Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc

I'm a bit loathe to wade into such again. However, The Lord HAS brought to my awareness a couple of things this past week that kind of goad me into posting. I'm MORE loathe to allow Holy Spirit to go unrepresented on such scores on FR after the recent thrashing His works received on that other locked thread.

I'm NOT interested in going around and around with the more irrationally and unBiblically harsh posters on that other thread. They will likely arrive and rant as they did on that thread. I may or may not respond with pics and gifs. I don't plan to engage them with yet more futile words.

And, the chronically, habitually, generally carpy naysayers can just go suck rock candy or lolly pops. Their reaping is already scheduled. If they want to earn more of such from The Lord, that's their business.

I know the authenticity of Holy Spirit's gifts and workings in my own life. I have to be responsible to His interactions with me and leadings of me in my own life. And, as I feel led, to speak up in behalf of His gifts in this era.

I don't feel responsible to try and bore a hole and pour it in. And, I am not inclined to get two bricks and try and make the camel drink water. Doesn't work with women anyway.

I learned this week that the wife of a close relative of mine was miraculously healed in a Kenneth Copeland service. She had a serious case of . . . [serious]. . . cancer in advanced stages and was not expected to live. Her blood count was 5 but I don't know what aspect of her blood count was 5. Maybe I'll find out and post it later.

My relative had escorted her to the front row where she sat, unable to stand and looking like 'death warmed over' in extreme weakness.

Kenneth instructed his wife Gloria to go down and lay hands on her. She was immediately and totally healed. She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.

As I understand it, the medical verification documentation is quite conclusive. She may even publish it all in her own narrative in due course. I'm not inclined to give more info for my privacy.

She had been on a mission trip to Guatemala. In one of their gatherings in one of the poorest churches--a ramshackle tin building affair . . . a local church member began to give a message in tongues. This person had never learned English at all.

The woman spoke quite clear English and told of how God was going to give them a newer larger building much better for their church.

The woman had no idea what she had said. When Pastor's team told her what she'd said, she broke down almost in convulsions for joy and in humility over the Lord using her so to bring such a longed for message to her congregation. As I understand it, that did then transpire exactly as she'd declared in a language she did not know.

On the same mission trip, they went to a very wealthy church led by a Pastor who lived in a wealthy home with marble walls etc. Pastor visited the man's opulent home.

Holy Spirit spoke to Pastor and told her that the man was having an affair with his secretary and that Pastor must confront him and call him to repentance. Pastor has a very powerful prophetic gifting though is not per se a prophet.

Pastor told their local tour guide who was in personal relationship with all the pastors of the churches they visited--including this wealthy one. She replied to Pastor: "You'd better be right!"

Pastor confronted him and he admitted it. He did not repent but justified it with sleezey rationalizing that he was 'supposed to love the sheep.'

I felt when Pastor related the story that the man has since, rather soon after that, died but I haven't verified that even with Pastor. She may not know.

You also have to understand the difference between tongues and tongue.

Remember, Paul is going to several different places where his native language isn't spoken so him having the gift of languages or tongue would help spread his message.

While it could be argued that Saul, as a Pharisee of the Pharisees had a great education which no doubt included languages but Saul, now Paul, is able to travel all over the place the Holy Spirit lets him go and he is always able to converse with them in their native tongue.

I'm of the opinion that speaking in tongues is akin to a clanging bell.

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

People should also keep in mind, Deut 29:29. The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

This simply means that God and God alone knows the whole plan, we only know what has been revealed. And, for those books that are timelines, it's possible that God hasn't revealed the plan until you get into the book and God gradually reveals what he is allowing us to know.

It's also good to keep in mind what might and I say might have been on God's mind. If he laid out everything in Bible, we don't posses God's brain so it would be worthless to us as our minds can't compare to Gods; God could also have dumbed down the Bible so our human minds could comprehend it but again, there's a problem, dumb it down to much and its meaning is lost; don't dumb it down enough, and our human minds can't comprehend it.

I'm not a Biblical scholar, my understanding of the Bible is the result of me standing on the shoulders of giants who did all the heavy lifting.

