Posted on 03/22/2011 6:36:53 AM PDT by topcat54
Like [Hal] Lindsey and many who preceded and followed him in pronouncing their generation as “terminal,” [Jeff] Lasseigne is constrained by his dispensational hermeneutic to offer a worldview that is really an “upper-world worldview”:
Or as John MacArthur said, “Man’s efforts to bring about a better world . . . amount to little more than rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic to give everyone a better view as the ship sinks” (196).[3]The “rapture” has been a convenient escape hatch for Christians. When times worsened, the “rapture” was preached with great vitality. Millions were assured that before all hell breaks loose that they would be taken to heaven to watch the Great Tribulation from up above the heavens so bright.
Lasseigne manufactures a “rapture” theology in Revelation 4:1–2. John told to “come up here” is thought to be a “symbolic picture of the rapture” (76). This is a common interpretation among dispensationalists. Lasseigne isn’t the first one to use it. Tim LaHaye made it the cornerstone of his Revelation rapture theology. For those who claim to interpret prophecy literally, Revelation 4:1-2 says nothing about the church being taken to heaven prior to a seven-year tribulation period, but LaHaye argues for it anyway even though the phrase “seven years” does not appear in Revelation.
(Excerpt) Read more at americanvision.org ...
I guess I just don't see where some people get the idea that they are going to escape the tribulation. The wicked are removed first.
I think the tribulation is the judgement. No one escapes the judgement.
Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Rewards aren't given prior, they are given after.
Psalm 37 (JPS)
9 For evil-doers shall be cut off; but those that wait for YHWH, they shall inherit the land.
20 For the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of YHWH shall be as the fat of lambs -- they shall pass away in smoke, they shall pass away.
22 For such as are blessed of Him shall inherit the land; and they that are cursed of Him shall be cut off.
23 It is of YHWH that a man's goings are established; and He delighted in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for YHWH upholdeth his hand.
27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
28 For YHWH loveth justice, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever; but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
33 YHWH will not leave him in his hand, nor suffer him to be condemned when he is judged.
34 Wait for YHWH, and keep His way, and He will exalt thee to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
38 But transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.
39 But the salvation of the righteous is of YHWH; He is their stronghold in the time of trouble.
40 And YHWH helpeth them, and delivereth them; He delivereth them from the wicked, and saveth them, because they have taken refuge in Him.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Alive and remain. This indicates that some are dead and gone already. (The wicked)
It might be that during this period of being caught up in the air, is when the new earth and heaven are created.
That reads like those are the ones that survived the Tribulation.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
A lot of what you say has been on my mind reading this thread. If one cannot discuss the Bible without being rude, then they should probably not do so.
>>That reads like those are the ones that survived the Tribulation.<<
Precisely. I believe there will be a “rapture”, but I am a mid-tribulationist, which is technically “post-trib, pre-wrath”.
The scripture I posted marks the end of the 3.5 year tribulation against the saints and the 3.5 year wrath of God against everyone else. I tell people to Remove the “left behind” paradigm from their thinking and look at it fresh. And this can be a big help for many:
http://watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/Definitions/Def_Pretrib.htm
The “mid-trib” position works much better with the rest of both old and new testament prophesy. I was a pre-tribulationist at first. I mean, I did go to Assembly of God for 18 years. But about two years into it I started asking, out loud, the questions that I had always had concerns about. As I studied the scripture myself, many of those questions were answered, but only with the mid-trib viewpoint. I happened on the article above about two years ago from a thread here.
I think we all have to go through the fire, no matter what label we assign ourselves.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
If we are walking with Christ, it doesn’t make a hill of beans as to when the “rapture” is, or even if there is one.
>>I think the wrath is part of the trib. <<
Well, it’s sort of semantics thing with me. I see it as a “tribulation period” of seven years in which the first half is “satans wrath against the saints” and the second half is “Gods wrath against everyone left after the rapture”.
