Last Temptation of Castro: Get Religion [To be Received Back into Church During Papal Visit]

Cranmer ^ | 2/4/12

[smvoice]

"Wherefore remember, that ye being IN TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision.."

"But NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off.."

"That IN THE AGES TO COME" he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace..."

Ephesians, Chapter 2.

There are THREE divisions of time right in one Chapter. NOT one eternal event.

[stfassisi]

In what nugget of divine revelation did God reveal this to you about Himself?

It's CALLED SCRIPTURE! Once you read God is unchanging it's easy to understand that everything is one event and one NOW with God.

This even basic with many mainstream protestants

The following is taken from a protestant website....

The Bible describes God as unchangeable, eternal, immutable always existing. Whatever he reveals of himself as is eternal . All his attributes are eternal, as they flow from his infinite nature who’s essence is also eternal, unchangeable.

God himself says to the Son in Heb.1:10" And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands... and they shall be changed: but thou art the same,( quote of Psalm 102:25)

Mal.3:6 " I the Lord do not change. The God of the scriptures is presented as eternal in his nature, unchanging.

The Bible teaches that God is eternal Duet. 33:27 Ps.90:2 " From everlasting to everlasting you are God."

The word teaches also teaches that all three persons of the Godhead are also eternal, all belong to the order of eternity. The Father is eternal James 1:17, the Son is eternal Hebrews 13:8 " Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever." Micah 5:2 " speaking of Jesus-whose goings forth are from old (ancient times) from everlasting (from eternity)" the Holy Spirit is eternal Heb. 9:14.Jn.2:24 God is spirit. In the scriptures only three persons are ever called God, no more than three are ever seen together as God.

[stfassisi]

Regarding the Scripture you posted..

God communicates to us using the word time that WE view within our time -but that communication is all one event and one now for God who does not change according to Scripture.

[smvoice]

God's principles never change. His character and His nature do not change. However, God's dealings with man DOES change throughout time. The stated terms of acceptance with Him have changed again and again down through the ages. Faith in Him would be expressed in different ways, according to His terms of acceptance. Hebrews 11 states that clearly.

So it is NOT an "all one event" with God. Look at the changes in the way He has dealt with man from Adam and Eve, to now. Blood sacrifices were required at first (Gen. 4:3-5; Heb. 11:4); then, later, circumcision was added (Gen. 17:14); the obedience to the whole Mosaic law was demanded (Ex. 19:5, 6, Rom. 10:5); then "then baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38). And NOW it is "To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly; his faith is counted for righteousness." (Rom. 4:5).

It is not one continuous day with God. Otherwise, why the changes in the way He has dealt with man throughout time? Why did He not just inform Adam and Eve and everyone forward that Christ died FOR OUR SINS, was buried and rose again the third day? That was not revealed until He revealed it to Paul. A quick reading of Luke 18:31-34 will prove that point. Even the 12 did not know this.

[D-fendr]

There was indeed a “church”

Yes, in the NT and afterward, a visible church, and it bears no resemblance to your church of you.

never a centrally governing authority.

Council of Jerusalem? It wasn't every individual his/her own church and authority.

Again your exegesis is shown to be very faulty, your theology and doctrine fall quickly on examination, and now your ecclesiology is revealed to be not scriptural and resembles nothing in the NT or afterward - it's a purely 20th Century invention of the unchurched.

[D-fendr]

We are not followers of men.

In your case, I believe it is a follower of a woman. Yourself.

[D-fendr]

Have I ever said I don’t meet with other believers on a regular basis?

And if there is a conflict, taking it to the church means taking it to yourself. You've already said if there's a difference of view, your's is the only one you count.

There's no church for you to take it to - just yourself, again. All dogma, doctrine, interpretation, ecclessiology is according to you. Just a small sect following an even smaller 20th Century modernist view of "church": a sect of one authority - the individual.

[D-fendr]

This even basic with many mainstream protestants

I'd say all. All Judeo-Christianity holds God as eternal, outside time, unchangeable, immutable…

Which should give us an idea of the level of theology we're dealing with in this discussion. It's really quite hopeless.

[wmfights]

So it is NOT an "all one event" with God. Look at the changes in the way He has dealt with man from Adam and Eve, to now.

I agree God has not changed, but how He chooses to interact with His creation does change in different periods. However, I do believe a constant through all the different periods is we are only saved by God's Grace through Faith. Hebrews 11 is filled with superstars from the OT who were saved because of their faith.

I believe in different periods God gives man greater free will than in other periods. The garden, the time of Noah and in the Millennial reign I believe men are given more free will and in the end we show our depraved nature, which also reveals how great God's Mercy is because none of us are worthy on our own.

[stfassisi]

You’re not thinking this through,dear friend. Believe what you want,you’re wrong and I spent enough of my time on this

All of what you described is one NOW with God-ONE eternal event otherwise you have a changeable GOD that lacks perfection. For God to change it would be he made a mistake and somehow does not know Himself.

Here is more from Saint Thomas Aquinas..

That God understands all things at once and together
THE reason why our understanding cannot understand many things together in one act is because in the act of understanding the mind becomes one with the object understood;* whence it follows that, were the mind to understand many things together in one act, it would be many things together, all of one genus, which is impossible. Intellectual impressions are all of one genus: they are of one type of being in the existence which they have in the mind, although the things of which they are impressions do not agree in one type of being: hence the contrariety of things outside the mind does not render the impressions of those things in the mind contrary to one another. And hence it is that when many things are taken together, being anyhow united, they are understood together. Thus a continuous whole is understood at once, not part by part; and a proposition is understood at once, not first the subject and then the predicate: because all the parts are known by one mental impression of the whole.* Hence we gather that whatever several objects are known by one mental presentation, can be understood together: but God knows all things by that one presentation of them, which is His essence; therefore He can understand all together and at once.

