Posted on 11/06/2010 3:55:37 PM PDT by Benchim
There are millions of church going believers who really are confused and conflicted on central issues of the faith. Issue 1: Are you really saved? You may say "Yes" but you may not be sure because of the legal requirements of the group you joined. Issue 2: When do I receive my salvation? When I believe or when I die after a trial to determine if I did all the right things like baptism, repentance ,lived in obedience, confession , "born again", absolution from the priesthood,tithed,lived sinless and on and on. Did you observe the sabath? was your "church" attendance acceptable to God? By the way, you did not do this guilt trip on your own. You were constantly "coached" into these ambiguities by the institutional "Church" to better control their flock and to extract attendance and money.
(Excerpt) Read more at antinomianism-salvation.blogspot.com ...
Past LDS "prophets" like Spencer W. Kimball & others stress that you have to earn forgiveness.
Kimball even had a chapter in a book entitled, "Keeping God's Commandments Brings Forgiveness."
But as somebody once said, “Jesus’ love is not something we earn, it earns us.” Whereas, Mormon "scripture" is more like:
That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins... D&C 76:52
In the Mormon church, obedience is ground zero.
Even before faith -- obedience earns you faith (so said Lds "prophet" Joseph F. Smith)
Even before forgiveness -- obedience earns you forgiveness (so says Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball)
Even before being able to be washed & cleansed from sins -- obedience must be earned (so said founding "prophet" Joseph Smith)
Even before grace -- restoration "grace for grace" only comes to Mormons "according to their works" (Helaman 12:24, Book of Mormon)
The Mormon "bad news" -- not a "good news" gospel at all -- is obedience not only now and later -- but before anything:
Before Faith,
Before forgiveness,
Before washing or cleansing from sin
Before grace
None of it kicks in for the Mormon until all the obedient works are racked up! That, my friends, is a false gospel through and through!
I agree with GF...excellent framing by Ironside.
It reminded me of an Idaho pastor who has an outreach to Mormons. Late last year (Dec. 27, 2009) Idaho pastor Mark Cares said in an Idaho newspaper: "The teachings of Mormonism cause people to despair because they have so much TO DO." (Idaho Statesman)
Lds promote that they are "children of God" and that we are heirs. But heirs don't have to boast some long "to DO" checklist to become heirs -- they simply are to BE children of God.
Like any heir, I'm an heir by His death [or did you think you could become an heir & gain a "testimony" only by His life???] and by His ensuing gift to me...NOT an heir based upon...
...my works,
...my obedience,
...my self-promotional worthiness,
...my commandment-keeping,
...my bishop-graded temple recommend,
...my Word-of-wisdom keeping,
...my exaltation checklist,
...who I marry,
...if I marry,
...and all the other plural "My-s" I can ever list--as if my life was to center on... ..me
...or as if all my good works were primarily or unconsciously done to boomering back on my bootstraps to kick me into divinity...
...rather than simply to love the One I serve.
LDS: Be free from legalism!
Join us in concluding that you could never do all you could do -- including love as Jesus loves -- in order to coax God's grace to eventually kick in (2 Nephi 25:23)
(Join us in trying to stop manipulating how God thinks about you -- He already knows us perfectly -- and a temple recommend checklist is mere religiosity -- not a relationship with the true Jesus)
Do you rejoice with the truth that he who believes in Jesus HAS eternal life -- not just WILL have -- but has it NOW? (John 3:36; 5:24; 17:3; 1 John 5:10-13).
IMHO, that is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.
***Great links! Thanks for posting them here.***
Great links but the internal link to the Mabelvale CofC does not work.
I used to seriously date a girl at that church. We planned to get married but she and her family were determined to convert me to their church and I balked. After a while she dropped me like a hot potato but I did learn a lot about CofC doctrine and is why I waded into the Campbellite wars here on FR several years ago.
Historically, some of Lds "apostles" (like John Widtsoe) even make improper distinctions between the Holy Ghost and the holy spirit (small "h" small "s" on the holy spirit). Widtsoe claimed that the holy spirit is an "it" -- like an influence.
To this day, Mormons will often reference the Holy Spirit as an "it." Molly Farmer did it a couple of times in a Feb. 24, 2010 article in the Mormon Times.
Joseph Smith made the same mistake.
Bottom line: If Mormons can't even figure out that the Holy Spirit is personal and is not an "it," what do you expect that they could elaborate on anything else about Him?
Thus my comment about the covenant with Abraham. If you read that account you will remember that God put Abraham in a deep sleep and God handled both sides of the covenant. God does the same with us.
Since Christians partake in the covenant with Abraham, and are explicitly his heirs.
We are saved by works. Just not our own.
Yet James was considered consistent with the rest of the Bible until the Luther left it out of his Sixteenth Century German translation. Prods were eventually shamed into putting James back but I agree that the Epistle is totally incompatible with the various strains of Protestant doctrine. This controversy is one of the many inconsistencies that eventually leads honest Protestants back to the Rock that is Rome.
Traditional Catholic catechism is simple enough for a six-year-old First Communion candidate to learn.
See Romans 2:1-11 (especially verses 6, 7, 10, and 11).