If you want a no nonsense Bible study guide, I prefer Les Feldick; he's opened my mind to several parts I was having trouble with.

Les Feldick's web site.

Although I think he's no longer producing his show, Through The Bible with Les Feldick, he is on reruns all over the place and a more humble and self effacing man you could never encounter.

Nice, little
Couplet.

I’ve seen your work in the UFO kookery threads.

1) If someone doesn’t believe you, you mention how many years you’ve spent studying the subject; an appeal to authority if ever there was one.

2) Then you mention how you are trying to get this UFO bs out in order to save us. While I find it quaint that you think our salvation is in your hands, it is not.

So,
1) Are crop circles real?
1a) Are they created by man?
1b) Are they created by Aliens?

2) Do you believe in UFOs?
2a) Do you believe UFOs are aliens?

3) Let us know, what you really believe.

Repent, receive forgiveness and healing. - - - - Wow that is so stupid I don’t know where to begin...

Pleasant reply. But I did not write it. That was written by James under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Take your complaint to your Heavenly Father, not me.

Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. James 5:14-16 NIV

Note the question in verse 15 - is anyone sick. Meditate on why James would ask that question.

The Bible says we are not to seek after signs (Matthew 12).

I assume you mean this:

Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

... and as a point of order, it does not say we are not to seek after signs... It says that a wicked generation/people would seek after signs, and not find ANY, except for the sign of Jonas... One could argue the point to say that if you cannot see signs, you should wonder if you are a part of that 'generation' which cannot see anything until they understand the Sign of Jonah... Because there is a common inference which suggests there is a counterpoint to this wicked generation, one which WILL see signs... one which WILL see... No offense meant FRiend - I just see your remark as painting with a very broad brush.

There is great wealth in Matt 12, if one can cast off one's presuppositions and SEE what it says... But then, that is probably enough meat to deserve it's own thread altogether.

While I am not as vociferous about tongues as my dear friend Quix, I DO rise in defense of the Gifts - ALL OF THEM - It seems that the general consensus of the churches in general (since the middle ages) is that anything that is supernatural is magick and is to be avoided. Ergo, any sign, any wonderment, anything extraordinary, is frowned upon as the work of the devil.

But IMHO, those who believe as such stand very close to those who have a form of godliness but deny His power. Where is the power and the proof of YHWH AS GOD without manifestation... without prophecies coming true, without healing and such things? Are we to deny His challenges to us... Where He says 'DO THIS and watch what happens in your life'? That necessitates manifestation.

A big part of that manifestation is the Gifts, AS PROMISED.

Now, I have read over and over on this thread about every sort of charlatan which may purport to have a supernatural calling, and how these MUST prove that all such things are false. I have no idea who Copeland is, or what he stands for, but the premise itself I would deny profoundly. I have witnessed and participated in these Gifts, far away from the glare of media lights, and I know them to be true. If there is one thing that my Pentecostal friends have taught me, it is to live in the expectation of miracles, and from that I have been greatly rewarded in both faith and doctrine (not to mention miracles themselves).

Can these things fall prey to charlatans? certainly so, just as doctrine based, faith based, or liturgically based systems can (and do). Perhaps one could say the consequence in this case is more dire (which I would deny), but if it is, it is only more dire because the truth of it, when found, is so much more powerful. So much more quick and enlivening... Because what is one's faith if one cannot live every moment in expectation?

Again, I am speaking in a greater generality than the topic at hand, but it is a subject which intrinsically includes this topic. Remembering that tongues is but the least of the gifts, not only tongues, but where are the rest? It says specifically that these gifts would follow the believers - if these things are not present and able to be witnessed in one's own life, then I would submit that some fault exists, and it is a big one.

I do know the Bible well enough to know unbiblical teachings when I see one.

And knowing the entire Bible is 'key' to discerning when unbiblical teachings are spoken and taught. Which is why today so many are easily mis-led into other false religions and or false practices...they are blank slates for the most part ready to have whatever teachings might be presenting their wares.