2. The faculty of knowledge does not know anything actually without some attention and advertence. Hence the phantasms, stored in the sensorium, are at times not actually in the imagination, because no attention is given to them. We do not discern together a multitude of things to which we do not attend together: but things that necessarily fall under one and the same advertence and attention, are necessarily understood together. Thus whoever institutes a comparison of two things, directs his attention to both and discerns both together. But all things that are in the divine knowledge must necessarily fall under one advertence; for God is attentive to behold His essence perfectly, which is to see it to the whole reach of its virtual content, which includes all things. God therefore, in beholding His essence, discerns at once all things that are.

6. Every mind that understands one thing after another, is sometimes potentially intelligent, sometimes actually so; for while it understands the first thing actually, it understands the second potentially. But the divine mind is never potentially intelligent, but always actually: it does not, then, understand things in succession, but all at once.

Holy Scripture witnesses to this truth, saying that with God there is no change nor shadow of vicissitude (James i, 17)

[CynicalBear]

>>And if there is a conflict, taking it to the church means taking it to yourself.<<

You’re getting awfully close to me hitting the abuse button on you. You have no idea how many other believers I meet with on a regular basis. I have on at least two occasion told you that I do meet with others. Your incessant lies about my “church of one” is getting really old so rather than dealing with such adolescence I will simply say good bye and ask that you never ping me again.

[smvoice]

Absolutely. If God says "build an ark", then faith builds an ark. It does not argue. Or bring offerings of the land, as Cain did. Faith would approach God in God's way at any time, and to seek to gain acceptance with Him in any OTHER way would be UNBELIEF and SELF-WILL.

Man has always been saved by the grace of God, through faith. There could be no other way to be saved. Faith is the belief that what God says will satisfy His justice is what will satisfy it. ANd nothing else. But God has dealt with man differently on His terms, according to His plan, throughout history. That is plainly evident in the Bible.

[wmfights]

But God has dealt with man differently on His terms, according to His plan, throughout history. That is plainly evident in the Bible.

We aren't disagreeing. If God chooses to deal differently with his creation during different periods it should be emphasized that this doesn't mean God has changed. It is the interaction that has changed. For example during the Church Age Israel has been partially blinded. Israel does not see the Truth that Jesus is the Messiah, but failing to see this does not mean God has changed.

[D-fendr]

And you’ve told me if you disagree on a dispute, your view wins.

Ergo: Taking it to the church means taking it to yourself.

[D-fendr]

Taking it to the church means there is a group or body with authority that can override, correct, your view and discipline you.

Do you acknowledge any such?

[narses]

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “

[metmom]

It's CALLED SCRIPTURE! Once you read God is unchanging it's easy to understand that everything is one event and one NOW with God.

Chapter and verse please.....

[stfassisi]

You were given all sorts of Scripture in post #679

Here is another, that was read at Mass today...

James 1:17
“Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers and sisters:
all good giving and every perfect gift is from above,
coming down from the Father of lights,
with whom there is NO ALTERATION AND SHADOW CAUSED BY CHANGE.”

Perhaps this explanation that was given to me by an old friend might help you understand this...

Imagine a very large mountain. Now picture many hundreds of people standing around this mountain. Now, each of these people represent a person doing something in one month of time. Each person is representative of a particular month and year. So you would have 12 people representative of “year 1”, and so forth. Now, these people. They are facing another person of the “past” months and years. They cannot face into the “future” months and years. This is how we see time. We can look at ourselves (present) OR the past time that has gone by. Now God. Let’s say God has a bird’s eye view above this mountain. He looks down at all of these people. His “view” takes in ALL of the people. He is able to see “Jan, year 1”, all the way to the last month and year, say “Mar 2079”. Thus, God’s view of time is all-encompassing. He sees all time as one present event. Also, He is not subject to it. He can “reach down” into the “people”, the “times”, and give them help or gifts. God is accessible to ALL times, since He can reach every person surrounding the mountain at any “time” He desires - while time is not moving forward for us.

With this analogy, it becomes a bit easier to see how God is able to reach into various points of time - while also viewing thousands of years later during the “same instant”. With this in mind, there is no past or future. To God, all is one PRESENT. One NOW. As He does things “within time”, time isn’t changing, for Him. Those people still represent the same month and date - thus, no time changed. He is able to effect any point of time - while viewing how man or time will change - by looking at a “future” month and year.

Does that help?

Any other explanation I have heard is our view of God on a time line. For example, saying that one day to God is 1000 years to us. It is a human way of saying that God’s “time” is not our “time”. But it doesn’t explain how God is unchanging. IF God’s time WAS “one day” to our “one thousand years”, literally, then God WOULD change! The above is the best way to try to explain how God is unchanging and is able to see ALL time simultaneously

[D-fendr]

Q.E.D.

[metmom]

God being able to perceive of experience everything simultaneously, if that really does in fact happen in the first place, is not the same as events which happen within time happening continually and concurrently outside of this space/time.

If that were the case, then every murder, every rape, every lie, would also be happening concurrently outside of time, to be experienced in the same way as Christ’s dying.

Besides, it’s not His DYING that saves us and sets us free, it’s His death and resurrection. So if Jesus is forever dying, then He hasn’t risen and can’t save because death hasn’t been defeated.