Posted on 01/03/2011 9:50:11 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
I think the interpretation which merely portrays Abel’s work as more pleasing to God than that of Cain is not nearly as appropriate or accurate as that which identifies confession and redemption in a blood sacrifice as preferable to God over prideful works.
Actually, the wrath described in Zech 13:8 against Israel appears significantly more severe than against the rest of the world at any point in time. Two-thirds of Israel is “cut off” (destroyed) and only one-third survives to see the salvation of the Lord. No other judgment in Scripture has this high a ratio of unsaved to saved as here in Zechariah.
Also, the sins described in Zech. 13 are specifically idolatry, false prophecy, and unclean spirits (v. 2-4). These were sins specific to Israel as the old covenant people of God.
It's more than mere unbelief. Clearly Zechariah is identifying Israel's sin with specific sins against God in the context of that unique covenant relationship.
I already showed where blood sacrifice was NOT necessary for redemption.
Tell me, where does the idea of blood sacrifice for redemption come from?
Jeremiah 7
22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
Hosea 3
4 For the children of Israel shall sit solitary many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without pillar, and without ephod or teraphim;
5 afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek YHWH their God, and David their king; and shall come trembling unto YHWH and to His goodness in the end of days.
Hosea 6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 14
2 Take with you words, and return unto YHWH; say unto Him: 'Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips.
Prayers instead of sacrifices.
(JPS) Isaiah 1
10 Hear the word of YHWH, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith YHWH; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations -- I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly.
14 Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHWH; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land;
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of YHWH hath spoken.
These verses in my opinion really tell the story. YHWH asks them 'who told them to sacrifice animals?' He calls them vain oblations. Why? Some claim its is because the people were not contrite, but I disagree. The iniquity among the solemn assembly IS the oblations. YHWH tells us it is because the people are doing it for themselves (vanity) of their own accord and not YHWH's. YHWH calls them an abomination. It is my belief that this IS why the Temple keeps getting destroyed. Because YHWH considers the sacrifices an abomination. YHWH even tells them that they have blood on their hands.
Psalm 51
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
1 Samuel 15:22
And Samuel said: 'Hath YHWH as great delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifices, as in hearkening to the voice of YHWH? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
Psalm 40
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Micah 6
6 'Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before Him with burnt-offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?'
8 It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what YHWH doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.
Throughout the Jewish scriptures, the prophets declared that repentance and charity are more pleasing to God for atonement than a blood sacrifice. I think there is good indication that sacrifices were never meant to be. Jeremiah 7:22-24. But, since they were utilized, against YHWH's wishes, I think sacrifices were to be replaced with PRAYER! Hosea 14:2.
Notice also the verse about how YHWH doesn't require the sacrifice of a firstborn for the transgression of sin -- atonement! SPEAKS VOLUMES.
Jeremiah 31:2 Thus saith YHWH: the people that were left of the sword have found grace in the wilderness, even Israel, when I go to cause him to rest.
God promises the descendants of Israel who, through captivity, exile, and intermarriage with Gentiles became assimilated and inculturated Gentiles today that they will find "grace in the wilderness".
“It may very well be a pagan practice that they brought back with them after their captivity.”
To the contrary—it’s part of God’s plan.
Plenty of verses as posted that disagree.
But this is after the thousand years.
What time is Zech. 13:8,9 speaking of? It's prior to the thousand years, no? This is temporal punishment, not eternal ala Rev. 20. And it is speaking of divine wrath being poured out in a measure that surpasses the rest of the nations during this same time.
I'm still curious as to why you believe God has this level of future wrath in store particularly for modern Israel? Especially in light of your earlier comment that Israel's sin is no different from that of the other nations. Zech. 13 seems to say otherwise.
The judgments poured out upon Israel, are covenant sanctions, but will be tempered with mercy, they will look on Him whom they have pierced.... The coming Judgments on the nations of the world are punitive, the wicked shall be cast into hell and all nations that forget God.
If by that you mean He could have destroyed all of the nation, rather than just two-thirds, I would agree. How do you not see this as punitive? It is clearly meant to punish, just as other past judgments have been punishment against the nation for their specific sins. John Walvoord put it this way:
The purge of Israel in their time of trouble is described by Zechariah in these words: “And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third Part 1nto the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried” (Zechariah 13:8, 9). According to Zechariah’s prophecy, two thirds of the children of Israel in the land will perish, but the one third that are left will be refined and be awaiting the deliverance of God at the second coming of Christ which is described in the next chapter of Zechariah. (John F. Walvoord, Israel in Prophecy (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan/Academie, [1962] 1988) 108.)The reason that I have pressed you on this is because I do not believe the divine punishment of Zech. 13:8,9 is still future. I believe it is speaking of a past judgment against the nation that has been fully paid. God is no longer in the vengeance business based on race or ethnicity. There is nothing modern Jews/Israel could do to deserve this kind of covenantal judgment. In fact, any suggestion otherwise is pure anti-semitism in my opinion. (Many folks used a similar argument during the holocaust of WWII.)