The difficult issues is many who know the Lord are being mis-led today....even though they are uncomfortable with the direction they are in, or are going, their "teachers" are quick to tell them not to be afraid, or that it's satan trying to get in their way of the experience God wants them to have. So they press on believing they are fighting the enemy of mens souls when in fact they are opposing the very sensibilities and discernment he's given them that something is wrong and or dangerous.

It is vital today that Christians understand and know the scriptures....otherwise as these various false teachers present their teachings they will be a target.

As for Copeland......

Quote on TBN, Kenneth Copeland.....“Dogs beget dogs cats beget cats, and God beget Gods, you are little Gods.”....

Sound familiar? He's clearly crossed over and has brought the church to exactly what the 'New Age Occultic' teachings and also' Mormonism' teachings which have been saying for years,... that we are all Christed. ........And it not surprising when we have heard such surprising statements like this one from Copeland:

" That nature is like eternal in absolute perfection. ....And that was imparted, injected into your spirit man..... And you have that imparted into you by God just the same as you imparted into your child the nature of humanity. ......Well now, you don't have a human do you? No, you are one..... You don't have a god in you, you are one."

Copeland, Binn, and many others now in the Emerging church are all on the same path, and they with Mormonism, New Age Spirituality are all promoting the very same agenda and it is not of the Lord Jesus Christ...but another Christ...which Jesus himself warned us would come from "within" the church.

I do know the Bible well enough to know unbiblical teachings when I see one.

It is vital today that Christians understand and know the scriptures....otherwise as these various false teachers present their teachings they will be a target.

As for Copeland......

Quote on TBN, Kenneth Copeland.....“Dogs beget dogs cats beget cats, and God beget Gods, you are little Gods.”....

Sound familiar? He's clearly crossed over and has brought the church to exactly what the 'New Age Occult' teachings and also' Mormonism' teachings which have been saying for years,... that we are all Christed. ........And it not surprising when we have heard such surprising statements like this one from Copeland:

Copeland, Binn, and many others now in the Emerging church are all on the same path, and they with Mormonism, New Age Spirituality, and the New isalmic Chrislam, are all promoting the very same agenda and it is not of the Lord Jesus Christ...but another Christ...which Jesus himself warned us would come from "within" the church..and these are the teachers who went out from us in our day...false and deceptive who distort, abuse and mis-lead people ...dangerous hardly says enough...

Oh yeah, is doesn’t take a genius to see that I believe any and all things related to UFOs to be the result of deliberate deception, the desire to inflate one’s meaning in life; certainly, none are extra-terrestrial. I would really like to see your theory how they are able to break the light speed barrier, not exactly a trivial job.

I especially love the crop circle researchers who can tell the difference from a ‘real’ one and one produced by some drunk college kids. They mention things like how the stems are bent over at an angle and inter weaved in a way no human could possibly forge. Pity, that more than one ‘expert’ on kook crop circles have been taken in by these folks who create crop circles with a 2x4 and some rope.

Wow. Those quotes are scary!

Unfortunately not to those who follow these "wolfs" which I believe them to be and which they evidence they are. People seem to have a hard time today telling the difference between

Jesus made it clear they would perform healings, miracles and counterfeit all which is of God and worse do so in His name....that is what we are seeing.

Copeland is a very dangerous man for his teachings....those quotes given are only the tip of the iceburg...he is so far away from the truth now and promoting the New Age Spirituality agenda...as well as that Of Mormonism and other so called "teachers" who are setting people up for the final deception which is to come. The Emmergent Church is also on that road and frightening to see what we once respected as those solid in the faith are falling into this movement...as well catholicism is also moving that direction.

In Word-Faith philosophy, there is no will of God, only your "I which becomes, as they claim, God's will. And all that God has is yours - His nature, His power, His wealth. It is man-centered and self is it's focus...aas with the others just mentioned.

Copeland also stated BY PROPHECY stating he was speaking for Jesus Christ to the people.... ......"Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of being God, the more you get to be like me (Jesus) the more there going to think that way of you. They crucified Me for claiming that I was God. ......But I didn’t claim I was God.... I just claimed I walked with Him and that He was in Me.... Hallelujah."

