Is Sola Scriptura biblical? {Open)

www.cronos.com ^ | 31-May-2010 | Self Topic

[Cronos]

1. Where does the Bible claim sola scriptura?

2. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteous- ness; That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." --> it doesn't say that Scriptura is sufficient, just that it is profitable i.e. helpful. the entire verse from 14 to 17 says "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works"
3. Where else do we have the term "sola scriptura" in the Bible?

4. Matthew 15 - Jesus condemns corrupt tradition, not all tradition. At no point is the basic notion of traidition condemned

5. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 "So then, brehtern, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter"

6. 1 Timothy 3:14-15

14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

note that the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth is The Church of the Living God

7. Nowhere does Scripture reduce God's word down to Scripture ALONE. Instead the Bible tells us in many places that God's authoritative Word is found in The Church: in Tradition (2 Th 2:15, 3:6) and in the Church teaching (1 Pet 1:25, 2 Pet 1:20-21, Mt 18:17). This supports the Church principle of sola verbum Dei, 'the Word of God alone'.

8. The New Testament was compiled at the Council of Hippo in 393 and the Council of Carthage in 397, both of which sent off their judgements to Rome for the Pope's approval.

9. Yet, the people HAD the Canon, the Word of God before the scriptures were compiled, and even before some were written

10. Books that were revered in the 1st and 2nd centuries were left out of canon. Book slike the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas and the Acts of Paul. Why?

11. There were disputes over 2 Peter, Jude and Revelation, yet they are in Scripture. Whose decision was trustworthy and final, if the Church doesn't teach with infallible authority?

12. How are Protestants sure that the 27 books of the New Testaments are themselves the infallible Word of God if fallible Church councils and Patriarchs are the ones who made up or approved the list (leaving out the Acts of Paul, yet leaving in Jude and Revelation)?

13. Or do Protestants have a fallible collection of infallible documents? And how do they know that Jude is infallible? And how do they know that the Epistle of Barnabus is not?

14. "And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ" (Eph. 4:11–15).

[conservativegramma]

All 3 of those sites are wrong. They are non-Church sites.....

Huh uh. Because your man appointed self-proclaimed 'infallible' magisterium told you they were wrong. Gotcha.

[conservativegramma]

The Apostles would be more at home in The Church than in a grouping outside The Church

The Apostles would never be at home in a Church that taught doctrines contrary to the New Testament, sorry. And they DEFINITELY wouldn't be at home with Mary worship!

[johngrace]

Dear Lady I strongly disagree - You believe its not there. I know scripture too. Its like your looking at another angle of the same scriptures remember this you come from a different background. You were strongly taught to be against with a very deep bias with a prism view. We could go back and forth.Which you obviously gloss over to what I see. You can say the same towards me. It really starts with what is the Church. We see it differently. I think you misunderstand the word “pray”. Pray has 2 main meanings in the Dictionary 1- worship————————————————————— 2. To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: PRAY BE CAREFUL.
3. To make a devout or earnest request for: I PRAY YOUR PERMISSION TO SPEAK.
4. To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.
We are not putting the pray in the same as God-Its with God-In him with him. Christ came to establish a Church not a Bible. The Church eventually brought a bible which recorded the account of the apostles and prophets with guide for living. No where do you see Christ handing out the bible. The Church has always been there from the beginning as recorded in scripture. Like the authority Christ gives to Apostles in the gospel of John.————From: John 20:19-23

Jesus Appears to the Disciples
[19] On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors shut where
the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and
said to them, “Peace be with you.” [20] When He had said this, He showed them
His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. AS THE FATHER HAS SENT ME, EVEN SO I SEND YOU.”
[22] And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and
said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. [23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are
forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
———————————————————————————————Notice” AS THE FATHER HAS SENT ME, EVEN SO I SEND YOU.” He is giving the the same Authority like a power of legal attorney for an estate. The estate is the Church. Notice Peter in ——————————————————Acts 3:Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST of Nazareth, WALK.” 7Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and INSTANTLY the man’s feet and ankles became strong. 8He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. 9When all the people saw him walking and praising God, 10they recognized him as the same man who used to sit begging at the temple gate called Beautiful, and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.”-————————————————————————————
IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST -Power of Attorney as Christ did defined by the Church. The torch was passed. Its called Apostolic CATHOLIC CHURCH. SInce the beginning for 2000 thousand years. Its amazing its lasted that long. God is blessing his Church .—————————————————*******************************************************************************************
Commentary: JOHN 20: 19- 23

19-20. Jesus appears to the Apostles on the evening of the day of which He rose.
He presents Himself in their midst without any need for the doors to be opened,
by using the qualities of His glorified body; but in order to dispel any impression
that He is only a spirit He shows them His hands and His side: there is no lon-
ger any doubt about its being Jesus Himself, about His being truly risen from the
dead. He greets them twice using the words of greeting customary among the
Jews, with the same tenderness as He previously used put into this salutation.
These friendly words dispel the fear and shame the Apostles must have been
feeling at behaving so disloyally during His passion: He has created the normal
atmosphere of intimacy, and now He will endow them with transcendental po-
wers.

