Posted on 12/13/2010 11:56:24 PM PST by RJR_fan
... Perhaps Jerry most grabbed my attention early on in the film when he emphasized that the argument over dispensationalism does not merely pertain to one doctrine in the way that, say, arguments over baptism, or church government, etc., have limited effects. Instead, the dispensational system has universal implications for the Christian faith. It, in fact, has impacted the fate of Western Civilization. This claim jerked me to reality, mainly because—it’s absolutely correct and so absolutely important. ...
That the greatest historical waning of Christian influence throughout the world has occurred parallel to the rise of dispensationalism, I believe, is no mere coincidence. Cultural retreatism has its consequences. ...
The history behind Darby, Scofield, Chafer and others puts the emergence of the dispensational system in a new light, helping the viewer see how and why the system grew so popular in American culture, while at the same time showing some of its numerous deficiencies. I appreciated one insight that puts dispensationalism in its peculiar historical context: it belongs historically to an era in which individualistic prophecy experts appeared all over, pronouncing themselves as the ones who would “raise up the true church” once again. Most of these groups we today mark clearly as “Cults,” including Joseph Smith’s Mormonism, William Miller’s millenarianism, and Charles Taze Russell’s Jehovah’s Witnesses. The lumping of these types with Darby’s novel dispensationalism by no means equates them, but to see their similarities in emergence and methodology provides a helpful insight into their appeal and success.
Dispensationalism and the literal reading of the Bible is a huge threat to the spiritually dead churches of the old religious establishments. For so long, they have convinced themselves that huge portions of Scripture, and entire books, are optional, and if a person's personal opinions about a Biblical matter make one feel better than what is in the Bible, then the personal opinion becomes inerrant truth, with the Bible still optional. And its just not fashionable, if one fancies oneself an intellectual, to believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible. That's for simpletons and, besides that, it simply doesn't make one look good at the golf club.
It is enormously comforting to "rest" in the belief that the Bible is a collection of allegories, maybe a half step up from Grimm's Fairy Tales. It is comforting to know that the Scriptures can be whatever you want them to be and if you're not completely sure that you're ready to meet Christ, well, all of that Revelation stuff already happened in 70AD so there's nothing to worry about.
There is a reason why people will obsessively stalk prophecy threads for the purpose of denying the fact that the stage is rapidly being set for the events that God told us would precede His return. If they can deny it often enough and loudly enough, the delusion that the prophetic Scriptures will never actually come to pass can survive another day.
>>If they can deny it often enough and loudly enough, the delusion that the prophetic Scriptures will never actually come to pass can survive another day.<<
I have been thinking along those same lines today. I’ve asked myself “what are they so afraid of”? It seems an obsession that is being driven by some fear. I’m sure the need to surround themselves with like minds is involved and if, like you say, they can silence truth it may go away. I think the “thief in the night” prophecy will catch them unaware. We can only hope the surprise is when they are taken up with the rest of us as opposed to realizing what just happened.
I was also wondering if a prophecy caucus would be an appropriate forum to discuss rather then open threads.
Excellent notion, CynicalBear!
I was struck by the similarity of the Roman Catholic approach to typology with that of dispensationalism.
Compare and contrast Geerhardus Vos (your classic amillenial theologian) on the proper use of typology:
"...Thus what is symbolical with regard to the already existing edition of the fact or truth becomes typical, prophetic of the later, final edition of the same fact or truth. From this it will be percieved that a type can never be a type independently of its being first a symbol. The gateway to the house of typology is at the farther end of he house of symbolism."This is the fundamental rule to be observed in ascertaining what elements in the Old Testament are typical, and wherein the things corresponding to them as antitypes consist. Only after having discovered what a thing symbolizes, can we legitmately proceed to put the question what it symbolizes, for the latter can never be aught else than the former lifted to a higher plane. ...When this is ignored, and in the place of this bond are put accidental resemblences, void of inherent spiritual signification, all sorts of absurdities will result, such as must bring the whole subject of typology into disrepute. Examples of this are: the scarlet cord of Rahab prefigures the blood of Christ; the four lepers of Samaria, the four Evangelists." --Geerhardus Vos, Biblical Theology, p145-6, as part of a longer section on typology.
I can almost hear the screeching now. "Scripture twisters!"
I was also wondering if a prophecy caucus would be an appropriate forum to discuss rather then open threads.
There's already a "dispensational caucus". If you start up a "prophecy caucus" and use it to limit discussion to prophecy considered from a dispensational viewpoint, you've hijacked the term.