All that said, it is only an opinion, and I fully expect to be wrong on minor points, and maybe even major ones. I’ll find out either after I die or after it happens, whichever comes first. ;)
One thing that must be dealt with is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Revelation 19:7–9 describes Christians in Heaven engaged in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Immediately after that event is described, Revelation 19:11 reveals the Lord riding out of Heaven with His saints at the end of the Tribulation to destroy His enemies. if Revelation 19:7 describes the Church being in Heaven before the end of the Tribulation, how did it get there? Well, it must have been raptured. Of course, if the Church is on earth throughout the whole Tribulation period, then when was it raptured to allow enough time for the Church to be caught up into Heaven, attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, and then return with Christ at His Second Advent?
The sequencing seems to be very clear. The Second Advent occurs at the end of the Tribulation; the Marriage Supper occurs before that; and then, before the Marriage Supper occurs, the Judgment Seat of Christ occurs so that the Church gets her rewards which she is seen wearing at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
As Revelation 3:10 says, “Because you have kept the word of my perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.” Believers will not only be kept from the testing, but the whole time period of the testing. How? 1 Thessalonians 4 says believers will be “caught up,” “snatched,” or “raptured,” from the earth to meet Christ in the clouds. That is why we “wait for God’s Son from heaven whom He raised from the dead, that is, Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come” (1 Thess. 1:10).
The post trib philosophy is a nasty, toxic, angry series of rants founded on congratulating each other about theological purity and welcoming the painful suffering ahead. I’ve yet to meet a post-tribber that wasn’t a vicious egomaniac, inviting people to share in glorious suffering and death as part of Christian religion. Sound like anyone else you know?
A matter of perspective, perhaps. From where I sit, the most "nasty, toxic, angry series of rants" tend to come from certain of the dispensationist caucus.
Some versions says....”When ye think not.”
But some people can be like a stopped clock....they are right twice a day!
I like “But When the fullnes of time was come, God sent forth his Son,......”(Galatians 4:4a)
He first came right on time, not a minute early, nor a minute late. When He returns, he will return the same. As our heavely Father wills.
“The post trib philosophy is a nasty, toxic, angry series of rants founded on congratulating each other about theological purity and welcoming the painful suffering ahead. I’ve yet to meet a post-tribber that wasn’t a vicious egomaniac, inviting people to share in glorious suffering and death as part of Christian religion. Sound like anyone else you know?”
I’ve known some post-tribbers that fit your description, however, most, like myself, have no great desire of getting killed or persecuted anymore than you do. I am a former pretribber, after much study I discovered what I was doing was reading into the scripture my preconceived theory. I was shocked to find my beloved pretrib rapture wasn’t there.
So, does this make me all these things you described? I don’t think so, I just believe the Bible is right and we should let it correct us, rather than the other way around, i.e., getting the Bible to agree with what we believe.
By the way, it wasn’t just the Bible, the historical record played a big part in my conversion from pretrib to post-trib also. History shows no evidence of pretrib belief until the early 19th century in England. While, on the other hand, unanimous evidence for post-trib from the earliest writings of church history persisting until the rise of pretribism some 1800 years later. My reasoning was simple, how can a doctrine be truth without historical support?
Then you don't agree with my post at all, since I think any removal/rapture would be of the evil/wicked (as in the days of Noah and restated in Matthew), which means the righteous are the ones that remain. :)
That would be correct.
Jesus did not die with us, Jesus died for us...
Jesus died physically...We died (the old man) spiritually...
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Intellectual logic pales in comparison to the words of God...
Intellectual blindness pales in comparison to the real history of God's people. Peace.
What about the millions who were not martyred since then??? When's the last time a pope was martyred???
Open your eyes! Christians of all stripes (Catholics especially) are martyred by the scores every day around the world! You can read about some of it through Voice of the Martyrs and other publications. Christians are suffering significant persecutions all around you. Just because we have it cushy here doesn't mean the Church isn't suffering!
When's the last time a pope was martyred???
It is said that the first 31 popes were martyred. As to the most recent... a Google search says 1303... so?
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