Posted on 08/10/2011 8:11:57 AM PDT by janereinheimer
Long post with many errors, so I’ll reply to it later using samples. For now...
Does Jesus baptize with the Spirit, or water? Is it the baptism in the Spirit that makes us Christians, or water? Faith, or magic?
OK, to start with #1:
John 1:32 - was Jesus already God, or was he ‘made’? Do you suggest Jesus ‘needed’ the Holy Spirit to start indwelling Him?
John 3:3,5 - Actually reads:
“3Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
Now, was Jesus talking about baptism, or was he talking about two births, physical and spiritual?
“I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit...
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
Ever hear of ‘breaking water’?
John 3:22 - Did Jesus baptize anyone in water? (Hint: John 4:2) Why not?
John 4:1 - What did baptism mean to a Jew then? Why would a Jew - one of God’s Chosen People - be baptized? For regeneration? Or to show repentance and commitment?
Remember: “12For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”
More tomorrow...
It is food for thought. When we think we got it all down some christians can have another view.
13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Ever hear of ‘breaking water’?
That can be one view. The other view would be thinking in the flesh like man but be born in the spirit to know spiritual matters which supercedes the fleshly born only thinking. There is a lot of meaning in scriptures. All I am pointing out there can be other views.
“When we think we got it all down some christians can have another view.”
That is very true. We are saved by responding to God in faith and trying to obey Him, not by scoring well on a theology test. I have very strong differences with Catholic theology, but that doesn’t mean all Catholics are damned. The thief on the cross knew almost no theology, but he met Jesus and believed. Even Abraham knew very little theology, but he met God and believed Him: “For what does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.’”
That doesn’t make, however, bad theology good. I am a Baptist and believe in water baptism. I also don’t care a lot about WHEN someone is baptized, because I don’t think God follows a checklist. God is a person, not a computer.
My objection is to the idea that water baptism apart from faith removes sin and causes one to be born again. For someone who doesn’t believe - and I’ve met a number of folks who have been baptized without believing, including adults baptized by Baptists but who were dishonest about their ‘belief’ - and no rite with water can make you a new creation in Christ apart from the command of Christ to repent and believe God.
One can debate individual verses about baptism, but one would have to reject all of scripture to claim that we are saved by a rite and not by responding to God in faith.
Circumcision was a rite prescribed by God, as is water baptism, but circumcision did not make a Jew a follower of God: “28For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.” - Romans 2
Paul was addressing the Jews and their confidence in their place as God’s Chosen People, but I think it could be equally applied to those who place their trust in church membership, or water baptism: For no one is a Christian who is merely one outwardly, nor is baptism outward and physical. But a Christian is one inwardly, and baptism is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. Let our praise come not from man, but from God.
Not really correcting you just showing the catholic view. You stated why you do not believe in confessing to another in your original statement. Just showing what’s in scripture.
1. the versions cited still say be baptized for the remission of sins. forcing another reading based on what the Greek might be able to be read as, is trying to make the Bible fit preconceived notions, the opposite of what s/b done.
2. paul did not receive the Holy Spirit from laying on hands, read Acts 22.
3. “receive baptism as an expressive act of washing away your sins” the Bible does not use the word “expressive” at all in Acts, this is Baptist goggles seeing a word not there. Paul was told to be baptized to wash away his sins, nothing “expressive” about it.
4. the Philippian jailer being told believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...why? because anyone who truly believes in Jesus will be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit.
5. “it isn’t the Church who is filled with the Spirit, but believers” someone who truly understood what the Church is, couldn’t make such a statement..hint, it’s not a building.
again, the problem is the “two baptism” people start with a false teaching unknown to the Apostles, unknown to the Church Fathers, and unknown to anyone until the 16th century. then, they read every verse to try and fit this heresy. they can’t explain why Jesus commanded baptism, they can’t explain what baptism is for and they can’t explain why we can’t find anyone holding this belief before the 16th century.
it isn’t a matter of 400 v. 1 , it’s a matter of 401 v zero. all Scripture is true and one must harmonize all Scripture, we can’t dismiss one verse as an outlier.
everyone accepts the Scripture is true, my question to you is:
Are you infallible when you interpret the Scripture to teach that baptism is not for the forgiveness of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit?
that is a “yes” or “no” question.
be careful who you think is bringing truth. mr rogers may believe there is only “ONE” Gospel and not two!!
trouble is, it’s NOT in scripture. That was my point to start with. You posted a scripture that had been added to. There is another scripture that tells us not to add or take anything away from the Word Of God. You did that in your statement. Isn’t that a sin?
John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, even so i send you. And when he said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”
Yes, Christ gave authority to his disciples but scripture says nothing about that being passed down to their "successors". If it does and I missed it, please give me that scripture.
“it isn’t a matter of 400 v. 1”
Yes, it is. There is no verse saying baptism in water is required for forgiveness of sins and eternal life. There is one verse that COULD be interpreted that way, but it does not have to be.
And there are HUNDREDS of verses saying we are saved by grace thru faith...
11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1
32And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ - John 1
22When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken. - John 2
3Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” - John 3
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. - John 3
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3
23But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” - John 4
41And many more believed because of his word. 42They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.” - John 4
24Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. - John 5
28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” - John 6
Of course, I could go on and on. There is no way to reconcile these verses with the idea that a sprinkling of water makes us live. We respond to God in faith, and live. Or not, and die. Water does not save you from sin and death. The only baptism that does that is the baptism of Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit:
13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. - 1 Cor 12
“Are you infallible when you interpret the Scripture to teach that baptism is not for the forgiveness of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit?”
