Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
my idol wasnt worshipped, she was ventilated
She received grace; salvific grace... but it didn’t make her sinless in her person as in born sinless. Just showed you the scriptures to that effect and it went right over your head. Or you choose to ignore God’s word.
Hoss
What staff treatment decision are you talking about?
What part of nursing practice, other than directly participaing in an abortion, which the conscience clause protects nurses against, do you speculate would be influenced by a particular religion? Setting up IVs? Starting TPN? Giving a bedbath? Changing dressings? Administering medication? Irrigating a PICC line? Very seldom are nurses even aware of client religion or lack of it. Doing an EKG? Assessing body systems from head to toe? Sitting in a treatment plan meeting? Charting?
No... you didn’t. You put words in his mouth. Since you’re having trouble with this, let me refresh your memory:
roamer_1, post 877
“I use the Protestant canon primarily (because it is made of the books which are absolutely accepted by all), but yes, I do have Maccabees, and have studied it quite a bit, as with the many other books which might even remotely be attributed to the prophets/agents of YHWH. “
You, from post 884
“Interesting. Not the reply I expected. So you believe in making your own Canon for your own personal use? Have I understood you correctly?”
He in no way said ANYTHING about making a personal Canon. Yet, you ask him, ‘So you believe in making your own Canon for your own personal use?’
You put words in his mouth. That is disingenuous at best. And you won’t admit to it. You try to change the conversation. Sorry — but it’s in black and white. You didn’t ask if you understood him correctly; you set it up to make it seem as if he had said had made his own personal Canon.
Big BIG difference.
Hoss
Slick.
They each illustrate and answer a part of your question - kneeling, honoring, etc..
How do you communicate with them? How do you wing your requests to them?
I pray.
How do you make them hear you?
I pray louder. :)
Kidding aside, you would need to understand and more fully know the Communion of Saints as in the creeds. Without this, the rest is, at least in part, incomprehensible to you.
In short, we are one, as Jesus prayed in the garden. One in the Body of Christ. In communion - unity. There is no separation, no one outside to yell at in order to make them hear us.
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
but it DOES! In a list of places well documented hereon. However, INSTITUTIONALIZED BLINDNESS prevails.
Clearly you don't. Nor do a list of other RC's hereon. Shocking.
I don't have the time and energy etc. to give even a short course in psycho-linguistics nor socio-linguistics. However, for some lurkers who still have the capacity to reason and some at least minimally functioning ears to hear and eyes to see . . .
GOD BEARER =
Bearing God; Carrying God; Transporting God; serving God as a cup bearer serves a king . . .
MOTHER OF GOD
brazenly IMPLIES, HINTS AT, ASSERTS PSYCHO-LINGUISTICALLY AND SOCIOLINGUISTICALLY THAT
Mary was BEFORE AND/OR ABOVE GOD ALMIGHTY and continues in some sort of PARENTAL ROLE over HIM.
THAT IS BLATANTLY FALSE, WRONG, INACCURATE, A DECEPTION, A LIE.
That the Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling edifice is so brazenly stubborn about CONTINUING TO PROPAGATE THAT DECEPTION, THAT LIE, THAT IMPLICATION
IS VERY TELLING in terms of the idolatries involved.
Now, of course, the weasel worded rationalizations and denials will begin.
Correct. There are numerous man-made additions and expansions (see Mary) which are simply not supported, or even implied, by scripture.
I believe these additions to be both unnecessary and potentially hazardous, inasmuch that we as Christians should attempt neither to add nor take away from God's Word.
You’ll likely become a fossilized marblized rock waiting for RC’s hereon to apologize.
It’s against their RELIGION.
There’s probably a pile of White Hanky orders against it.
Excellent - I am very partial to Enoch. Sadly, it is fairly far from it's roots, but I do think the roots are there. It would be interesting to find out what your final analysis is... And one should read Jasher right after Enoch - They kinda go together...
There was some talk of starting a thread on Enoch... Quite a few of the Protestants are reading it - Duno what happened to that idea.
[roamer_1:] So, until the original (Hebrew) texts emerge, It is my opinion that the “new” must be proved in the “old” - quite the reverse of what is commonly insisted upon.
Too true. Too true. Kindred soul here. Yes, it is most unfortunate that we do not possess hebrew originals. Even the earliest Greek stuff only goes back to mid 4th century. There’s a lot of miles left to go.
