Posted on 11/14/2011 8:55:41 AM PST by Alex Murphy
Chapel Hill Presbyterian Church in Gig Harbor voted Sunday to leave the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), primarily because the denomination changed its constitution to allow noncelibate gay men and lesbians to be ordained as clergy and lay leaders.
With 1,660 members, Chapel Hill Presbyterian is one of the largest mainline Protestant churches in the South Sound region.
The Rev. Mark Toone, senior pastor of Chapel Hill, said his congregation reached a “tipping point” last spring when a majority of regional governing bodies, called presbyteries, voted to change the church’s ordination standards, permitting openly gay people to be ordained.
“For 30 years, we have battled over the same theological turf,” Toone told about 1,200 parishioners before Sunday’s vote. While it’s painful to leave the denomination, Toone said, “it would be more painful to remain.”
Sumner Presbyterian Church also voted Sunday to depart. Two other South Sound Presbyterian congregations, First Presbyterian of Tacoma and Evergreen Presbyterian in Graham, also decided recently to leave the denomination.
Chapel Hill members voted by written ballot whether to leave and join the smaller Evangelical Presbyterian Church. About 92 percent of the members who cast ballots voted to do so.
After dropping their ballots into purple bins following a congregational meeting, several members said they voted to leave in response to the ordination of gays and lesbians and other issues of disagreement.
“The church is being influenced by culture,” said Deanna Nilsen. “There has to come a point when we stand on the word of God.”
“It’s a mixed feeling,” said Tiersa Chaffin. “It’s bittersweet. It’s hard to separate.”
Chapel Hill prepared for the vote for seven months, studying issues and working with its regional body, the Presbytery of Olympia.
“It’s been a long process,” said Margie Doerksen. “It’s sort of a relief … to take this first step.”
Doerksen said Chapel Hill welcomes gay men and lesbians into the congregation.
“We choose not to have them in leadership because we feel that’s scripturally correct,” Doerksen said.
At 134-year-old Sumner Presbyterian, 90 percent of the members present Sunday voted to leave their denomination and join The Evangelical Covenant Church.
A “yes” vote equaling 75 percent of members present was required to proceed with leaving.
“It’s a big step to take,” said the Rev. Steve Starr, pastor of 365-member Sumner Presbyterian. In the decision to leave, he said, “I think there’s a lot of unity.”
The congregations’ advisory votes to leave are not final.
The Presbytery of Olympia is expected to vote Thursday to set up commissions that would negotiate with congregations on terms of withdrawal. Those agreements in part would address how much a congregation would pay to assume control of its land and buildings. Properties currently are held in trust by the presbytery on behalf of the denomination.
The congregations would then take another advisory vote on whether to accept the terms of withdrawal. A final vote by the presbytery could take place as early as January.
“It’s sad to see them go, but we’ll respect their process and their decisions,” said the Rev. Lynn Longfield, general presbyter of the Presbytery of Olympia.
She said four other congregations are in the process of discerning whether they want to leave the denomination.
Last spring, a nationwide vote gave presbyteries the option to ordain gay men and lesbians as clergy by removing the ordination requirement of “fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman or chastity in singleness.”
The Presbytery of Olympia voted against the change and has not ordained gays. Congregations can now choose whether to ordain openly gay people for positions as lay leaders, called elders and deacons.
The Presbytery of Olympia includes all of Pierce and Thurston counties and extends to Woodland, north of Vancouver. It has 9,600 members in 49 congregations.
The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), which has about 2.3 million members, joined three other denominations that permit the ordination of gays: the Episcopal Church, the United Church of Christ and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
And, nowhere in the Scriptures is Paul called “St.” Paul. Every believer in Christ is a saint. Your gang has attempted to elevate them beyond the positions even they claimed. Tragic, but expected.
Your beef seems to be with all organized religion and you posit that the early Church was not organized and did not have those in positions of authority. As we see from Acts and the Epistles, that is not the case.
There is always some authority in this area, even if it is one’s own authority, The Church of Me. The option here is not whether there is authority but where it rests.
Some, perhaps you, think it rightfully rests with each individual to determine what is the true Christian Faith from their authority and/or their authority over what Holy Scripture means (and even what is to be included in the canon of Holy Scripture.)
As we see in his exhortations in his epistles to those independent-minded congregations and individuals, this is not the view of St. Paul.
“We choose not to have them in leadership because we feel that’s scripturally correct,” Doerksen said.
That statement needs a whole load of clarification to be meaningful. What does "gay" mean to them? Openly, unrepentant, practicing homosexuals? If so, they are no better than the PCUSA as it now stands.
Barring openly homosexual men from leadership positions means nothing if they tolerate it anywhere in their ranks.
Not only that, but according to modern Catholicism, there is virtually no one on earth who attains “sainthood” anymore. It is purely a state that is reached after death and purgatory.
Do you have a scripture that says women can not be priest?
good, the death of these Calvinist pervert groups
1 Cor. 14:34,35 for starters
Oh sure ding the Calvinists. There is just as much perversity in the Catholic Church, every other mainline denominations, and pseudo Christian churches as well (LDS anyone?). I’ll let you in on a secret, no one is immune to sin, we are steeped in it. It is only through the blood of Christ that we can overcome it.
