in his interpretation of the Third Secret.


27 posted on 05/11/2010 10:30:01 AM PDT by netmilsmom (I am inyenzi on the Religion Forum)
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To: Pyro7480
Typical post Vatican II speak, where words are used to confuse rather than communicate. Seems like God has chosen these Vatican II popes who are reluctant to teach clearly for fear of being rejected so that the world will not be further condemned for rejecting clear teachings:

"To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without, all things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand: lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them"

Everyone is "without".

28 posted on 05/11/2010 10:31:07 AM PDT by Leoni
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To: Pyro7480

I’ve always thought the explanation they gave for the third secret made it pretty pointless.


29 posted on 05/11/2010 10:31:46 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Lorica; Pyro7480; wagglebee
"The wolves are both inside and outside the Church."

"I wonder if that was some sort of veiled jab at Schönborn."

"The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres (other priests). Churches and altars will be sacked. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord."

Source:

http://www.theworkofgod.org/Aparitns/Akita.htm#Messages

30 posted on 05/11/2010 10:56:07 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: Leoni

Actually, I know quite a bit about Fatima. But it is private revelation and it hasn’t played a significant role in my spiritual life. And that’s fine, the church has always taught that you should study and pursue private, approved revelations only if they benefit your soul. And the message of Fatima doesn’t speak to everyone.

And I don’t believe that the hierarchy of the Church are working to suppress the wishes of Our Lady. I just don’t, I have more faith in the promises of Christ than that.


31 posted on 05/11/2010 11:08:29 AM PDT by mockingbyrd (Remember in November.)
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To: GonzoII
June, 1988—Vatican City—Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, gives definitive judgement on the Akita events and messages as reliable and worthy of belief. --Link
32 posted on 05/11/2010 11:20:51 AM PDT by mlizzy ("Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person" --Mother Teresa.)
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To: GonzoII

You read my mind about Akita. It was then-Cardinal Ratzinger who once confirmed that the messages of Fatima and Akita were essentially the same.


33 posted on 05/11/2010 11:51:22 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Leoni
Typical post Vatican II speak, where words are used to confuse rather than communicate

Who/what are you talking about here?

34 posted on 05/11/2010 11:52:32 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480; Religion Moderator
"You read my mind about Akita."

I categorically deny that I read his mind ;0)

35 posted on 05/11/2010 12:14:30 PM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII; Religion Moderator

LOL!


36 posted on 05/11/2010 12:18:46 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

The greatest persecution of the church doesn’t come from enemies on the outside, but is born in sin within the church.

&&
So true.

Yes, we do all need to relearn. B16 is so inspiring.


37 posted on 05/11/2010 12:46:23 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Palin/Hunter 2012 -- Bolton their Secretary of State)
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To: Pyro7480

At the bottom of iconoclasm then and now is a repudiation of the Incarnation. Originally it was a response of criticisms by the Muslims. Today it is the response of liberal Christians to the philosophic materialism of liberal skeptics. In each case, it concedes that Christ is not king, that he has left us alone.


38 posted on 05/11/2010 1:07:59 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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—EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW—


Bishop Bernard Fellay on the

Rosary Crusade and Doctrinal Talks 

Nearly 20,000,000 Rosaries offered to Holy Father

from Traditional Catholics Worldwide!

 

By Brian Mershon

REMNANT COLUMNIST, South Carolina

(Posted 05/11/10 www.RemnantNewspaper.com)

Bishop Bernard Fellay, SSPX, greets the Holy Father

Houston, Texas—Superior General Bishop Bernard Fellay of the Society of St. Pius X recently spoke to The Remnant in an exclusive interview following the completion of their third Rosary crusade for the Holy Father on March 25, 2010. Despite Cardinal Kasper’s most recent obvious attempt to “poison the well” and upend the ongoing discussions with the Society’s theologians and representatives of the Holy See (talks in which, it should be noted, he has no role whatsoever), the Holy Father will visit Fatima this week and deliver an intense message.

Our Blessed Mother cannot be circumvented when it comes to answering prayers as she so wills as the mediatrix of all graces. Let us pray, then, that the Holy Father’s message at Fatima this week will be an answer to the most recent rosary crusade for the intention of the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Hear of Mary and for the Triumph of her Immaculate Heart. Five and half million rosaries from the U.S. and a total of 19,142,065 rosaries by Traditionalist Catholics worldwide have been offered for this intention.  We thank His Excellency most sincerely for taking time away from his busy schedule to answer a few questions.  

