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Dispensationalism (Dispensationalists Caucus)
Vanity

Posted on 08/05/2010 5:00:51 PM PDT by wmfights

Edited on 08/05/2010 8:15:23 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

[snip]


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism
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1 posted on 08/05/2010 5:00:52 PM PDT by wmfights
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: Iscool
Sorry I meant to ping you.
3 posted on 08/05/2010 5:09:32 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights; Religion Moderator

GREAT TOPIC.

I’m not sure how it can procede without talking about opponents perspectives . . . which would remove the caucus designation . . . LOL.


4 posted on 08/05/2010 5:09:51 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: wmfights

Thanks for this, wmfights! Let me read the link you posted and I’ll be back...it’s so good to see you posting again, I’ve missed your great insights!


5 posted on 08/05/2010 5:09:58 PM PDT by smvoice (smvoice- formally known as small voice in the wilderness. Easier on the typing!)
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To: Quix; Religion Moderator
I’m not sure how it can procede without talking about opponents perspectives . . .

I think the link to the article is pretty balanced. I'm not sure why we would need to talk about other opinions, within dispensationalism there are a variety of views.

6 posted on 08/05/2010 5:16:32 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: smvoice
Thanks, I look forward to your thoughts.
7 posted on 08/05/2010 5:17:34 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Quix
Let me throw something at you. When was the Christian Church started?
8 posted on 08/05/2010 5:20:21 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights
Let me throw something at you. When was the Christian Church started?

I would have to say back in the days of Abraham, when the promise was made.

9 posted on 08/05/2010 5:28:54 PM PDT by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: wmfights

Pentecost (feast of weeks) after Christ’s resurrection.


10 posted on 08/05/2010 5:31:03 PM PDT by Mrs.Z
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To: wmfights
OK. Ready..

Understanding that the Book of Acts is a transition period is crucial to understanding dispensational teaching.

1). the change from Law to Grace. 2). From the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Gospel of the Grace of God. 3). From a kingdom of believers to a body of believers. 4). the temporary setting aside and blindness of Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

11 posted on 08/05/2010 5:32:12 PM PDT by smvoice (smvoice- formally known as small voice in the wilderness. Easier on the typing!)
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To: Mrs.Z; smvoice
Pentecost (feast of weeks) after Christ’s resurrection.

I would disagree because that still only involved Jews. They considered believing in Jesus to be "The Way" and still followed temple worship.

I think the stoning of Stephen is the final rejection and the Christian Church started with Paul.

12 posted on 08/05/2010 5:38:31 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights

The author leaves out an important translation of Ephraem the Syrian A.D. 373.

This was an ancient document which was not translated from Latin into English until 1995.

You can find the citation and complete analysis in Grant Jeffrey’s book FINAL WARNING Frontier Research Publications.


13 posted on 08/05/2010 5:40:06 PM PDT by Mrs.Z
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To: mountn man
I would have to say back in the days of Abraham, when the promise was made.

Wow, that's interesting I hadn't thought of that. However, the Body of Christ isn't held to the law.

14 posted on 08/05/2010 5:40:40 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: smvoice
From the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Gospel of the Grace of God.

It took me the longest time to realize they are different. I think the big stumbling block was realizing it wasn't until Paul that the Gospel of Grace was preached.

15 posted on 08/05/2010 5:43:14 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Mrs.Z

THank you, I will look for that. Is this another theologian that believed there are different economies/dispensations?


16 posted on 08/05/2010 5:46:32 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights
It was hard to understand. But when you realize that if the dispensation of the Grace of God was given by revelation from Jesus Christ to Paul, and Paul wasn't saved until Acts 9, then this present dispensation could not have started before then, it suddenly makes sense. Peter's great Pentecostal message is equally hard to understand at first, but then...

Peter is speaking to Jews, on their celebration of Pentecost, not to Jews and Gentiles. Acts Chapters One through Three make it clear. Peter does not speak of Christ dying for our sins, being buried and being raised on the third day for our sins, because he did not know this at that time. His message was a call to repentance for Israel, in order that the times of refreshing would come and Christ would return and set up His kingdom. He was preaching EXACTLY what Christ commissioned him to preach.

