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Childish behavior - all about individual Freepers
Skip to comments.Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc
Posted on 03/09/2012 10:46:28 AM PST by Quix
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Great news on your relative. Praise God! HE is faithful and always the same.
Who is "blaming" God? Paul said he learned to be content in times of want, in whatever state he was in, and he learned the sufficiency of God's power and grace when he suffered and was weak. If we never had a problem, how would we learn patience? How would our faith grow if we always had every thing we needed and never knew sickness or pain? How would we learn to trust Him? How sad to shortchange God that we have to see his plans for our lives as "abuse" instead of chastisement and discipline - that proves we are HIS and that he is working in our lives. David knew loss, Job knew suffering, Abraham knew fear, Moses knew want and ALL of them are our examples of faith THROUGH those trials. Read Hebrews 11 if you really want to see God's purpose for suffering. He is NO fairy godmother or Santa Claus.
Possibly, but I was addressing Kandy. When one knows Him, one knows HE doesn't hold one good thing back from His children. However, we can get tangled up with receiving it. Not that we can, we do. And there HE is, again, helping us with that if we let Him.
Scripture says, "No good thing shall he withhold from those who walk uprightly". Sometimes, in God's time frame, sickness, want, need, suffering IS the "good thing" for us at that time. It is ALWAYS for our best, He works all things for good. Don't shortchange God.
Don't ask me.
Read Hebrews 11 if you really want to see God's purpose for suffering
Read it yourself. I KNOW my God, HIS WILL, HIS Purposes, HIS Promises which are Yes and AMEN.
He is NO fairy godmother or Santa Claus.
You have a pretty low opinion of HIM. He's God - He's in a class ALL by HIMSELF.
Here I am at post 86 and I see this thread is Part 2 a carry over from the last thread. I suspect we’ll be hearing before too long “Nobody’s listening to me” ...”I’m not being heard” etc. etc. etc. Same stuff, same emotional responses and snarky remarks right from the get go.
Perhaps this time around the truth will break thru, but the truth is not what the poster of the article is seeking IMO...so I don’t expect any change in the posts.
DON'T YOU!!!! And I'd appreciate it if you don't speak to me on what 'you think' about God on what HE does/doesn't do. He's MY God, that makes HIM personal to me. I KNOW HIM. His ways, His thoughts are higher than yours.
Are you sure that isn't 30,000 personal interpretations of Scripture?
Sheesh, you know who you sound like???????
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
PRAISE GOD FOR HIS FAITHFULNESS.
Because Satan knows they are more dangerous to him and has diverted the focus onto less dangerous and more controversial matters. Hes convinced many in leadership positions that they should teach prosperity, healing, tongues, and all types of less dangerous to him matters. Its a good way to get people to doubt both their faith and God.
Satan is getting desperate knowing his time is short and the diversions will grow stronger. The simple gospel of Jesus Christ and faith in Him alone is what is needed now more than ever.
I don’t know of anyone stopping you.
Evidently there’s some notches to be gained in one’s halo for throwing rocks at the gifts of Holy Spirit’s operations in this current era.
Or, even more likely, satan doesn’t appreciate the potency of such gifts of Holy Spirit operating routinely and fittingly in the New Testament era Church life and congregation.
By all means, start a dozen threads on the fruit of Holy Spirit. More power to you.
You won’t find me draging a train-load of gilded rocks to throw at such postings on such threads, either.
That covers it, of course, anyone who’s studied the Bible knows, there are oftentimes two different but correct answers.
Circumcision is one. Although the Gentile does not need to be circumcised, Paul circumcised Timothy in order to basically get their foot in the door with Jews.
Acts 16:1-3 says,
Paul came also to Derbe and Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer; but his father was a Greek. He was well spoken of by the brethren at Lystra and Iconium. Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews that were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.
Yet in Galatians, Paul refuses to let Titus get circumcised.
I don’t like the newer translations, I prefer King James.
I dont know of anyone stopping you.
Evidently theres some notches to be gained in ones halo for throwing rocks at the gifts of Holy Spirits operations in this current era.
Or, even more likely, satan doesnt appreciate the potency of such gifts of Holy Spirit operating routinely and fittingly in the New Testament era Church life and congregation.
By all means, start a dozen threads on the fruit of Holy Spirit. More power to you.
You wont find me draging a train-load of gilded rocks to throw at such postings on such threads, either.
Allow me to rephrase for clarity:
If you don't agree with me (Quix), you're doing Satan's work.
Hmm, doesn't sound so good when reduced to its essence.
If you choose to get bogged down in the quibbling about peripheral issues feel free but please dont try to drag me into it.
Does Nana pray in tongues ???
Does Nana have to ???
No but I get to...