Brian Mershon: Your Excellency, what is your reaction to the Society’s request for 12 million rosaries with a result of more than 19 million actually being offered?

Bishop Fellay: First of all, I am very, very happy to see such enthusiasm and such an answer to our call. I’m certain that this number isn’t only from the Society’s faithful; I’m sure that many many others have joined for whom we don’t have the total figures. That’s the first thing.

Secondly, I’m pleased with the enthusiasm for understanding the importance of this matter. This subject matter is very, very important.

Brian Mershon: The two other rosary crusades resulted in rather quick and historic responses—the freeing of the Traditional Latin Mass to all priests everywhere in the world, and the dissolving of the excommunications of the Society bishops, which in turn led to the commencement of doctrinal talks with the Holy See. Do you anticipate a similarly dramatic response to this third rosary crusade?

Bishop Fellay: I leave it to be totally in the hands of God and the Blessed Virgin Mary. But, probably not. One never knows, but I would be very surprised if the Pope consecrated Russia. It would be a great, great surprise. But, on the other hand, we have already been surprised before, so I would not be amazed if it were to happen so quickly. This time what we’re asking for is so important and so big and it is so directly involved in all the events of the history of our times.

Brian Mershon: Ever since Pope Benedict was elected and the new Russian Orthodox Patriarch was chosen, there has been an obvious thaw in relations, and for the better, I believe. The Russian Orthodox Patriarch even published a book of the Pope’s writings to be disseminated to his lay faithful! How do you read this? Is this related to the Third Secret of Fatima as well?


Bishop Fellay: I personally believe there is something on the move in Russia. There definitely does seem to be something moving in Russia. There is something in the air.  How far and how deep? I do not know. But, there are many things that show there is a revival of religion in Russia.

Brian Mershon: Has the Society already sent the bouquet of rosaries? 

Bishop Fellay: It is going to happen [soon].

Brian Mershon: What is the Society’s attitude on the worldwide media attacks on the Holy Father and the Church?

Bishop Fellay: I think we have there a good demonstration that the Church really does still have enemies. And these enemies have real names. You can see that through this ongoing campaign. It is very revealing. On the one hand, we have the old-guard U.S. enemies and, on the other hand, we have the leftists from Europe both working together.

Brian Mershon: Do you think these attacks are related to the chastisements foretold by Sister Lucia in the Third Secret?

Bishop Fellay: It’s too difficult to say. But if there is one quote from Fatima that I would quote that applies—it is this: “The Pope will suffer a lot. The Pope will suffer a lot.” And you have it there.

Brian Mershon: The ongoing doctrinal talks with the Holy See are occurring outside the media spotlight for obvious reasons. What do you expect to happen as a result of these? What has to happen in the doctrinal talks for the Society to agree to a canonical structure? Are the talks even related to a possible canonical solution?

Bishop Fellay: It’s impossible to say. Absolutely impossible. It depends upon too many factors right now. I don’t have the answer.

Brian Mershon: Some critics say that the Society’s rejection of a canonical or practical solution is a sign of obstinacy or ill will. How do you answer that?

Bishop Fellay: It is very simple. The Holy See has agreed that the doctrinal talks should happen, so that should answer the questions without putting the burden on me. Besides that, it is very clear that whatever practical solution that would happen without a sound doctrinal foundation would lead directly to disaster. We don’t want that. We want and need the security of a sound solution on the level of doctrine to go ahead. So to pretend there is something definitive prior to engaging in the doctrinal talks…

We have all these previous examples in front of us—the Fraternity of St. Peter, the Institute of Christ the King and all of the others are totally blocked on the level of doctrine because they first accepted the practical agreement.

Brian Mershon: Do you believe the Pope personally sincerely desires a canonical solution with the Society of St. Pius X?

Bishop Fellay: Yes, I think so. Yes, I do. I think the Pope desires this. He wants the Church to be better and he wants to complete the quest of the consecration of bishops with the Society.

Brian Mershon: You have mentioned in previous interviews that the Society has positive acquaintances or even friends as bishops, cardinals—and even in the Roman curia. What advice do they give you as these doctrinal talks are ongoing?

Bishop Fellay: Nothing at all. They are very discreet right now. I think the discussions we’re having are very good and are happening at a very discreet level. The next talks are taking place in May.

Brian Mershon: Are you aware of any group of priests, lay faithful or dioceses in the recent history of the Church who have offered such large bouquets of rosaries to the Holy Father as the Society has now done thrice?

