Posted on 01/03/2011 9:50:11 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. .. “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.”Zech 12;10-13:1
Here is their atonement, through the One pierced for them...
Here also- 5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53;5-6
| Isaiah 53 JPS |
Isaiah 53 KJV |
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| 53:1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of YHWH been revealed? |
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? |
| 53:2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him. |
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. |
| First problem. The JPS renders the verse in the past tense. The KJV uses future and present tense. |
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| 53:3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not. |
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. |
| The JPS uses past tense. The KJV uses present tense. |
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| These verses describe the amazement of the world when they see the Jewish people redeemed. In particular, these verses describe how the nations "despised" the Jewish people and gave "no regard" for them. The reason it is written in the singular is because the Jews are regarded as one body, called "Israel." There are many instances of the Jewish people being referred to with a singular pronoun throughout the Torah. Israel gets redeemed as shown in Zechariah 8:23. Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you. |
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| 53:4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. |
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. |
| These verses explain how nations punished Israel for their own reasons. Throughout the last two thousand years of the Jews' exile from their homeland, a startling pattern emerges. Whenever the people of a gentile country weren't doing well, whether politically or economically, the non-Jews sought to put blame on someone for their ills. Quite often the Jews. From the perspective of the gentile kings speaking in this narrative, "he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" refers to blaming the Jews for everything from economic failure to the Black Death. The easily-used excuse made by the Christians and the Muslims was that the Jews were rejected of G-d. This is the view of the gentile kings being expressed by the second half of the verse. |
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| 53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. |
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. |
| Again the JPS uses the past tense, while the KJV uses past and present tense. |
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| The healing is the end of the sickness of anti-Semitism that the nations will experience when they receive the revelation about the Jews at the End of Days. The Redemption of Israel. See Zechariah 8:23 above. |
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| 53:6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and YHWH hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all. |
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. |
| This verse is talking again about how the gentile nations had laid their problems on the Jewish people. i.e. inciting violence against the Jews with blood libels, ficticious literature like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc. |
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| 53:7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth. |
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. |
| Verse seven prophesizes regarding the many hardships they would endure in their exile. A look at history will prove that these prophecies have already become true. In the 11th century CE Jews were "persecuted and afflicted" by crusaders who brutally tortured and killed Jews in the name of their lord Jesus. In this century the Nazis "led" the Jews "to the slaughter" like a "lamb that is silent before her shearers." |
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| Can verse 7 apply to Yehoshua? Matthew 26:39 has Yehoshua praying to YHWH to help him avoid his fate, so Yehoshua did open his mouth. Yehoshua opens his mouth again, while on the cross in saying "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" So, no, it seems that verse 7 does not apply to Yehoshua. |
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| 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due. |
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. |
| Having been "exiled" from the "Land of the Living" (the Land of Israel) it appeared to the world that the Jews would die out all together. |
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| 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.' |
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. |
| There are countless stories throughout history, of Jews who were given the alternative to accept Jesus or die by the edge of a sword. Instead of profaning themselves with conversion they "submitted themselves to the grave" and died the death of a common criminal. Also "wealthy" Jews were executed while "committing no crime," only so that they could robbed of their riches. |
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| 53:10 Yet it pleased YHWH to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of YHWH might prosper by his hand: |
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. |
| First of all, the word used for 'seed' is zera` zeh'-rah, which refers to physical children. YHWH desired to oppress him (Israel) "because they deserved to be punished for their sins. If the Jews would only "acknowledge" their "guilt" they would be able to see their "offspring and live long days." |
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| 53:11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear. |
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. |
| Here the narration changes from the gentile kings to YHWH Himself. From this point on, the chapter is foretelling the reward that YHWH will grant Israel for enduring the exile and never losing faith in Him .Verse eleven talks about Israel, and how they will teach all the nations about YHWH. |
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| Does verse 11 speak of Yehoshua? Where in the New Testament is it told that Yehoshua's knowledge vindicated anybody? "by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many" The writings of Paul say that it is Yehoshua's blood that justifies, not Yehoshua's knowledge! So, no, verse 11 does not seem to be about Yehoshua either. |
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| 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. |
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. |
| Verse twelve talks of how the Jews pray for the welfare of the nations they are exiled into. |
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You know as well as i do that the early Jewish sages considered Isaiah 53 to be speaking of the Messiah. it was only because Jesus so perfectly fulfilled this prophecy that the Rabbi’s changed their tune about it.
