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Catholic word of the Day: AUGUSTINIANISM, 05-17-11
CatholicReference.net ^ | 05-17-11 | Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary

Posted on 05/17/2011 9:08:45 AM PDT by Salvation

Featured Term (selected at random):

AUGUSTINIANISM

The thought of St. Augustine and his followers. In a more technical sense, the theological explanation of St. Augustine, approved by the Church, of man's fall, divine grace, and the freedom of the will in co-operating with the grace of God. Within Augustinianism, there are numerous schools of thought, all part of the Church's theological pluralism.

All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; saints
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Far-reaching influence of St. Augustine.
1 posted on 05/17/2011 9:08:48 AM PDT by Salvation
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To: All
St. Augustine: Against the Fundamental Epistle of Manichaeus Chapter 5 {Ecumenical Thread}
The Scriptural Roots of St. Augustine's Spirituality
Augustine on the Need to Know Hebrew and Greek
Pope Benedict points to St. Augustine as source of unity with Orthodox

St. Augustine's Legacy to the Church
On St. Augustine's Conversion
On the Writings of St. Augustine
On St. Augustine's Search for Truth
St. Augustine's Last Days
On St. Augustine
Pope to Visit Tomb of St. Augustine
Was St. Augustine Catholic? YES!
ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION
Pope: St Monica and St Augustine for youth who go down “wrong roads” and “dead ends”

“A pledge of eternal life”: Augustine on “dew”
You Have to Love A Pope Who Loves St. Augustine
Pope Receives Relics of St. Augustine
St. Augustine, August 28
Two Cities: Augustine’s City of God
Archbishop Sheen Today! -- St. Augustine of Hippo
St. Augustine of Hippo Two Cities: Augustine’s City of God (Chuck Colson on citizenship)
St Augustine Of Hippo
Saint Augustine
Teaching Of St.Augustine of Hippo

2 posted on 05/17/2011 9:11:17 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: JRandomFreeper; Allegra; BlackVeil; Straight Vermonter; Cronos; SumProVita; AnAmericanMother; ...

Catholic Word of the Day – links will be provided later by another FReeper.  (Would anyone like to help with this?)

 

Augustinianism

 

 

 

 

 

Catholic Word of the Day Ping!

If you aren’t on this Catholic Word of the Day Ping list and would like to be, please send me a FReepmail.


3 posted on 05/17/2011 9:12:29 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

One could spend a whole lifetime just learning about St. Augustine. He lived 75 years — must have been quite unusual then.


4 posted on 05/17/2011 9:25:54 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: Salvation; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; fish hawk; Alex Murphy; ...

More disinformation peddled by Rome. Augustinianism was primarily concerned with debunking the Pelagian heresy of the “free will” of man. At the time, Rome didn’t have its head quite so far up the Tiber and they sided with Augustine. Later, the equally demonic Semi-Pelagian heresy took root and brought us the bizarre cult we continue to find in Rome. And, tragically, many of the so-called Protestant groups bought into this same error.


5 posted on 05/17/2011 9:59:43 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Salvation

Here’s to Augustine, and to the best known (former) member of the Augustinian order, and truly a student of the Bishop of Hippo.


6 posted on 05/17/2011 10:54:02 AM PDT by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: Dutchboy88

I will continue to pray for you. Your obsession with the Roman Catholic Church may one day lead you home to this one true Church founded by Christ.


7 posted on 05/17/2011 11:35:46 AM PDT by Bigg Red (Palin in 2012)
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To: Dutchboy88

INDEED.

The DAFFYNITIONARY continues.


8 posted on 05/17/2011 11:54:17 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Bigg Red; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; fish hawk; Alex Murphy; ...
"I will continue to pray for you. Your obsession with the Roman Catholic Church may one day lead you home to this one true Church founded by Christ."

Well, I certainly welcome anyone praying for me. Curious that you perceive correcting the avalanche of propaganda put out by adherants of the Roman cult as an "obsession". What then shall we call their disinformation campaign?

And, I am home in the Body of Christ, the One True Church founded by Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, the Rescuer of the Elect, the First Born among many Brethren. I am just working to help those trapped in Rome's clutches to escape. You, too, would be welcome in Christ, should He permit it. But, thanks.

9 posted on 05/17/2011 11:55:42 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Quix

LOL. Absolutely.