Bishop Fellay: Not to my knowledge. It might have happened, but I don’t have any reference. But it is obvious that such a crusade is something unique. I believe that Fr. Gruner is now going to do the same thing.

Brian Mershon: What is your advice to Catholics who desire to open a chapel in their area? Is the Society putting on the breaks where expanding chapel locations is concerned, due to the doctrinal talks?

Bishop Fellay: First, the lay faithful should contact us and then we try to do something for them. Right now, we have so many requests that we can hardly fulfill them. This year, we have a good year for ordinations, but even so we are too short of priests [to fulfill all the requests]. We can hardly answer all the requests.  But we continue our normal life as before. It would be totally counterproductive to think we would have to stop any increase in our life because of talks with Rome. It should be quite the contrary.

Brian Mershon: Your Excellency, Do you have any final thoughts?

Bishop Fellay: Prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary have to continue. Some might think that since we achieved our rosary crusade, now everything is fine. No. No. No.  It is now very clear that we are engaged in a battle with the real enemies of the Church. So Catholics, be ready! Gain the victory with the rosary!

39 posted on 05/11/2010 2:01:20 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Pyro7480

Thanks for the ping Pyro7480:)


40 posted on 05/11/2010 2:15:12 PM PDT by fatima (Free Hugs Today :))
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To: Pyro7480
I'm refering to the pope's explanation, it's is typical Vatican II confusion:

Typical post Vatican II speak, where words are used to confuse rather than communicate. Seems like God has chosen these Vatican II popes who are reluctant to teach clearly for fear of being rejected so that the world will not be further condemned for rejecting clear teachings:

"To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without, all things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand: lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them"

Everyone is "without".

41 posted on 05/11/2010 3:34:32 PM PDT by Leoni
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To: mockingbyrd
Actually, I know quite a bit about Fatima. But it is private revelation and it hasn’t played a significant role in my spiritual life. ....the message of Fatima doesn’t speak to everyone.

I doubt that you know anything about Fatima, or you would not make such a selfish statement. Fatima involved the most significant life changing event for all the 200+ million persons killed by the communists in the Europe, USSR, Asia, and South America and Africa. AND all the enslaved by the communists throughout the world to this day. It will be significant for the rest of the world when they come for them too.

Sister Lucia of Fatima in 1946 said that the whole world would become communist:

"While he was the pastor of Our Lady of Fatima Church in Ludlow, Massachusetts, I spent some time with Fr. Manuel Rocha, the interpreter selected for Mr. William Thomas Walsh, who wrote perhaps the most popular book on Fatima. Fr. Rocha told me that one of the questions Mr. Walsh asked him to translate to Sister Lucia during a three hour interview on the afternoon of July 15, 1946, while she was still Sister Maria das Dores, a Dorothean Sister at Vilar near Porto, Portugal, was ‘In your opinion, will every country, without exception, be overcome by communism?’ Her pale brown eyes staring into his, a ‘little dimple on each cheek,’ she answered, ‘Yes.’

"Fr. Rocha related to me that Mr. Walsh wanted to be positive about the answer and therefore repeated the question adding, ‘And does that mean the United States of America too?’ Sister Lucia answered, ‘Yes.’ Unbelievable in 1946, not so far fetched today is it?

For Portugal, Fatima was the most significant event in the last 100 years, if not in all it's history. By consecrating their country as the Blessed Mother asked, the undefeatable anti-Catholic government was toppled almost overnight, Portugal avoided the communist civil war just across the border, which decimated Spain, AND Portugal altogether avoided the Second World War.

42 posted on 05/11/2010 3:56:58 PM PDT by Leoni
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To: Leoni

Leoni: “Seems like God has chosen these Vatican II popes who are reluctant to teach clearly for fear of being rejected so that the world will not be further condemned for rejecting clear teachings.”

I don’t know how you can make this statement without being able to support it with positive evidence.

And that would be quite impossible to do since there is no way that one can say whether or not they were “reluctant to teach clearly for fear of rejection.” That is simply a conjecture for which you provide no factual evidence.

“Seems like” is not sufficient proof for reading the minds of popes.

BTW, of course they were popes who came in the time after Vatican II. Does that fact alone (time sequence) put a scarlet letter on them? I think not.

There are many societal and cultural realities that can be factored in to the rejection of the clear teachings of the Church (such teachings including Pope Paul VI’s “Humanae Vitae”).It hardly needs pointing out that such realities are an important factor in the flow of social trends and events. The assumption that the blame for rejection of Church teachings lies with 3 popes is just that—an assumption, and one that can’t be made as proven fact.