21. Pope Leo XIII explained how Christ transferred His own mission to the Apos-
tles: “What did He wish in regard to the Church founded, or about to be founded?
This: to transmit to it the same mission and the same mandate which He had re-
ceived from the Father, that they should be perpetuated. This He clearly resolved
to do: this He actually did. ‘As the Father hath sent Me, even so I send you’ (John
20:21). ‘As Thou didst send Me into the world, so I have sent them into the world’
(John 17:18). [...] When about to ascend into Heaven, He sends His Apostles in
virtue of the same power by which He had been sent from the Father; and He
charges them to spread abroad and propagate His teachings (cf. Matthew 28:18),
so that those obeying the Apostles might be saved, and those disobeying should
perish (cf. Mark 16:16). [...] Hence He commands that the teaching of the Apos-
tles should be religiously accepted and piously kept as if it were His own: ‘He who
hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me’ (Luke 10:16). Wherefore
the Apostles are ambassadors of Christ as He is the ambassador of the Father”
(Leo XIII, “Satis Cognitum”). In this mission the bishops are the successors of
the Apostles: “Christ sent the Apostles as He Himself had been sent by the Fa-*
ther, and then through the Apostles made their successors, the bishops, sharers
in His consecration and mission. The function of the bishops’ ministry was han-
ded over in a subordinate degree to priests so that they might be appointed in
the order of the priesthood and be co-workers of the episcopal order for the pro-
per fulfillment of the apostolic mission that had been entrusted to it by Christ”
(Vatican II, “Presbyterorum Ordinis”, 2).

22-23. The Church has always understood—and has in fact defined—that Jesus
Christ here conferred on the Apostles authority to forgive sins, a power which is
exercised in the Sacrament of Penance. “The Lord then especially instituted the
Sacrament of Penance when, after being risen from the dead, He breathed upon
His disciples and said: “Receive the Holy Spirit...’ The consensus of all the Fa-
thers has always acknowledged that by this action so sublime and words so
clear the power of forgiving and retaining sins was given to the Apostles and
their lawful successors for reconciling the faithful who have fallen after Baptism”
(Council of Trent, “De Paenitentia”, Chapter 1).

The Sacrament of Penance is the most sublime expression of God’s love and
mercy towards men, described so vividly in Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son (cf.
Luke 15:11-32). The Lord always awaits us, with His arms wide open, waiting for
us to repent—and then He will forgive us and restore us to the dignity of being His
sons.

The Popes have consistently recommended Christians to have regular recourse
to this Sacrament: “For a constant and speedy advancement in the path of vir-
tue we highly recommend the pious practice of frequent Confession, introduced
by the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit; for by this means we grow
in a true knowledge of ourselves and in Christian humility, bad habits are uproo-
ted, spiritual negligence and apathy are prevented, the conscience is purified
and the will strengthened, salutary spiritual direction is obtained, and grace is
increased by the efficacy of the Sacrament itself” (Pius XII, “Mystici Corporis”).

*********************************************************************************************
Source: “The Navarre Bible: Text and Commentaries”. Biblical text from the
Revised Standard Version and New Vulgate. Commentaries by members of
the Faculty of Theology, University of Navarre, Spain.

Published by Four Courts Press, Kill Lane, Blackrock, Co. Dublin, Ireland, and
by Scepter Publishers in the United States.——————————————I know We will Agree to Disagree most likely but that’s it in a concise manner- May Christ Guide Us Always! I pray the Best in Christ for You!

[papertyger]

How would you explain the trinity?

You don't. It is a tenent of the faith. Like prophets of old, once the bona fides are established, you either accept or reject them.

[conservativegramma]

Oh and of course, the heresy is the break-away from conservative scripture...

Once again you err. Protestants seek to RESTORE the truths of Scripture that Catholics disregarded ages ago. Scripture is still the sole authority to a protestant, to a catholic its not. This entire thread started by you proves that.

Like I said in an earlier post I thank God for these discussions. They reveal to me the gross heresies within the RCC that I would have learned no other way. In consequence I thank God now daily FOR the Reformation and Christ working through those men in order to preserve His church.

[conservativegramma]

Most likely they’d be appalled by you trying to use a book they’d never heard of to contradict the Church....

Thank you for proving once again complete heresy within the RCC. The only 'book' I'm using to contradict the Church is Scripture. LOL. Apostles not hearing of Scripture?? ROFL.

[mdmathis6]

I offer the parable of the Pharisee(the Catholic latin intellectual mind) and the Publican(some poor slob at the end of his rope)...The rich man is PRAYING to God telling him all the good things he had done and then says..”and I thank you that I’m not like that publican over there”

The publican, sorrowfully, beasts his breast(man he must have been really hurting inside) can’t even lift his eyes to heaven and says “Lord, be merciful to me a sinner!”

So Leoni...was the Publican confessing to himself or to God?
And who was the Pharisee talking to? And which one did God ultimately listen to and justify? Which one did God exalt and which one did God humble?

[OneWingedShark]

>>How would you explain the trinity?
>
>You don’t. It is a tenent of the faith. Like prophets of old, once the bona fides are established, you either accept or reject them.