10 posted on 05/17/2011 11:56:56 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

I don’t remember seeing anything about an infallible Pope or bowing to Rome or ancestor worship (Saints) in the Bible.

I thought Jesus came to offer us Salvation for our sins.

Silly me.


11 posted on 05/17/2011 12:13:40 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Happiness)
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To: Dutchboy88
And, I am home in the Body of Christ, the One True Church founded by Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, the Rescuer of the Elect, the First Born among many Brethren. I am just working to help those trapped in Rome's clutches to escape. You, too, would be welcome in Christ, should He permit it. But, thanks.

Amen my brother

Clement Of Rome (A.D. 69): "Let us therefore approach Him in holiness of soul, lifting up pure and undefiled hands unto Him, with love towards our gentle and compassionate Father because He made us an elect portion unto Himself...Seeing then that we are the special elect portion of a Holy God, let us do all things that pertain unto holiness...There was given a declaration of blessedness upon them that have been elected by God through Jesus Christ our Lord...Jesus Christ is the hope of the elect..."

12 posted on 05/17/2011 12:30:51 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; Dutchboy88
While we're on the subject of Pope Clement I of Rome....

The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture in a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."

13 posted on 05/17/2011 12:54:55 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: RnMomof7
"Clement Of Rome (A.D. 69): "Let us therefore approach Him in holiness of soul, lifting up pure and undefiled hands unto Him, with love towards our gentle and compassionate Father because He made us an elect portion unto Himself...Seeing then that we are the special elect portion of a Holy God, let us do all things that pertain unto holiness...There was given a declaration of blessedness upon them that have been elected by God through Jesus Christ our Lord...Jesus Christ is the hope of the elect..."

Amen, my sister. Fantastic words, full of truth and insight into the real Message of the Bible. Thanks.

14 posted on 05/17/2011 1:25:49 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Pyro7480; RnMomof7
"While we're on the subject of Pope Clement I of Rome...."

That he slipped into utter idiocy does not make a certain observation worth noting.

15 posted on 05/17/2011 1:29:22 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Pyro7480
The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture in a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."

Notice no mention of a priesthood..or "mass" because there was none in the NT ... there were to be elders/ bishops and deacons but no priesthood .. The priesthood was fulfilled on the cross.. and in Israel in 70 AD .... no more priesthood..

16 posted on 05/17/2011 1:43:47 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Bigg Red

Nicely done, Red. I’d say more but I need go off and worship some ancestors....


17 posted on 05/17/2011 1:49:02 PM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: Dutchboy88

The early church understood the gospel

Barnabas (A.D. 70): “We are elected to hope, committed by God unto faith, appointed to salvation.”


18 posted on 05/17/2011 1:50:49 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Quix

“That reads as pretty candid, honest, Biblical, to me.
I have no need to throw rocks at her. Rock throwing tends to be a pretty hazardous hobby” ~~Quix quote

Aren’t you mistaken?

The title of the dictionary is Fr. John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary

Please see for yourself http://www.catholicreference.net/


19 posted on 05/17/2011 2:29:00 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Dutchboy88

My description of your obsession is based on my observation that you frequently barge into Catholic threads with your anti-Catholic rants. I was not referring to just your comments on this thread.

I am sure that you truly believe all of your misguided notions about religion, but I pray the Holy Spirit will enter your heart and show you the light.

May God bless and keep you.


20 posted on 05/17/2011 2:43:58 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Palin in 2012)
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To: Hegewisch Dupa

As my dear late mother used to say, he — along with his echo chamber here — is more to be pitied than scorned. May the Holy Spirit change their hearts and show them the Way.


21 posted on 05/17/2011 2:49:12 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Palin in 2012)
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To: Bigg Red
"I am sure that you truly believe all of your misguided notions about religion, but I pray the Holy Spirit will enter your heart and show you the light."

The Holy Spirit has entered my heart and shown me the light of Christ, alone. I have escaped from the "religion of men" and offer to you the same escape, should He grant that to you. And, in fact, it is God who is blessing and keeping me, as compared to a man-made organization wound up in itself, claiming exclusivity yet practiciing doctrines of demons. May God grant you escape from Rome, my FRiend.

22 posted on 05/17/2011 3:06:57 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Salvation

Augustinianism


Links to older "Word of the Day" threads.