43 posted on 05/11/2010 4:38:35 PM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words: "It's too late"))
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To: Leoni; mockingbyrd

Leoni: “I doubt that you know anything about Fatima, or you would not make such a selfish statement.”

None of us has any way of knowing what mockingbyrd knows about Fatima. And even less so does her post need to be called a “selfish statement”.

After all, even though Fatima is recognized by the Church, it still isn’t an article of faith. It can be called, as the Church teaches, “worthy of belief”, but it is not creedal.


44 posted on 05/11/2010 4:45:57 PM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words: "It's too late"))
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To: Running On Empty
Actually, I know quite a bit about Fatima. But it is private revelation and it hasn’t played a significant role in my spiritual life. ....the message of Fatima doesn’t speak to everyone.

I doubt that you know anything about Fatima, for if you really knew "quite a bit about Fatima" you would not make such a naive statement......

How's that, is that better? Our Lady told us what would happen in the future and how to stop it. Her requests were not granted and Russia spread her errors, resulting in 200 million persons death, and even more millions enslaved. That is no "apparition to increase devotion", that one can pick and choose. Her prophecy of sufferings to come, and her request, still remains current and ignored by the popes.

45 posted on 05/11/2010 6:31:58 PM PDT by Leoni
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To: Leoni
I doubt that you know anything about Fatima, or you would not make such a selfish statement.

You should avoid making things personal and mind reading as both those violate the rules of the Religion forum.

46 posted on 05/11/2010 6:44:37 PM PDT by mockingbyrd (Remember in November.)
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To: Running On Empty
Leoni: “Seems like God has chosen these Vatican II popes who are reluctant to teach clearly for fear of being rejected so that the world will not be further condemned for rejecting clear teachings.” ROE:I don’t know how you can make this statement without being able to support it with positive evidence.

Do they write clear? NOT! Is Vatican II clear? NOT! No conjecture there. God allowed them to be popes for our times as a punishment to those who would not listen even if they spoke clear.

Read any and all documents from Pius IX, Leo XIII, Pius X, Pius XII, Pius XII. Then read any and all from Vatican II, JPII, and B16. Even Humanae Vitae has birth control loopholes written ambiguously into it. Read Pius XI on the same subject, it's clear. It's all there for anyone to see, before John XXIII and after John XXIII, two different objectives in writing. One is up front teaching clear truths, the other is, unclear and verbose.

47 posted on 05/11/2010 7:01:24 PM PDT by Leoni
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To: Leoni

I don’t have any common ground with you, because I can’t believe that God came down from heaven to tell you that He allowed them “to be popes for our times as a punishment....”.

Yes, I believe that there is conjecture there.


48 posted on 05/11/2010 7:05:00 PM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words: "It's too late"))
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To: Leoni

Please don’t attribute to me what was not my post.


49 posted on 05/11/2010 7:09:11 PM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words: "It's too late"))
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To: Running On Empty

"Why God would allow these "ambiguities" to occur in Vatican II. (and other magisterial documents)?

Considering all that I have said thus far, especially concerning the ulterior motives of the liberal prelates and their virtual hijacking of Vatican II, I think Scripture has an answer as to why God would allow these "ambiguities" to occur. In short, there is an interesting working principle in Scripture. As a punishment for your sin, God will allow you to pursue, and be condemned by, what you sinfully desire. This is what I believe happened at Vatican II. The progressivist bishops and theologians sought for a way to push their heterodox ideas into the Church, so God allowed them to do so, as a witness and judgment against them. He would allow the Council to have its "ambiguities" so that those who would interpret them contrary to nineteen centuries of established Catholic dogma, would lead themselves into sin, and ultimately into God's judgment. Unfortunately, as is always the case, the sheep suffer for what the shepherds do wrong, and as a result, we have all been wandering in the spiritual desert of liberal theology for the past 40 years. (Article from Catholic Family News, Feb 2003, by Robert Sungenis)(1)

(1) In fact, the bad shepherds may be a chastisement for the sins of the sheep. Saint John Eudes, basing his words on Sacred Scripture, says that when God wants to punish his people, he sends them bad priests. See The Priest, His Dignity and Obligations, by Saint John Eudes, Chapter 2, "Qualities of a Holy Priest". (New York: P.J. Kenedy and Sons, 1947).

Vatican II is a punishment from God. It is a snare, a siren song to RUN AWAY FROM! Do not seek any answers about the Faith from Vatican II or any theologian that refers to it.

50 posted on 05/11/2010 7:09:22 PM PDT by Leoni
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