The nation has suffered for its sin of rejecting the Messiah (Matt. 23:34ff). This happened, those “days of vengeance,” in AD70 when the temple was destroyed and the kingdom removed from those people (Luke 21:20ff; Matt. 21:43; Matt. 27:25).
The only wrath of God remaining is eternal, not temporal. It will be at the second coming against all those who dwell in the earth who know not the Christ. The King of kings will return to judge all the nation, blessing those (the regenerate) who follow Him and punishing the wicked/unregenerate with everlasting torment (Matt. 25:31ff; Rev. 20:11ff). The remnant of Israel will receive her eternal reward along with the rest of Christ’s body, the Church. We shall all be blessed to occupy the new Jerusalem come down from heaven together as we worship around the throne of the Lamb.
Possibly, basically the Jewish opinion is, we can either do this the easy way or the hard way. If the Jewish people do Teshuva (repent) the messianic era will be ushered in without too much travail. If the Jewish people dont do teshuva, the messianic era comes with great pain. The war of Gog-Magag still happens either way though. Some think that even gog-magog is conditional. Looking at the events as they are unfolding, I think it is going to be the hard way. Although, the religious segment in Israel is growing and will out birth the secular in a generation...it may not be enough...
Well, this makes my point in a way. It’s a legitimate view if you assume Messiah has not yet appeared. However, for the Christian it’s an untenable position. God will not impose double jeopardy on a people or nation. The Messiah provided ample warning to that “generation” that judgment would come upon those who rejected the “son of the landowner” (Matt. 21:33ff).
33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.Those who rejected the Messiah suffered for the specific sin of killing the prophets (Matt. 23:31). God’s requirement for justice is fulfilled and past. There is no future holocaust awaiting the Jewish people for covenant-related sins.
34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit.
35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.
36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.
37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.'
39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?"
I would tend to agree. (Do you have a scripture for that btw?) However, it doesnt mean that the nations will not continue to attempt to slaughter the Jews, which would not be of G-ds doing but the nations sinning on their own. That is the ultimate message of the Prophet Isaiah. Did Israel sin and deserve punishment by G-d? Yes. Did or does G-d sanction murder of the Jewish people? No. And the nations will be crushed for murdering the Jews. But Isaiah does say regarding the messianic era: 40:2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and proclaim to her that her hard service has been completed, that her sin has been paid for, that she has received from the LORD’s hand double for all her sins.
Her sin will be paid for having recieved double for her sins!
G-d will then punish the nations for going way too far.
Zeph 3:I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them— all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. 19 At that time I will deal with all who oppressed you.
As far as the parable goes. The premise of the parable is wrong.
The Messiah provided ample warning to that “generation” that judgment would come upon those who rejected the “son of the landowner”
Never in the Tanakh(OT) are the Jewish people prophesied to be punished for not believing in The Messiah. Why? Because it will not take an act of faith to believe in him. It will be plainly evident to all because they will see his accomplishments, compare the accomplishments to scripture and viola, it is him! Or, it is NOT him. When the Messiah comes there will be univseral knowlege of G-d, The temple will be rebuilt, Sacrifices will resume (Ezek 44), there will be peace on earth, the lost tribes will return, etc. No guess work there! No faith required! And ONLY when those things have occured, past tense, will the doer of those things be considered Messiah ben David. Not a promise in the future, not second coming, done. complete. first time. Nor is there any Prophet that instructs the people to worship a crucified messiah, a god-man messiah or worship a messiah of any kind.
35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.
This is another false premise. Not all the vindressers were in favor of this or guilty of the crime. There were a group or remnant who did listen to the landowner, furthermore, the servants belonged to the same family as the vinedressers.
37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?"
The parable assumes that the Landowner gave all the information to the vinedressers that they needed. That is not the case is it!
What if 1500 years before, the Landowner told the vinedressers that He is alone, a solitary Landowner, none besides Him, no other Savior and told them that if anyone comes to teach them otherwise, to consider them a false servant and to kill that servant? You cant fault the vinedressers for believing for 1500 years that there was NO SON of the Landowner and then not believeing someone who shows up claiming to be the Landowners Son and in fact, the Landowner himself! Of course they are not going to accept that persons claims. The vinedressers were told exactly what to expect of the final Servant who was to come and he did not meet those requirements. So, he is one of many false servants. The parable is not a truthful representation of what it is supposed to represent.
shalom
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