23 posted on 05/17/2011 3:33:38 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: Dutchboy88; Salvation; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; fish hawk; ...
Ah, tsk, tsk. The misinformation that comes from Rome. Here is Augustine's own words....

Everyone who believes in "free will" is a Pelagius according to Augustine-condemned by the Church for their heresy. Woe to them. They are anathema. For those who would question predestination, Augustine makes an important point, wasn't the Virgin Birth and Christ predestined from the beginning; one to receive grace and carry the Christ child and the other to redeem men?
24 posted on 05/17/2011 5:16:21 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

Right on target Harley


25 posted on 05/17/2011 5:18:22 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Straight Vermonter

Thanks, I looked it up on what I have saved, but didn’t find it. Looks like this second thread is a hit, though. Gotta visit and copy your page now.


26 posted on 05/17/2011 7:36:39 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: RnMomof7

Of course there is no mention of “Mass” because it wasn’t called that until much later. However, later in the epistle, there is an anaphora or eucharistic prayer.


27 posted on 05/18/2011 7:07:19 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Dutchboy88
That he slipped into utter idiocy

WHAT are you talking about and where are you getting that from?

28 posted on 05/18/2011 7:08:16 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Dutchboy88
And, in fact, it is God who is blessing and keeping me, as compared to a man-made organization wound up in itself, claiming exclusivity yet practiciing doctrines of demons.

"Woe to you that call evil good, and good evil: that put darkness for light, and light for darkness: that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5: 20).

29 posted on 05/18/2011 7:20:59 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: HarleyD
"Ah, tsk, tsk. The misinformation that comes from Rome. Here is Augustine's own words...."

Excellent post, Harley.

30 posted on 05/18/2011 8:23:07 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Pyro7480
"Woe to you that call evil good, and good evil: that put darkness for light, and light for darkness: that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5: 20)."

May we assume that Rome is now acknowledging Scripture as the highest authority of doctrine? Let the housekeeping begin!

31 posted on 05/18/2011 8:25:45 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

I don’t speak for “Rome” any more than any other Catholic FReeper does.


32 posted on 05/18/2011 9:00:13 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480
"I don’t speak for “Rome” any more than any other Catholic FReeper does."

Then may we assume that for you to quote Isaiah to me was YOPIOS? You can't have it both ways, my FRiend.

33 posted on 05/18/2011 9:14:18 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

LOL! It was a valid use of Scripture to warn against such upside-down rants against Christ’s Mystical Body, the Church.


34 posted on 05/18/2011 10:07:35 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480
"It was a valid use of Scripture to warn against such upside-down rants against Christ’s Mystical Body, the Church."

But, I was not addressing the Church, only the Roman Catholic cult. And, either you are speaking for the Roman view on Isaiah or you are using YOPIOS. You are not in a position to determine a "valid use of Scripture". Recall, that is not your domain; only headquarters determines the true meaning of Scripture. Just checking to see which it is.

35 posted on 05/18/2011 11:10:04 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
But, I was not addressing the Church, only the Roman Catholic cult. And, either you are speaking for the Roman view on Isaiah or you are using YOPIOS. You are not in a position to determine a "valid use of Scripture". Recall, that is not your domain; only headquarters determines the true meaning of Scripture. Just checking to see which it is.


36 posted on 05/18/2011 11:24:18 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: HarleyD

“”Everyone who believes in “free will” is a Pelagius according to Augustine””

Perhaps you did not realize that Blessed Augustine wrote retractions of some things he wrote earlier in his life

Here is some writings from Blessed Augustine
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1513.htm

“It is to be confessed, therefore, that we have free choice to do both evil and good”

“Thus also He made man with free will; and although ignorant of his future fall, yet therefore happy, because he thought it was in his own power both not to die and not to become miserable. And if he had willed by his own free will to continue in this state of uprightness and freedom from sin, assuredly without any experience of death and of unhappiness he would have received by the merit of that continuance the fullness of blessing with which the holy angels also are blessed; that is, the impossibility of falling any more, and the knowledge of this with absolute certainty “


37 posted on 05/18/2011 5:10:18 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
Perhaps you did not realize that Blessed Augustine wrote retractions of some things he wrote earlier in his life...Thus also He made man with free will;

On the contrary, I'm well aware that Augustine wrote a retraction of some of the things he wrote earlier. In fact, not only did he write a retraction, he actually recalled some of his writings and destroyed them. Now that's faithfulness.