Reaganaut....Note Copeland claims Jesus admitting HE wasn't God...and that is Anti-Christ..no doubt about it. And yet Copelands followers continue to follow him and defend him. As you know studying the cults and false religions takes time but you do see the similarities among them and the general flow they are all now taking today.....they will merge "in Spirit" as they will say ...eventually though it will not be the Spirit of the Christian Christ who unites them.

Sounds like your mind-reader needs junked and traded in on a new one.

Nothing about mind reading Quix..and your response just made my point......if you'd cease those snarky responses then I'd take you more seriously, but you don't, instead they are knee jerk reactions and cause division and further mis-lead from the topic at hand...exactly the same as was done on the last thread of this nature...and which is also common within the churches when these so called gifts are brought into them until the church splits....and that as we know is not of the Lord.

As A reminder the Topic is Kenneth Copeland and the Tongues he professes.

I would think since you both claim such a "gift" your comments would certainly be framed in such a way as to reveal that Spirit which has given it.....obviously they don't which would then indicate that the spirit claimed may very well not be the one one might profess....and clearly in Copelands case he does not speak the truth rather mingles it with christian verbiage to appeal to his audience and followers....who get so wrapped up in their experiences and emotions Copelands lies go right over their heads.

And I'd appreciate it if you don't speak to me on what 'you think' about God on what HE does/doesn't do. He's MY God, that makes HIM personal to me. I KNOW HIM. His ways, His thoughts are higher than yours.

Well, I'd appreciate it if you refrain from telling me what I can and cannot do. You post a comment on an open forum thread, guess what, I can freely answer it and give my opinions, which is what you are doing. God is a personal God and I know him personally, but that doesn't mean you OR I can confect our own doctrines about him. He has already told us all we need to know about him by his Divinely-inspired Holy Scriptures. Jesus is God in the flesh and everything he taught that is needful for us to know, is in the Bible. His thoughts ARE higher than our thoughts and His ways above our ways - they are "past finding out".

I'd appreciate it if people would stop trying to "sell" God as the equivalent of a magic genie ready to grant our every wish and desire. Short changing God is when anyone presumes to know better than Him about what he does and doesn't do in each individual life. Suffering IS part of His plan and healing is NOT always His best - deal with it!

Hello boatbums....have been looking at some of Copelands teachings and is no wonder he’s considered a false teacher...he truly has developed his own teachings which go beyond and opposes God’s word and gives the very appearance of Jesus on earth as by the will of men as follows:

Copeland states:

“Jesus existed only as an image in the heart of God, until such time as the prophets of the Old Testament could positively ‘confess Jesus into existence’ through their constant prophecies” ....(Kenneth Copeland, The Power of the Tongue, pp. 8-10).

He further states:

“Here’s where we’re gonna depart from ordinary church:..... Now, you see, God is injecting His Word into the earth to produce this Jesus—these faith-filled words that framed the image that’s in Him…He can’t just walk onto the earth and say, “Let it be!” because He doesn’t have the right. He had to sneak it in here around the god of this world that was blockin’ every way that he possibly could.”...... (Kenneth Copeland, The Image of God in You III (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989), audiotape #01-1403, side 2.

He continues by adding,...... “God was making promises to Jesus, and Jesus wasn’t even there. But, you see, God deals with things that are not yet as though they already were. That’s the way He gets them to come to pass.”...... (Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1990), audiotape #02-0017.)

Copeland states additionally and note the last sentence......”So before Jesus came to the earth, God spoke His Word and then spoke His Word again.... How many times did He say the Messiah was coming It was prophesied over hundreds, even thousands, of years. He kept saying, ‘He is coming. He is ‘coming..... the circumstances in the earth made it look as if there was no way He could accomplish it; but He just kept saying it. He would not be moved by what He saw.... God would not relent.” (the power of the tongue 9-10.) So here God spoke the universe into existence (which the Bible attributes to Jesus)...... but to make him a human it took a long time of confession.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.