17 posted on 08/05/2010 5:52:09 PM PDT by smvoice (smvoice- formally known as small voice in the wilderness. Easier on the typing!)
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To: wmfights

Sorry, I don’t get your reference.

Jesus said (Luke 24:48-49) “You are witnesses of these things. And behold I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you but you are to STAY IN THE CITY UNTIL YOU ARE CLOTHED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH.” (caps mine)

The “Power from on high” was the Holy Spirit, which came on the Church on Pentecost.

That “Power” changed Peter from an illiterate fisherman to one of the most articulate speakers in history...

that “Power” began the Church.


18 posted on 08/05/2010 5:55:15 PM PDT by Mrs.Z
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To: wmfights

Different, no.

Jeffrey was addressing (IMO) and putting to death the argument that despensationalism began with Darby.


19 posted on 08/05/2010 5:58:46 PM PDT by Mrs.Z
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To: wmfights

That would depend on a number of factors.

One could say when Christ began His ministry.

One could say the Upper Room.

One could say in Acts 2.

One could say when God promised Adam a Savior—although quite a stretch, that one.


20 posted on 08/05/2010 6:03:49 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: wmfights

Fine with me.

Just don’t want to spend a lot of time on it to have it . . . pulled or trashed. LOL.


21 posted on 08/05/2010 6:06:04 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: smvoice
He was preaching EXACTLY what Christ commissioned him to preach.

Also, they looked at everything from a Jewish perspective. "The Good News" was the Messiah had come and he would set up His Kingdom. They had no idea about a Spiritual Kingdom. Even after the Ascension of Jesus Christ they were looking for an immediate return once Israel repented and believed.

22 posted on 08/05/2010 6:06:48 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights; Mrs.Z
You and I have talked about this before, but it might be interesting to some..

Israel, as a Nation rejected Christ at His first coming. Not all of Israel, Christ had His Little Flock of believers, but the Nation of Israel as a whole. Strike 1.

The Nation of Israel rejected Christ and His offer to return and set up the Kingdom, on the day of Pentecost. Strike 2.

In Acts, Chapter 8, the Nation of Israel rejects Stephen's Message and he is stoned to death. Strike 3. Stephen replies to the wailing and gnashing Jews, "..And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." Acts. 8:56.

This is important, because Christ WAS seated on the right hand of God. And Stephen saw Him STANDING. This was a sign of judgement. Strike 3.

With the very next Chapter, 9, Paul is saved and the Dispensation of the Grace of God begins. Israel is blinded, set aside, and the Gospel of the Grace of God goes to the Gentiles.

23 posted on 08/05/2010 6:07:17 PM PDT by smvoice (smvoice- formally known as small voice in the wilderness. Easier on the typing!)
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To: Mrs.Z
Sorry, I don’t get your reference.

Sometimes my mind moves faster than my fingers and I don't type in everything I should. What I was getting at was at what point did the Christian Church emerge.

Your point about the Holy Spirit descending on believers is right, but at that point these believers still thought of themselves as Jews and maintained Temple worship.

that “Power” began the Church.

I would say you're right, but at that time it was not Christian. It was almost exclusively Jewish.

24 posted on 08/05/2010 6:12:59 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: smvoice

You got it.

I think at Pentecost the nation was given another chance, but only a fraction responded.

And up until today Israel is blinded, (but she is soon to have her eyes opened.)


25 posted on 08/05/2010 6:14:05 PM PDT by Mrs.Z
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To: Mrs.Z
And up until today Israel is blinded, (but she is soon to have her eyes opened.)

Amen, Mrs.Z. God is not finished with Israel. He will turn His eyes back to her when the Church the Body of Christ is complete and we are removed from this world. And then the tribulation begins.