However, you overlook one item. The Treastise on the Predestination of the Saints was written as one of the last works of Augustine. So your timeline is skewed. Augustine believed in the "free will" of men early in his Christian faith. It was only later in his Christian faith did he abandoned the heresy. Please consider this writing from Augustine in which he discusses this:

I would also point out that Cyprian, a leader and pillar of the church, lead Augustine to this conclusion with his question, "What do you have that you have not received from God?" So this wasn't a minority view in the Church. Today the Church has abandoned the faith.
38 posted on 05/18/2011 5:27:58 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

Harley- “”He could have rejected; concerning whom, on this account, the prophetic testimony is recorded, although declared long subsequently, “Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated,”’ [Mal. 1.2,3. Cf. Rom. 9.13.] I carried out my reasoning to the point of saying: ‘God did not therefore choose the works of any one in foreknowledge of what He Himself would give them, but he chose the faith, in the foreknowledge “”

Actually this is where Augustine still was wrong because he states that God could be moved by choice of faith in his foreknowledge.

If God knows everything in one Now there is no choice other than good in his foreknowledge since He already knows.

Foreknowledge to God does not mean thinking and than creating in succession,it means knowing all at once,thus knowledge of evil is not a created predestined evil or God would be moved from good to evil having both evil and good in His essence. This is a Zeus God,not Christ

Blessed Augustine did not consider that God is not moved to choose anything other than His essence -which is love or He would be moved.

Saint Thomas Aquinas rightfully points out

AS love is to good, so is hatred to evil; we wish good to them whom we love, and evil to them whom we hate. If then the will of God cannot be inclined to evil, as has been shown , it is impossible for Him to hate anything.

2. The will of God tends to things other than Himself inasmuch as, by willing and loving His own being and goodness, He wishes it to be diffused as far as is possible by communication of His likeness. This then is what God wills in beings other than Himself, that there be in them the likeness of His goodness. Therefore God wills the good of everything, and hates nothing.

4. What is found naturally in all active causes, must be found especially in the Prime Agent. But all agents in their own way love the effects which they themselves produce, as parents their children, poets their own poems, craftsmen their works. Much more therefore is God removed from hating anything, seeing that He is cause of all.*

Hence it is said: Thou lovest all things that are, and hatest nothing of the things that Thou hast made (Wisd. xi, 25).

Some things however God is said, to hate figuratively (similitudinarie), and that in two ways. The first way is this, that God, in loving things and willing their good to be, wills their evil not to be: hence He is said to have hatred of evils, for the things we wish not to be we are said to hate. So it is said: Think no evil in your hearts every one of you against his friend, and love no lying oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord (Zach. viii, 17). But none of these things are effects of creation: they are not as subsistent things, to which hatred or love properly attaches. The other way is by God’s wishing some greater good, which cannot be without the privation of a lesser good; and thus He is said to hate, whereas it is more properly love. Thus inasmuch as He wills the good of justice, or of the order of the universe, which cannot be without the punishment or perishing of some, He is said to hate those beings whose punishment or perishing He wills, according to the text, Esau I have hated (Malach. i, 3); and, Thou hatest all who work Iniquity, thou wilt destroy all who utter falsehood: the man of blood and deceit the Lord shall abominate (Ps. v, 7).*


39 posted on 05/18/2011 9:03:06 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
Actually this is where Augustine still was wrong because he states that God could be moved by choice of faith in his foreknowledge. If God knows everything in one Now there is no choice other than good in his foreknowledge since He already knows.

That is unless man's choice is ALWAYS against God. If that is the case, as scriptures teaches, then man and God is at enmity with one another. Man will never do the things of God. God is good and wishes to reconcile this relationship no matter how poorly treated He is by man. And since God is so good and so perfect, He cannot look upon imperfection.

Everything you see around you, all the millions of Christians who have been saved throughout the ages, are simply God calling a people out for Himself by His grace. Man, who strives with God, will NOT come to Him unless God calls Him. So in one aspect you're correct, EVERYTHING that is done is done by God for good-to achieve His end purpose of calling His people.