You were constantly "coached" into these ambiguities by the institutional "Church" to better control their flock and to extract attendance and money.I agree totally. James was the jealous brother of Jesus and was extremely envious of his deity and retaliated with his paper and pen. Just throw it out. They compiled the Bible in 362 and made many errors in the assembly of material.
Are you a Christian? Are you a member of a church?
James was the jealous brother of Jesus and was extremely envious of his deity and retaliated with his paper and pen.
Sect. 164.—........As to myself, I openly confess, that I should not wish “Free-will” to be granted me, even if it could be so, nor anything else to be left in my own hands, whereby I might endeavour something towards my own salvation. And that, not merely because in so many opposing dangers, and so many assaulting devils, I could not stand and hold it fast, (in which state no man could be saved, seeing that one devil is stronger than all men;) but because, even though there were no dangers, no conflicts, no devils, I should be compelled to labour under a continual uncertainty, and to beat the air only. Nor would my conscience, even if I should live and work to all eternity, ever come to a settled certainty, how much it ought to do in order to satisfy God. For whatever work should be done, there would still remain a scrupling, whether or not it pleased God, or whether He required any thing more; as is proved in the experience of all justiciaries, and as I myself learned to my bitter cost, through so many years of my own experience.
But now, since God has put my salvation out of the way of my will, and has taken it under His own, and has promised to save me, not according to my working or manner of life, but according to His own grace and mercy, I rest fully assured and persuaded that He is faithful, and will not lie, and moreover great and powerful, so that no devils, no adversities can destroy Him, or pluck me out of His hand. “No one (saith He) shall pluck them out of My hand, because My Father which gave them Me is greater than all.” (John x. 27-28). Hence it is certain, that in this way, if all are not saved, yet some, yea, many shall be saved; whereas by the power of “Free-will,” no one whatever could be saved, but all must perish together. And moreover, we are certain and persuaded, that in this way, we please God, not from the merit of our own works, but from the favour of His mercy promised unto us; and that, if we work less, or work badly, He does not impute it unto us, but, as a Father, pardons us and makes us better.—This is the glorying which all the saints have in their God!
From BONDAGE OF THE WILL by MARTIN lUTHER
I am very sincere in my desire to help anyone confused by ant organizes religious money raiser.
Yep
Matthew 5:17-19. You think Paul trumps Jesus? Good luck with that.
I am a member of Eklessia. The word “Church” was a creation in the 1630s of the King James Translation, There is no “Church” in the Bible. The Greek word in the Bible meabs— “Body of believers”!! That is all believers!! You don’t need a building with a mortgage and some egomaniac who makes his house payment and big car payment out of your gift the” god”.
Don’t you see ? When did Christ say that? Answer: BEFORE HE WENT TO THE CROSS!!! At which point you were saved by BELIEF in him as the son of GOD!!
***The Epistle of James should not be listed with the canonical books of the New Testament.***
The answer is simple.
Paul was writing to the Gentile believers as he was the Apostlt to the Gentiles.
James was writing “To the twelve tribes scattered abroad”. As on can see at the Jerusalem meeting between James and Paul, James still wanted the Jewish believers to keep the LAW of MOSES while Paul’s Gentile believers were free from that LAW.
You can’t mix Law and Grace. You can’t mix James and Paul.
When 2 Tm 3:16 says, All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work., does that include the Epistle of James?
First, let's discuss what is "correct" in what you wrote: Ecclesia or ekklesia is indeed the underlying Greek word for "church" in the New Testament and it simply means "called-out ones"...therefore, the emphasis is on the church being flesh-and-blood, NOT a brick-and-mortar building!
And it's unfortunate that the latter has overtaken the former in Western culture (and parts of Eastern culture as well).
As for your claim that this word "church" was a creation in the 1630s by the KJ translators...well...you either didn't take very good notes from whatever "sermon" or "message" you heard that from...or, you've been fed a falsehood that you swallowed whole.
Now at this point I won't go through the entire etymology of the word, "church" -- but just to show you how wrong you are...John Wycliffe was part of a pre-reformation movement in Britain in the late 14th century. He encouraged his followers to translate Jerome's Vulgate version of the Bible into Middle English, which they accomplished between 1382-1395 -- so that was 216 years before the King James translators finished their version (1611).
Wycliffe's Bible version is online. You can see it here: Wycliffe version.
As an example of his use of the word "church," you can go here to Eph. 1:22 where you will see the Middle English spelling version, chirche: Effesies [Ephesians]
So, if your memory was "off" -- well, that "happens." But...But...But...if somebody fed you the line that the KJ translators "made it up," then you need to take that falsehood and run it right back up the line where you heard it from...And ask them why they are exporting falsehoods. (And at the same time, ask them what other tall tales were told in the name of "truth").
What an officious falsehood you propound. “Church” etymology, as you well know ,but do not wish to reveal ,is from the pagan concept of “circe” (from circa 900) or “kirke” (circa 1500) referring to the pagan practice of sitting in a circle and worshiping rocks. King James noticed that the practice gave control over the attendees, while Ekklesia gave him no control. The Catholic monarchy was quite ready for the change as well. Every time you see “Church” in the Bible (154 times) ,know that it was a ploy to herd idiots and should be translated “ALL BELIEVERS IN JESUS AS THE SON OF GOD!!” http://antinomianism-salvation.blogspot.com/
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