26 posted on 08/05/2010 6:17:45 PM PDT by smvoice (smvoice- formally known as small voice in the wilderness. Easier on the typing!)
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To: smvoice; Mrs.Z
God is not finished with Israel. He will turn His eyes back to her when the Church the Body of Christ is complete and we are removed from this world.

It was when I read Revelation with this in mind that it made sense.

27 posted on 08/05/2010 6:20:41 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights
***but at that time it was not Christian. It was almost exclusively Jewish.***

I still don't get it.

Did you not realize that our Lord Himself was JEWISH, as were ALL HIS DISCIPLES? Are you saying that only a gentile can be a Christian? How would you categorize Messianic Jews? My husband and I have been supporting Jews for Jesus for years... do you actually believe them outside the Church?

28 posted on 08/05/2010 6:22:06 PM PDT by Mrs.Z
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To: wmfights; smvoice; Mrs.Z
God is not finished with Israel. He will turn His eyes back to her when the Church the Body of Christ is complete and we are removed from this world.

It was when I read Revelation with this in mind that it made sense.


Sadly, this is probably true. If you had done it the other way around, reading Revelation first, you would have been able to judge the above for the extra-scriptural teaching that it is.

The day that the church--AKA the worldwide, throughout-time, body of believers, living and asleep, justified by Christ--is taken to Jesus is the day this earth and these heavens' history comes to a fiery end.
29 posted on 08/05/2010 6:27:54 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: Mrs.Z; wmfights
"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross , having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." (Eph. 2:14-18).

It is by the cross, that both Jews and Gentiles now have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Believing Jews and believing Gentiles are no longer at enmity. For He has created from two believers, one. One New Man. Where there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

30 posted on 08/05/2010 6:36:43 PM PDT by smvoice (smvoice- formally known as small voice in the wilderness. Easier on the typing!)
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To: aruanan

It would be helpful to have some Scripture for your argument.


31 posted on 08/05/2010 6:39:44 PM PDT by smvoice (smvoice- formally known as small voice in the wilderness. Easier on the typing!)
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To: wmfights
I would disagree because that still only involved Jews. They considered believing in Jesus to be "The Way" and still followed temple worship.

The believers at Pentecost never thought of themselves as anything but Jews who had received the King of Israel, Jesus Christ, and His salvation, and were waiting for His return to the earth to establish the long-promised Davidic, Messianic Kingdom (Acts 3:19-21).

Peter's preaching in Acts chapters 2 to 7, were entirely addressed to Israel and its leaders. He was not knowingly preaching to the Body of Christ, of which at that time he was totally unaware. Peter, nor the Eleven were anticipating a New Testament Church, the likes of ANYTHING that developed after Acts chapter 15.

Peter, nor the Eleven, had any idea that there would be a prolonged "Church Age." They were looking for the establishment of that which had been promised by the Old Testament prophets -- the Dividic Kingdom -- with Christ returning as its King.

We get in a mess when we try to read what we see of the Church today back in to the early chapters of the Acts of the Apostles, or in to the Book of Acts anywhere for that matter, and try to establish our doctrine there.

32 posted on 08/05/2010 6:44:44 PM PDT by John Leland 1789 (Grateful)
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To: John Leland 1789

Amen. Peter and the 11 were exactly following the commission given to them by Christ. They were NOT preaching the Grace of God, because they were not given that. Until Paul, it was a mystery, hid in God. (Rom. 16:25,26). They could not preach something that they didn’t know yet, and they were perfectly doing as Christ instructed them to do. It was the restoration of Israel and the times of refreshing that Joel spoke of, that Peter preached. For the acceptance of Christ as Messiah, and His return to set up the Kingdom.


33 posted on 08/05/2010 6:55:14 PM PDT by smvoice (smvoice- formally known as small voice in the wilderness. Easier on the typing!)
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To: wmfights
No, but Abraham was counted as righteous because of his FAITH, the law hadn't started yet.

Next, Paul tells us in Romans chapter 11 that the gentiles were grafted into the root. WE are now PART of the olive tree.