But you're assuming that God would not be good unless He called EVERYONE equally. I believe that is a wrong assumption. If that were the case everyone on the Damascus Road would have seen and heard the same thing Paul saw. God choose who He wants to reveal Himself to.

Foreknowledge to God does not mean thinking and than creating in succession,it means knowing all at once,thus knowledge of evil is not a created predestined evil or God would be moved from good to evil having both evil and good in His essence. This is a Zeus God,not Christ

And this statement proves my point. You believe that if something REALLY bad happens then it certainly can't be God because God is "good". Yet the scriptures tells us that ALL things work together for good with those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.

Thus if something really bad happens to us you may chalk it up to fate, bad luck, ying-yang, or something else. Scripture on the other hand teaches that all things are meant to benefit us, including the bad things.

Consider the following in Amos:

It is very clear, the Lord states it many times, that it is He that bring on calamity. And He states the reason He brings it on is to have the people return to Him. So punishment comes to us not because God is evil but because we are evil. By the way, even after we're Christians calamity may befall us simply to bring us closer to God. It is one of the few ways that God can get our attention.

Blessed Augustine did not consider.....Saint Thomas Aquinas rightfully points out

This article isn't about Aquinas. It is about Augustine. And it makes an untrue claim that Augustine believed in free will. He may have in his earlier days but as he grew in his faith he understood this to be heretical doctrine-so much that he destroy many of his life's works. And he learned this to be a heretical doctrine from Cyprian, one of the great pillars of the early church. As Augustine correctly points out, we are saved NOT because we believe in God. Rather, as the scriptures and Augustine teaches, we are saved to believe in God and foster good works. If Aquinas believed otherwise, then he was simply a heretic and Augustine would have told him so.

40 posted on 05/19/2011 5:54:46 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

Dear brother , wrap your mind around the fact that God is unchanging and immovable and God is love according to Scriptures along with being the first cause- which has to always be love because that is His essence

Anything that differs from love can NOT be from God or God would be moved and changed

Every one of us was willed Love by God from eternity,it is man who freely wills against that “first cause” love ,not God- who does not change.

The fullness of Scripture revealed through Christ bears out God of love, and many things in the Old Testament are “anti types” of what God is NOT that was revealed in Christ that points to unchanging love-Which IS the essence of God

That God is His own Essence*- Saint Thomas Aquinas
http://www2.nd.edu/Departments//Maritain/etext/gc1_21.htm

IN everything that is not its own essence, quiddity, or nature, there must be some composition. For since in everything its own essence is contained, — if in anything there were contained nothing but its essence, the whole of that thing would be its essence, and so itself would be its own essence. If then anything is not its own essence, there must be something in that thing besides its essence, and so there must be in it composition. Hence also the essence in compound things is spoken of as a part, as humanity in man. But it has been shown that in God there is no composition. God therefore is His own essence.

2. That alone is reckoned to be beyond the essence of a thing, which does not enter into its definition: for the definition declares what the thing essentially is. But the accidents of a thing are the only points about it which fall not within the definition: therefore the accidents are the only points about a thing besides its essence. But in God there are no accidents, as will be shown (Chap. XXIII): therefore there is nothing in Him besides His essence.

3. The forms that are not predicable of subsistent things, whether in the universal or in the singular, are forms that do not of themselves subsist singly, individualised in themselves. It is not said that Socrates or man or animal is whiteness; because whiteness is not anything subsisting singly in itself, but is individualised by the substance in which it exists. Also the essences or quiddities of genera or species are individualised according to the definite matter of this or that individual, although the generic or specific quiddity includes form and matter in general: hence it is not said that Socrates or man is humanity. But the Divine Essence is something existing singly by itself, and individualised in itself, as will be shown (Chap. XLII). The Divine Essence therefore is predicated of God in such a way that it can be said: ‘God is His own essence


41 posted on 05/20/2011 8:05:00 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
Dear brother , wrap your mind around the fact that God is unchanging and immovable and God is love according to Scriptures

I believe I've stated that God is love. The issue is that we do not love the things of God nor do we want to do them. Our very nature rebels against God. As we see in Amos, God can throw blessings and curses at men; yet men will rebel against God no matter what is given. If Adam, being perfect man will rebel against God's command, do we honestly think we are any better? Adam chose to rebel so God gave Adam's race exactly what Adam wanted to do. It's not much different than the people of Israel wanting meat instead the bread of angels and God sending so much quail that it came out their nossils.