There is always some authority in this area, even if it is one’s own authority, The Church of Me. The option here is not whether there is authority but where it rests.
Some, perhaps you, think it rightfully rests with each individual to determine what is the true Christian Faith from their authority and/or their authority over what Holy Scripture means (and even what is to be included in the canon of Holy Scripture.)
As we see in his exhortations in his epistles to those independent-minded congregations and individuals, this is not the view of St. Paul."
There is so much error here, it is too much to handle all in one post. However, I will take a bit at a time.
First, I was unaware that you had the gift of mind-reading, or that it was to be exercised here. I have no beef with anyone or anything. I simply wish to point out error when I come across it.
Second, error is replete in organizations which attempt to hijack Christ's assembly and name it for themselves. This goes for all of the "organizations", but is perhaps most obvious in the big Roman debacle and the large, liberal Protestant kluges. Does error ever occur in independent groups? Of course. Men are broken and tend toward error. But, the Scriptures tell all men to examine the text, compare it to what is being taught, and avoid that which does not comport.
Third, you have confused the rejection of error with a rejection of authority. Every believer is called to submit to those gifted to lead their local gathering. Small, independent congregations can, and do, however, sift out the error quicker than large bodies saddled with massive inertia. Witness this gigantus "ordaining" homosexuals. Small gatherings would (if they were biblically based) simply ask the nut-ball that suggested this to leave (I Cor.).
Fourth, the authority rests with the Scriptures, not with any one man. We are all charged with understanding what that text says. And, everyone has to interpret what they are confronted wtih. So, don't pull the "Church of Me" routine...everyone does this whether they realize it or not. If a man tells you, "Mary is a co-redemptrix with Jesus." you are compelled to ask yourself, "Self, what does this man mean?" You are interpreting the words of your so-called "authority". You must take in the input and decide what it means. The question is...what is that authority? That is the nature of living.
Fifth, don't give us the "we gave you Scripture" routine, either. The Scriptures were identified by thousands of believers long before there was a coup by Rome, a hijacking by some bathrobed, power-hungry, self-appointed, self-aggrandizing blowhards in Rome. If you cannot see this, you have been smoking too much Roman rope.
Sixth, the unity of the body of believers around the world is found in Christ, managed by His Spirit, not some goofy clan from the Vatican. We never needed a central human authority, it is not described anywhere in Scripture. Your crowd made this up by wishful thinking, the worst of deductive thinking. Paul (not St. Paul) did not belong to an organization and simply told Timothy to identify local men who could teach others to teach others. So it has gone on without the help of (or need for) Rome for nearly two thousand years.
I have to get to work, or I would continue.
All of this doctrinal error is fabricated by Rome. Every believer is called a "saint", a holy one of God. There is no super-status, no inner circle and certainly no one elevated by an organization. More man-made theology.
So what exactly is a "Dutchboy", anyway? The Urban Dictionary defines it as a man with many lesbian friends. Are any of yours pastors?
Inferring from your post, i still think you do have a problem with authority in this matter. Unless the authority is every person, which reduces to yourself for yourself.
Fourth, the authority rests with the Scriptures, not with any one man.
Scripture cannot be put on the stand and asked: "Which of us is right on what the text says?"
In reality, you have: I say (scripture agrees with me)/You say (scripture agrees with you) unless you recognize an authority outside scripture and outside yourself.
We are all charged with understanding what that text says. And, everyone has to interpret what they are confronted wtih. So, again, you are the authority. This eliminates any problems with other authority, but results in a plethora of meanings all claiming validity via the Holy Spirit - a statement that is self-contradicting. All cannot be true and different at the same time.
So, don't pull the "Church of Me" routine...
If you are the authority determining the meaning of scripture, you have taken on the authority of the Church. In this sense, you are The Church of Me.
everyone does this whether they realize it or not
I think so too, at least for some parts of Holy Scripture. The difference is whether they consider themselves to be the final authority or the Church on areas where the interpretations differ or they accept the authority of the Church.
Evidently, the Roman line is becoming so broken its constituents must rely upon debased filth in order to argue. We invite you to swim back over the polluted water of the Tiber, leave the clutches of Rome, cling to Jesus alone...if He allows you.
No, my FRiend, you may take that as a no. But, your odd remarks appear as evidence that the vile, debauched mindset of Rome has captured your thinking. Read your own posts. Is this the Gospel of Jesus Christ? If you believe it so, then darkness has overwhelmed you. Please reconsider such remarks.
No, my FRiend,I am able to differentiate between your comments and those of good and decent Protestants. I merely responded in kind to the contemptible comments you made about the Church with relatively lesser comments about the originator. Glass houses and all of that.......
Yes, now I suppose I can understand the connection between lesbians and Rome encouraging you to speak thus.
Interesting discussion that I was pinged to here ... uh, thanks...I guess.
Matthew 19: 11-12
I think that clears up, for me, how Jesus would feel.
If you’re looking to have a church that has no sinners in the pews ... good luck with that!
I personally believe that God doesn’t make mistakes and, you know, I believe that some people are born gay. We also have people born hermaphrodite...so we have to introspect about whether or not they are welcome in Jesus’ congregation. I believe they are.
With all due respect, while your compassion is commendable, hermeneutics would lead one to an alternate conclusion.
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