Then why do you condemn me for saying that I truly don’t understand the trinity? I *NEVER* said that I rejected it.

Perhaps I could have been clearer by saying:
“I don’t understand the underlying metaphysics of the Trinity.”

[OneWingedShark]

>>Most likely they’d be appalled by you trying to use a book they’d never heard of to contradict the Church....
>
>Thank you for proving once again complete heresy within the RCC. The only ‘book’ I’m using to contradict the Church is Scripture. LOL. Apostles not hearing of Scripture?? ROFL

St. John: Hey! I recognize that, I wrote it! Oh... and that sounds like Matthew... he was a bit of a jerk (but I still love him). Ah, the memories.

[conservativegramma]

Sorry John, as long as I'm seeing images like these:

I frankly don't accept anything that you have to say is trustworthy. Not even your Scripture quotations are trustworthy because they've been re-interpreted for you out of their intended meaning by a self-proclaimed infallible but really in fact fallible magisterium. See? Your final authority is the Magisterium. Mine is Holy writ.

Consequently, for me you have no more authority or truth in anything you post than I would expect from a Mormon, buddist, Hindu or Muslem. All are false.

As long as I'm seeing the above idol worship.....its all heretical. And what little truth may shine through from time to time, again is generally overshadowed by the blasphemies that I see day to day like the above. So we really have nothing more to say to one another on this subject.

[papertyger]

You know, the New Testament wasn’t around for the Apostles to thumb through....

[Cronos]

Protestants may seek, but they're incorrect. They haven't restored anything, but they have deviated. All studies of Early Christians show that their beliefs were CAtholic, their practises, their liturgy was Catholic. As you read in the Didache, you see the same line down to the CAtholic mass.

Christian Scripture did not exist for 1st century Christians, yet they were true to the faith as handed down in Tradition. And even when scripture was put together, it was birthed with Holy Tradition.

For 1500 years no one ever saw any difference between Holy Tradition and SCripture.

For 1500 years there was no SOLA scriptura.

And then the reformatting came across and dragged millions of Christians away from Christ and into the realms of either heresy or increasing weirdness (as we see in the 4th generation protestant groups like Mormons, Assemblies of G, JWs, Unitarians etc.)

[conservativegramma]

Nah, they just had all those letters we call The Epistles floating around from church to church.........

[Cronos]

1. The Church teaches doctrines contrary to the NT? Ha -- name any example. On the contrary, the either/or approach of many Calvinistic groups are quite contrary to the NT
2. Mary worship? No one worships Mary in The Church. Maybe you're talking of some Protestant grouping? We only WORSHIP God.

[papertyger]

Then why do you condemn me for saying that I truly don’t understand the trinity?

Dood, you need to read the words that are written. I'm on you for presumption. Saying you didn't know which is which is like saying Jesus never claimed to be God in the flesh.

[Cronos]

Actually, no. Because your links are to sites that say they are anti-Catholic. The Magisterium teach on doctrinal issues. Little issues like various non-Church groupings and their websites don't really matter.

I may as well give you links to the DU and say what do you think of THIS? It'd be equally silly.... as you said gotcha...

[mdmathis6]

As to confession, I actually think the Catholics have a good Idea here, TO A POINT. The SCRIPTURE does admonish us to “confess our faults to one another” as a way of understanding one another and to help new believers understand that even the more mature have been thru the same issues and have had the same nasty faults and continued struggles. It can help build trust and spiritual cohesion to discover that as God has not condemned us then the humans we have common faith with also do not condemn us.

Sometimes, some cases need a special touch and one can’t just confess to a group right away, this is where a priest hearing anonymous confession can really do some good. A church offering private anonymous confessionals allows a priest to offer kindly advice, to urge repentance, to pray for that soul ect, and it is in no violation of the scriptural admonishment to “confess ones faults to one another”.

This in no way negates the fact that anyone can ask God at any time for help and forgiveness for sins. Repentence includes going to folks and making things right where one can or forgiving others when forgiveness needs to be done.

It would be nice if a confessional booth could be instituted in a lot of the protestant churches. As for the doctrine of ‘priestly or pastorly absolution of sins’ via the confessional, a case could be made for and against. Christians are all fellow intercessors and all of called priests, pastors, reverends having heard a confession and seen evidence of repentence might, under God’s special calling on their lives, be able to pronounce a soul, “forgiven, go and sin no more”; As long as it was understood by all that it was Christ that did the forgiving and not the priest in his own power, but rather in Christ’s name! “For what you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven and what you loose on Earth shall also be loosed in Heaven” as the scriptures say.

[Trailerpark Badass]

As long as I'm seeing the above idol worship.....

Do you really think thosse people are really praying TO THE STATUES!?

Do you even know what "idol worship" means?!

[papertyger]

Nah, they just had all those letters we call The Epistles floating around from church to church.........

Prove it!

I can prove there were Churches all over the landscape. Proving what epistles they had, and when they got them is gonna be a might trickier.

[Anti-Utopian]

Please delete my account. I no longer wish to be associated with this site, it’s moderators, or it’s members.