God's will is bent on restoring to Himself a people. Man's will is bent on resisting that restoration. The only way God can restore man is by giving man a new heart and a new spirit-one that will follow after Him. Thus man MUST be predestined since it is God who gives us that new heart and spirit all the while we are in a rebellious state. It's no different than St. Paul on the Damascus Road; God unblinding our eyes and opening our ears to see and hear the spiritual truth. It is difficult to argue that Paul wasn't predestined of God when Paul himself states it in Galatines:

Augustine mirrors only what Paul is stating; that God sets us apart, reveals Himself to us at the appropriate time, so that we might bear fruit for God's plan. And this is the love of God that He would even consider doing this for people who revile and hate Him. Day in, day out. Year after year, century after century. When really what we RIGHTFULLY DESERVE is death and destruction.

Some may think it may be unjust for God to open up some hearts and not others, but that is His perogative. It doesn't make Him less loving. What it makes Him is merciful and gracious to those who He saves for we all deserve the same wages of death and eternal fiery torment. And less we think highly of ourselves, we are reminded by scripture (and Augustine) that the ONLY reason we are saved is so we will believe and bear fruit for God's plan.

42 posted on 05/20/2011 7:14:27 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

HD=””Thus man MUST be predestined since it is God who gives us that new heart and spirit all the while we are in a rebellious state. It’s no different than St. Paul on the Damascus Road; God unblinding our eyes and opening our ears to see and hear the spiritual truth. It is difficult to argue that Paul wasn’t predestined of God when Paul himself states it in Galatines:””

Dear friend,

I find it strange that protestant belief is that God willed the saved to sin until some point where they seem to proclaim they are saved,yet are allowed and willed to sin afterward and still be saved

How do you reconcile that an unmovable God allows sin as part of His will with some and not others and not be moved from His essence ,which is love?

Do you actually believe that God predestined and willed Saint Paul to kill Christians?


43 posted on 05/22/2011 5:20:44 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
I find it strange that protestant belief is that God willed the saved to sin until some point where they seem to proclaim they are saved,yet are allowed and willed to sin afterward and still be saved

I'm not sure why you find this so strange. Isn't that what John states?

Please note that John uses "we", including himself. Yet he fully realized that he was saved.

How do you reconcile that an unmovable God allows sin as part of His will with some and not others and not be moved from His essence ,which is love?

I'm not sure I understand your question. God allows sin for all of us-Christian or not. This does not move God from His essence which is love. It only allows us to recognized how evil we are.

Christians seem to have lost this concept-that we are evil. Only God is good. We would like to think that we are "good" since we are made in God's image. But this is Renaissance thinking and in error. The scriptures tells we are evil:

There you have it. Our Lord Jesus said only God is good (himself being God). Everyone else He tells us are evil. We need to pay attention to this for it helps us to understand our relationship with God and the Christ.

Do you actually believe that God predestined and willed Saint Paul to kill Christians?

Christians think too much in the here and now. They fail to think in terms of eternity. If a Christian is killed so what? They don't cease to exist. They move to a better life. So if God's will that Paul kill Christians so what? Those Christians have been martyred and now move into eternity richer for their reward.

Whatever our end, God works all things to our good. Nothing can hurt us that God doesn't have something better in store for us. And our end is predetermined to give us the rewards God would like to give us.

44 posted on 05/22/2011 6:39:30 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: stfassisi
I find it strange that protestant belief is that God willed the saved to sin until some point where they seem to proclaim they are saved,yet are allowed and willed to sin afterward and still be saved

I'm not sure why you find this so strange. Isn't that what John states?

Please note that John uses "we", including himself. Yet he fully realized that he was saved.

How do you reconcile that an unmovable God allows sin as part of His will with some and not others and not be moved from His essence ,which is love?

I'm not sure I understand your question. God allows sin for all of us-Christian or not. This does not move God from His essence which is love. It only allows us to recognized how evil we are.

Christians seem to have lost this concept-that we are evil. Only God is good. We would like to think that we are "good" since we are made in God's image. But this is Renaissance thinking and in error. The scriptures tells we are evil:

There you have it. Our Lord Jesus said only God is good (himself being God). Everyone else He tells us are evil. We need to pay attention to this for it helps us to understand our relationship with God and the Christ.