You may be interested in the Shem Tov Matthew. No doubt it is far from it's root too, but there are tantalizing bits and pieces that are really enlightening. This vid is very enjoyable - Nehemiah Gordon, a Karaite Jew and scholar, speaks about the implications wrt Matthew 23. Note that I do not endorse the Shem Tov in it's current form, but Gordon makes a lot of sense. Pop me a FRe-mail and tell me what you think.
... An Old Covenant seeking Catholic... Now THAT's interesting...
I’d be more comfortable with the Masoretic text if they had an earlier date. I’m not sure quite what Jerome used, but there is a fair gap from the earliest Masoretic texts we have and Jerome.
I find that to be less of a problem. The Pharisees are the single official body from the Temple proper, where the main (official) copies of the Tanakh were kept. Equally worthy of consideration, the solemn duty with which the Scriptures were kept - Especially in the Hebrew, and one would think, particularly among those of the Temple.
The Oracles of YHWH were committed to the Hebrews- Why would I be interested in translations rather than the existing source? And, as it turns out, the DSS support the Masoretic texts, almost exclusively - bumping them back (albeit fragmented in some/most cases) to the 2nd Temple period.
Thank you for your time sir, and I hope you have a wonderful day.
Same to you, and I mean that. I probably wouldn't see any reply today, as we are off to my mother's house for an early Christmas ... with dinner, and PIE. So I fully expect to be an over-stuffed sodden lump for the remainder of the day.
Classification Protestant
Theology Reformed Evangelical
Governance Presbyterian
Origin June 11, 1936
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Separated from Presbyterian Church in the United States of America
Separations Bible Presbyterian Church
Congregations 255
Members 29,421
(ministers: 485
communicants: 21,123
non-communicants: 7,813)
Statistics for 2009[1]
Well son of a gun. We have a here a church founded by men. Not Christ, not God, and not growing.
Where does scripture say that Mary was not bodily assumed? Scripture says nothing about it.
Why that's obvious--it's in the same chapter that declares that Mary was not a streetwalker. Probably before the verse that says she was not a carnival barker nor a mine laying porpoise. It might have been after the verses declaring that she was NOT an astronaut nor a tight-rope walker.
I don't recall if it was before or after the paragraphs declaring that she was NOT a channeler of fallen angels/ET's; . . . that she was NOT a dog trainer nor a calf roper; nor a DIMRAT politician; nor a TV talk show hostess; nor a hog feeder; nor a mud wrestler; nor a snake charmmer; nor a sewer cleaner; nor a cake decorator; nor a makeup-artist; nor a rock star; nor a TSA airport groper.
Where does it say that Mary was sinful? Not found in scripture either.
Ahhhhhhhhhhh but you are 100% WRONG, THERE.
Romans 3:23
“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
I realize that the Vatican Vulcanized psudo-'bible' may well not have that verse in it.
I also realize that thick layers of White Hanky'd rationalizations, weasel worded justifications etc. will negate any Scripture the Vatican AIWSOTARM finds inconvenient to its idolatries.
EXCEPT, when IT IS CONTRARY TO SCRIPTURE, of course.
...Which would seem to be most of the time. ; )
Of course.
The White Hanky’d Encyclicals purportedly falling from Heaven always take priority over Scripture in the perspectives of a huge percentage of RC’s . . . at least as far as we can tell from the FR REPS of the VAIWSOTARM.
Evidently you are forgetting again . . .
that I never hired you as
—my style coach;
—my editor;
—my linguistic analyst;
—my vocabulary coach;
—my daffynitionary.
“Why would I be interested in translations rather than the existing source? And, as it turns out, the DSS support the Masoretic texts, almost exclusively - bumping them back (albeit fragmented in some/most cases) to the 2nd Temple period.”
I don’t disagree. My only qualm is the lateness of the Masoretic text in it’s entirety. The translation is only superior insofar as one assumes use of textual sources unavailable today. I don’t believe Jerome would have used anything but the best he had available, and sadly today we no longer have what he possessed.
Perhaps one day we will uncover his sources, as well as Origen’s Hexapla. That would push NT scholarship back another century.
News to me. Though I don’t always keep track of such things.
If there’s a problem with photos, I trust the RM will tell me.
I had one of those plastic icon image statues with the screw off bottom containing rosaries, also! Forgot about it.
Not too strange, that a Mary icon would be a first prize, then a saint and Jesus as last prize. All subtle propaganda in play.
Did they have the words ‘deception’ and ‘propaganda’ and ‘control’ in your spelling bee and use them in a sentence? ;) I’d have some fun with that if I knew back then what I know now. Perhaps, excommunication would be ‘the word for the day’.
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