Paul tells us in Romans 15:

25but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints.

26For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.

27Yes, they were pleased to do so, and they are indebted to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in their spiritual things, they are indebted to minister to them also in material things.

I think its pretty obvious "the saints" in Jerusalem are Jewish believers. And the Gentiles shared in something the Jews had.

Romans 15:12

12Again Isaiah says,
"THERE SHALL COME THE ROOT OF JESSE,
AND HE WHO ARISES TO RULE OVER THE GENTILES,
IN HIM SHALL THE GENTILES HOPE."

Isaiah 11:1 & 10:

1Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.

10Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious.

Revelation 22: 16

"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

Jesus is the root foretold in Isaiah that the Gentiles would hope. Paul pronouced it in Romans and Jesus confirmed it in Revelation.

Isaiah the prophet foretold it, which means, it was ALWAYS Gods intention to include the Gentiles.

Romans 13:

46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you )first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47"For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'"

48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Isaiah 49 confirms this

6He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

From the beginning Gods intention was to include the gentiles. Which means when he made the promise to Abraham he already had the Gentiles in mind. The Gentiles aren't the beginning of the church, we are the inclussion into it. We are the grafted in ones. The adopted ones.

Instead of looking at ourselves as better than the Jews, AND SEPERATE FROM the Jews. Scripture tells us we are now PART OF Gods promise to THE JEWS.

The "Church"

The Bride Of Christ

Started back with Gods promise to Abraham.

34 posted on 08/05/2010 6:57:55 PM PDT by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: wmfights; blue-duncan; xzins
No matter how you slice it there are at least two dispensations.

BC and AD.

I have owned a Scofield Bible since before I was saved. I will own one till the day I die.

C I Scofield, the patron saint of Dispensationalist Lawyers.

35 posted on 08/05/2010 7:11:32 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: mountn man
"If ye have heard of the Dispensation of the grace of God which is GIVEN ME to you-ward: how that BY REVELATION He made known unto ME, the mystery...which IN OTHER AGES was NOT made known unto the sons of men as it is NOW REVEALED unto His Holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body and partakers of His promise in Christ BY THE GOSPEL...and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD hath been HID IN GOD who created all things by Jesus Christ." (Eph. 3:2,3,5,6,9).

At one time, gentiles were partakers of the promise in Christ through the nation Israel. But when Israel becomes blinded and temporarily set aside, God, in His grace, provided a means for gentiles to be saved apart from Israel: "By the Gospel".

36 posted on 08/05/2010 7:16:36 PM PDT by smvoice (smvoice- formally known as small voice in the wilderness. Easier on the typing!)
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To: P-Marlowe

What! Bullinger demoted? You’re trying to divide!


37 posted on 08/05/2010 7:17:59 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: wmfights
It wasn't until Paul that the Gospel of Grace WAS PREACHED to the GENTILES.

But lets look at Hebrews 11:

31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.

And what was the reward of this faith of a GENTILE PROSTITUTE????

Matthew 1

1The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

5Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz was the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse.

IF Rahab hadn't earned an inheritance, why was she listed in Jesus' lineage in the first place.

2 GENTILES are listed in Jesus' lineage, Rahab and Ruth. We can argue that the Bible doesn't say they were "saved", BUT if they didn't warrant mentioning WHY ARE THEY mentioned? First of all they are women. Second they are Gentiles.

IF the Bible IS the inspired WORD OF GOD, then the mention of 2 GENTILE women MUST have some significance.

38 posted on 08/05/2010 7:19:09 PM PDT by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: smvoice

How can something grafted in be apart?


39 posted on 08/05/2010 7:24:47 PM PDT by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: mountn man

It was through the nation Israel that gentiles were partakers of the promises of God. The dispensation of grace gives gentiles a way to be saved apart from Israel. “By the Gospel” is how we are now partakers of the promise in Christ.


40 posted on 08/05/2010 7:24:58 PM PDT by smvoice (smvoice- formally known as small voice in the wilderness. Easier on the typing!)
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To: smvoice; wmfights

“1). the change from Law to Grace.”