Do you actually believe that God predestined and willed Saint Paul to kill Christians?

Christians think too much in the here and now. They fail to think in terms of eternity. If a Christian is killed so what? They don't cease to exist. They move to a better life. So if God's will that Paul kill Christians so what? Those Christians have been martyred and now move into eternity richer for their reward.

Whatever our end, God works all things to our good. Nothing can hurt us that God doesn't have something better in store for us. And our end is predetermined to give us the rewards God would like to give us.

45 posted on 05/22/2011 6:39:53 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

OOPS-sorry for the double post. There was a computer glitch. It obviously was predestined to make my point. ;O)


46 posted on 05/22/2011 6:41:16 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
God allows sin for all of us-Christian or not. This does not move God from His essence which is love.

Than you agree with Catholic/Orthodox belief- that God does not WILL ANY sin to happen or He would be moved by Willing something other than love? I would find it very strange if you somehow believe that sin is a form of love willed by God

If a Christian is killed so what?

Be careful,hd. There are people who justify euthanasia and abortion by this kind of thinking

47 posted on 05/23/2011 11:30:21 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
Than you agree with Catholic/Orthodox belief- that God does not WILL ANY sin to happen or He would be moved by Willing something other than love?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "will any sin to happen". God creates the circumstance and the conditions. And He knows that we will sin. But sin itself is the result of us when we are tempted by our lusts.

A prime example is Adam in the Garden. The tree was planted, Adam was instructed, God was there and did nothing to prevent Adam from reaching out and taking the fruit when offered. God certainly wasn't the author of sin. But He certain created the conditions and He knew what would happen.

Why the fall of Adam is considered a mystery I can't explain. If Adam had not fallen we would not know our own failings nor understand how dependent we must be on God.

Be careful,hd. There are people who justify euthanasia and abortion by this kind of thinking

One cannot justify sinful behavior with the excuse of God's timing. When David murdered Uriah, it certainly was Uriah's time to die but it was the result of David's sin. When Naaman was killed by Jezebel for his vineyard, God allow it but at a price that Jezebel and Ahab would pay several years later. It's no better than Adam's response in the Garden that the woman YOU gave me cause me to do this. That doesn't fly. While God controls the events, our sins are our own lusts to show us our failings. When believers sin like David, there is a price to be paid. In his case he spent the rest of his life with a troubled family. When unbelievers mock God or kill His saints, in due time their foot will slip.

People can try and do justify all sorts of sinful actions. Sin is still sin and it will have consequences.

48 posted on 05/23/2011 5:57:51 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
God creates the circumstance and the conditions.

Sin is always a free decision un-created by God,it is man and satan who creates circumstances and conditions for man to sin-God creates circumstances and conditions for man NOT to sin or God is moved to create a sinful condition from a loving condition not to sin

Why the fall of Adam is considered a mystery I can't explain?

Stop denying free will that allowed lucifer to have pride and you can explain it very easily,dear brother

People can try and do justify all sorts of sinful actions. Sin is still sin and it will have consequences. We agree on this!

How is that gifted son of yours doing these days?

You must be getting closer to college decision soon

I have busy work week and can not respond for awhile

I wish you a blessed week!

49 posted on 05/23/2011 6:22:38 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
Sin is always a free decision un-created by God

St. Augustine would disagree.

You see, sin isn't about murdering, or lying, or stealing. Sin is a lack of faith. We are given a definition of sin. Whatever is not of faith is sin, as the scriptures and Augustine so rightfully points out.

Therefore sin cannot be a "free decision" since it is a lack of something (faith). And unless God gives a person this something (faith), they cannot break this bondage of having no sin.

Stop denying free will that allowed lucifer to have pride and you can explain it very easily,dear brother

Not a great deal is written about the reason satan fell. I'm not sure I would subscribe it to pride. But it certainly wasn't because he had "free will". Otherwise any angel at any time could become corrupt, and we know that the number of angels in heaven is set.

How is that gifted son of yours doing these days? You must be getting closer to college decision soon

Yes, he has selected his college and been accepted, ready to go off into the college life all the while spending his father's money. :O)

This transition is by far the most difficult of raising kids.

50 posted on 05/24/2011 2:11:58 AM PDT by HarleyD
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