BTW I do believe that in part it speaks of Israel, because the Messiah becomes the ultimate representative of Israel, He it is who is “the servant of the LORD”
Say Shalom to my friend Blasaster!
Paul the Apostle, on Being justified by Knowing Jesus Christ-
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.(Phillipians 3)
God did not tell the Jewish people that they would suffer and die for anyone’s sins but their own- the Jews have not been “chastised for my iniquities” they have suffered for their own, but the Jewish Messiah has suffered for my iniquities as Isaiah predicted he would-
I once read a rabbi's explanation of it as being that Adam was the first "spiritually aware" man -- that there were men and women created in Genesis 1:26-30 who were the regular men and women, and that Adam and Eve of Genesis 2 were separate from the other men and women, being spiritually aware and thus the first true people. Cain went to live with these earlier people.
Why are you trying to mislead people? That is NOT what Isaiah said.
Isaiah 59 (JPS)
20 And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith YHWH.
Isaiah 59 (NASB)
20 "A (1) Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who (2) turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD.
It is reiterated in Ezekiel
Ezekiel 18
30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "(1) Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31 "(2) Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a (3) new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
You have to change and remove your iniquities yourself. It isn't going to be done for you, like some type of bailout or welfare program.
Sounds amazingly like what you're doing, actually. The Cain you describe is an ideal prototype human being, without need to apply it to any particular religion.
You aren't supposed to bend and stretch Scripture to suit your own little religious hatreds. It's so very Islamic....
I am supposed to interpret all of life through the lens of scripture. I am not saying that Cain worshipped Allah , I am just pointing out that there are parallels between the spirit that animates Islam and that which Cain operated in. I have not bent scripture. There will always be Cain’s, Goliath’s, Esau’s,Ishmaiels and Haman’s . Pointing them out in modern setting is not te same as “bending and stretching scripture”.
Was Jude bending and stretching scripture when he compared false prophets to Cain and Balaam?
Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
One more thing- I plead guilty to hating Islam- all decent people do. But I love Muslims, and would never use scripture for the service of “little religious hatreds”-
Calling me “Islamic “ is over the top don’t you think? Lets have a civil discussion if al all possible.
That is like saying that all murderers are Islamic in spirit. Why stop there. Continue with your broad brush stoke and say that all sinners are Islamic in spirit.
No it isn’t, Not all muderers are monotheists, nor are they concerned about worship, nor are they into “works righteousness”, Why does jude just refer to false prophets as being like Cain? By your logic he shouldn’t limit it to false prophets, he should just say everyone is like Cain.
Was Cain a prophet?
No He wasn’t. Jude compared false prophets to Cain though.
More like, you were "behaving Islamically."
Cain is not a model for Islam. What Cain did, is what people of ALL religions, have done since the Fall.
You hate Islam -- fine. But don't play your little Scripture games to justify your hatred.
I meant it in the sense that Neanderthals were not fully human, ie not chosen by God to be fully human, free will, capable of attaining heaven - not unlike an advanced chimpanzee.
Lurking’
You still havn’t answered my question, why wasn’t Jude wrong for comparing Cain to false prophets? Was he also playing ‘little scripture games”? Would you mind toning down the bitter rhetoric?
"Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness." (James 3:1)
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy brother- I made a very similar observation to the one that Jude made, seeing in Cain an example of what we are seeing today- you don’t get that and I have no problem with that, however, I am not twisting scriptures-
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