Was Abraham chosen by grace? Was Israel as a race chosen by grace? When you were chosen before the foundation of the world was it according to the grace of God?


41 posted on 08/05/2010 7:26:22 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: cornelis; wmfights; xzins; blue-duncan
What! Bullinger demoted? You’re trying to divide!

Bullinger was not a Lawyer.

42 posted on 08/05/2010 7:27:48 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: blue-duncan

The questions of Aquinas are thousand times more fruitful.


43 posted on 08/05/2010 7:27:56 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: P-Marlowe

Bullinger had a beard!


44 posted on 08/05/2010 7:30:29 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: mountn man
"I would have to say back in the days of Abraham, when the promise was made."

No promise of the establishment of the Body of Christ was made to Abraham. It was a secret hid in God until revealed to Paul.

Justification by faith and the establishment of the Body of Christ are not synonymous concepts.

45 posted on 08/05/2010 7:33:47 PM PDT by John Leland 1789 (Grateful)
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To: cornelis; xzins; blue-duncan; wmfights
Bullinger had a beard!

Bullinger was a musician, so he would have to be the Patron Saint of Dispensationist Musicians. When I retire as an attorney and begin working full time as a musician, I will necessarily have to switch Patron saints.

46 posted on 08/05/2010 7:36:04 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: blue-duncan
Did Abraham believe that Christ died for his sins, was buried, and rose again the third day? Or Abel, Noah, Isaac, Jacob, David, or Peter? This was something that was hid in Scripture until it was revealed unto the Apostle Paul: "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" (Rom. 16,25,26).

Up until the dispensation of grace, men were either accepted or rejected of God on the basis of the sacrifice they offered, but faith was counted to them for righteousness. Faith in God's Word to them is what was counted for righteousness.

47 posted on 08/05/2010 7:46:41 PM PDT by smvoice (smvoice- formally known as small voice in the wilderness. Easier on the typing!)
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To: John Leland 1789
Peter, nor the Eleven, had any idea that there would be a prolonged "Church Age." They were looking for the establishment of that which had been promised by the Old Testament prophets -- the Dividic Kingdom -- with Christ returning as its King.

Exactly. They had a different expectation. The early believers sold their assets came to Jerusalem and looked for Jesus to return and establish The Kingdom. It wasn't until Paul was converted that Christ Crucified was preached to the Gentiles.

48 posted on 08/05/2010 7:54:58 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: smvoice
God, in His grace, provided a means for gentiles to be saved apart from Israel: "By the Gospel".

Romans 13: 47"For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'"
48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord

Isaiah 49: 6
He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

Before I go on, I DO BELIEVE we are in the time of the Gentiles the Bible mentions. My point is, as Gentile believers we need to look at our Jewish brothers differently. We Gentiles are so focused on "Israels" rejection we elevate ourselves in our own minds. But the reality is, we are only saved BY GODS GRACE, not by something WE have done.

Titus3: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

It is with this humility at our focus that we look appropriately at our Jewish brothers. The very fact that we are looking at a seperation between the 2 shows our bias AND arrogance.

We should be like the Gentiles mentioned in Romans 13, knowing that we have been included into the Jewish God.

Our hearts should be breaking for the Jews, INSTEAD we focus on OUR belief and THEIR unbelief, as our being better.

Show me where God has ever removed Israel from "I HAVE PLACED YOU".

49 posted on 08/05/2010 7:57:22 PM PDT by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: mountn man

Oh, I believe that, as you do. It’s just at this time, Jews and Gentiles are declared equal before God, and Christ’s sacrifice for us on the cross is for both Jew and Gentile, equal standing before God. There is none righteous, no not one. He has created One New Man, neither Jew nor Gentile, but believers in the grace of God.


50 posted on 08/05/2010 8:02:36 PM PDT by smvoice (smvoice- formally known as small voice in the wilderness. Easier on the typing!)
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