Hiding in a “prophecy caucus”? (Hey, I believe in prophecy, just not the futurist, extremist, full-contact variety.) To quote someone here, I’ve asked myself “what are they so afraid of”?
So, what you are saying is that the actual timing of the rapture is unimportant since these are things true Christians have practiced throughout the ages.
So why all the rapture hype theses days? Why not more emphasis on kingdom building ala Matthew 28:19,20?
There is tremendous motivation for godly living in the premillenial scheme as the return of Christ in the rapture is an imminent event, it can happen at any time and there is nothing that has to happen prior.
Imminence ala date-setting/date-suggesting is not what is found in the Bible. Imminence as as we find it in the Bible and what Christians have believed for 2000 years is not the sole domain of the premils.
An amateur psychologist as well as an amateur eschatologist. What leads you to that conclusion, Dr. CB?
I’m sure the need to surround themselves with like minds is involved and if, like you say, they can silence truth it may go away.
You folks have a nice “amen corner” yourself. Now you want hide behind a caucus label. Truth doesn't need to hide behind a screen.
>>Hiding in a “prophecy caucus”?<<
You have pretty much staked your position and it’s time I “shook the dust from my shoes” and would rather spend time in other pursuits.
Agreed ... so?
Imminence as as we find it in the Bible and what Christians have believed for 2000 years is not the sole domain of the premils.
Never said that ... but you can throw out most flavors of theology hiding in reformed circles.
Throw out preterists ... Christ already came back.
Throw out post-mils ... because the millenium isnt over yet.
Throw out the reconstructionists ... the world hasnt been evangelized.
Its easier for you to assume all dispensationalists are date setting because we recognize the beginning of birth pangs.
***How does one prepare for the Rapture?***
For just one second, let’s assume that there will be a rapture as defined by our dispensational friends.
Isn’t it just a tad arrogant to assume it will happen during your lifetime? Christ ascended into Heaven 2000ish years ago, why do Dispys think He will return during their time on this earth?
Wouldn’t a far better question, more relevant be how do I prepare for my death, which is what every person has encountered? Irregardless if you are a Dispy, Amil, Premil or Classical Premil?
The Heidelberg Catechism Question provides a great answer to that far more relevant issue:
1. What is thy only comfort in life and death?
Answer: That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him.
I’ll make this point one more time since it never seems to stick, orthodox preterists like myself believe Christ’s Second Coming is still future. We also believe that many (all) of the prophecies related to Israel the nation were fulfilled in the events leading up to AD70 and the destruction of the temple. Even some futurists admit such is the case in limited circumstances, e.g., Luke 21:20, usually going on to justify their views with creative interpretative principles like double fulfillment.
Its easier for you to assume all dispensationalists are date setting because we recognize the beginning of birth pangs.
Your compatriot CynicalBear believes that the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 will happen within a year, and that Christ will return within seven or eight years. How is this not a form of date-setting/date-suggesting? If I said “all dispensationalists” are date setters, I apologize. The System® as understood and preached today by the prophecy pimps promotes date-setting. Most dispensationalists are either overt or covert date-setters. Better?
Ezekiel 39:9.
>>Ezekiel 39:9<<
No problem with that one. How would you think the writer of that time would describe weapons? If you say God would have known it wouldn’t have been written as todays weapons anyway or no one throughout the ages would have taken the Bible seriously. Didn’t it say to shut up he prophecy until the time of the end. Couldn’t it be now that we are just starting to really understand what the prophecies meant if it is in fact the time of the end?
By definition, the millennium is over when Christ returns.
Throw out the reconstructionists ... the world hasnt been evangelized.
Not sure where that claim comes from. Who have you been reading?
Why would a so-called literalist believe that’s what the writer is doing? They would first have to eisegete the text in order to ask that question. See here.
BTW, this is the same argument theologically liberal evolutionists use to explain the language of Genesis 1-3.
Getting lazy in your old age cat ...
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.At the end, Christ delivers up the kingdom to the Father. In order to make all the texts fit together you must believe that the “thousand years” of Rev. 20 is some time prior to what Paul is describing here. The premillennialist has the kingdom still on earth after the second coming, not yet delivered to the Father. The premillennialist has the kingdom still subject to sin, death, and misery … and satanic influences. This is not the post-second coming kingdom of Scripture.
The premillennialist picks and chooses to believe only those texts that fit his system.
I think I just had an epiphany ... you have no clue what the dispensationalist believes ...
I am going to dinner now ... but I will respond to this one as you have butchered it so badly.
those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end,
There's a big gap between the period and the "T".
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