Is your Pope infallible in what he proclaims? Yes - IF what he proclaims is in line with the Word of God. And NO - if he differs from the word of God.
Are we given new life by baptism in water? Or by faith? If you say baptism, you are wrong. This is the explicit and inescapable teaching of God: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.” - Galatians 3
“1. the versions cited still say be baptized for the remission of sins.”
And that can mean baptized TO be forgiven, or baptized BECAUSE you have been forgiven, and the Greek makes that even clearer.
“2. paul did not receive the Holy Spirit from laying on hands, read Acts 22.”
In Acts we read: “17So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. “
Regaining sight and being filled is linked in verse 17. In verse 18, he immediately regained his sight. Only then was he baptized - rather like the baptism of the Holy Spirit preceding the water baptism of Cornelius in the next chapter.
Acts 22 says, “16And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
If you consider that sequential, then you have someone baptized BEFORE they call on the name of Jesus. But of course, Paul was being told to do ALL of those things at once. But we also know, from Acts 9, that the scales had already fallen from his eyes PRIOR to his being baptized.
“3. “receive baptism as an expressive act of washing away your sins” the Bible does not use the word “expressive” at all in Acts”
In Acts, it is obvious that we must be baptized in the Holy Spirit - the baptism Jesus gives. In 1 Cor 12, it is obvious we are baptized in the Spirit, drinking of one Spirit, into the one body.
“4. the Philippian jailer being told believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...why? because anyone who truly believes in Jesus will be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit.”
You mean like the thief on the cross was? Even the Catholic Church allows intent to follow Christ as sufficient. If Catholics TRULY believed in baptismal regeneration, they would baptize all converts IMMEDIATELY. Indeed, they would baptize adults BEFORE belief, so they person could be born again and understand the things of God.
But if water baptism was required for the forgiveness of sins, no one would be forced to wait weeks and months, lest a car crash condemn them to hell forever!
What is critical is believing - try reading John 3: “18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
Yes, one who believes would then, given the chance, follow with baptism, prayer, giving to the poor, etc - lots of good things will follow. And being a Baptist, I believe in baptizing right away rather than waiting. But Jesus is explicit - it is by receiving him and believing in his name (”12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”) that we are born again. As John puts it later: “...these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
By believing you may have life in his name, not by being baptized in his name you will receive life.
“again, the problem is the “two baptism” people start with a false teaching unknown to the Apostles, unknown to the Church Fathers, and unknown to anyone until the 16th century. then, they read every verse to try and fit this heresy. “
Hate to break it to you, but the word of God explicitly teaches two baptisms - water, and Spirit. This is not open to discussion: “11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
Water baptism is undoubtedly taught, but so is the baptism of the Spirit, and they do not occur at the same time - ask Peter if you doubt me: “Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.”
It is sin to hold the teachings of ‘church fathers’ - and I’ve read enough of them to know how wacky many were - above the God-breathed scripture.
you are correct sir, i did not see the successors part.
i will add, we don’t accept “sola scriptura”, and the Apostolic Tradition has always taught apostolic succession.
by your reasoning, Matthew 28 could have been just for the Apostles, yet every church today teaches and baptizes.
hate to break this to you - the baptism of John is not Christian baptism, so to say that is water and what Paul taught is Spirit baptism is wrong, wrong, wrong. read Acts 19 and you will see John’s baptism is not Christian baptism.
there are not TWO baptisms, as Paul tells us in Ephesians 4.
Paul did not have the Holy Spirit before he was blinded, so having the scales fall from his eyes is not evidence he received the Holy Spirit. Acts 22:16 tells us when he washed away his sins and therefore received the Holy Spirit.
my mother always told me not to answer a question with a question, didn’t yours tell you the same?
either your understanding is infallible or it isn’t, why can’t you answer yes or no.
i suspect you are not infallible and therefore i will stick with what the Holy Spirit has led Christians to believe and teach for 2,000 years.
we seem to have gone in circles several times, so i will leave this thread and pray the Holy Spirit enlighten you to the truth.
Acts 9 says: ““Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Verse 17
Notice: “you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Ananias expected regaining sight and the filling of the Holy Spirit to be linked.
The next words are: “And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight...”
Only THEN does it say, “...and he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened.”
It is true that is does not expressly say that Paul’s filling occurred when his sight was regained, but that would be the normal expectation from what Ananias said. If not then, then you could as easily link it to eating “he took food and was strengthened” as to baptism.
However, there is absolutely no doubt but that there is a baptism of the Spirit, and that the baptism of Jesus is in the Holy Spirit. All 4 gospels and Acts say that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.
There is also no doubt that the baptism of the Holy Spirit qualifies one for water baptism: “Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” and shortly later, “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”
Please notice what Peter said:
“And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”
When were they baptized in the Holy Spirit, per the prediction of Jesus? “...after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ”.
You can claim there is only one baptism, but if so, then the baptism that counts - the baptism of Jesus, by the mouth of Jesus Christ himself - is the baptism in the Spirit.
If you wish to argue, be prepared to argue with Jesus Christ on that Great Day. Jesus Christ and Peter have already told you the truth: “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’”
You don’t have to like it. You can ignore it.In this life. Only you & God know if you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit or not. It is not automatic with water baptism. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit...The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
“But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.”
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