Has The LORD Jesus Christ ever healed Nana of anything drastic ???
Yes Cancer and a stroke and other things
Is Nana thankful to her God ???
Yes God is amazing and moves Nana to tears of joy...
Whats God done for Nana lately ???
How do you tell the difference from what you claim is authentic gifts and that of the counterfeits satan does and has counterfeited today? What standard of testing is used in your church to discern these so called gifts as being authentic or not?
Asking this because there is no written accounts of people or the apostles going into uncontrollable twitching and rolling on the floor, nor of going into trances, or of the Apostles touching peoples heads and them falling over backwards............
On the contrary these outward behaviors 'are common occurrences' throughout the world among pagan tribes such as the Zulu's and other false religions of the eastern world, when they call on the spirits of their pagan Gods....in fact they commonly speak in tongues and belief they are speaking the languages of their pagan Gods.
We have to remember that Paul begins chapter 12 concerning the spiritual gifts in the Corinthian church, in that they were ignorant concerning these, and that as pagans lead astray by these very practices which they had brought into their worship in the church. They had made the focus of their worship the same as they were accustomed to before they were saved.....bringing these behaviors into the church was exactly what Paul was addressing and their abuses and ignorance of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as to that of a different Spirit...those they had been accustomed to calling on...they simply switched Gods but continued with the behaviors.
He states:...."Now concerning Spiritual Gifts..I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans somehow or another you were influenced and led astray to mute idols."
They were in fact 'cursing Jesus by the use of tongues' in which is why Paul warns and continues...." Therefore I tell you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says "Jesus be accursed"...which in fact was what they were doing for there was no order whatsoever within the Corinthian church....'they were carnal'.. seeking the ecstasy and emotional highs and confusion of what they had been accustomed to and practiced in the city of Corinth....
Interesting is to see this very same behavior today within many of these churches who focus on the spiritual gifts....their sevices are completely out of control and emotions run more than just high...they become tranced out and carry on something fierce. IMO this is not the Spirit of Christ Jesus....but something else altogether.
Indeed, that is true, however, neither does any parent who wants to raise mature, disciplined children cater to every whim and demand the children make on them.
God not withholding any good thing from His children does not equate to holding God hostage to giving us what we want because WE think it's good for us.
Luke 11:13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!
The good gift that God gives us is the Holy Spirit. Nothing else matters in comparison. But if God becomes nothing more than a giant pez machine, dispensing *good thing* (as WE think they are) to us on demand, well, any child raised like that becomes a spoiled brat with entitlement mentality, and that is EXACTLY what I've seen so many Christians in churches becoming.
The problem is is that materialism has become so rampant in the church today that people think they're entitled to perfect lives here on earth, that they have to have prosperity and health, and think that all that counts is physical comfort and physical blessing. They have totally lost sight of the spiritual aspect of it with their soul prospering.
When I said to a friend once that I considered this eating issue like the refiner's fire and that I saw it as something God was using in my life to draw me closer to Him, she said, "No, no, no, no,....." and rebuked that kind of thinking in typical name it and claim it fashion. That was until she went through her own health crisis and saw what God did in her through that instead of instantly healing her as she was demanding and *claiming*.
That will not be accepted by the name it and claim it crowd.
What they do with Hebrews 12:5-11 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. 6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Charismatics disallow sickness as being the means of discipline and correction, but I have yet to see chapter and verse supporting that theology.
23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
Tongues is NOT a sign of anything for believers, certainly not a sign of salvation or filling of the Holy Spirit. That is wrong teaching because it directly contradicts what Paul teaches.
I’m an Evangelical, and frankly opposed to ‘religion’ because of my background. Do I know what is in Kenneth’s heart? I never said I did. I never questioned his salvation. What I did question is his teachings. His teachings are unbiblical and need those teachings need to be called out and he needs to be rebuked. That is what Christians do when a believer is in error.
He doesn’t need to teach from the Book of Mormon to teach things counter to the Bible. He does not need to start a religion to be a cult leader. Your rabid defense of him shows that he holds great sway over your and that is a sign of a cult leader. We are to put no man on a pedestal, and that includes our pastors. The pedestal you are putting him on sure looks like cult leader to me.
You said judge him by his fruit. I was referring to Matthew, not Galations. And of course every believer should bear the fruits of the Spirit, but again Mormons claim the same fruit. That doesn’t make them Christian.
No, not just people on television although they tend to be more susceptible to heresy especially “word faith”.
You seem to have this issue with “heresy hunters” a term I had not heard until now. I don’t go looking for heresy, but I do know the Bible well enough to know unbiblical teachings when I see one. I fight the heresies of Mormonism every single day.
Thank you. I do this because no one warned me about Mormonism and I thank God that a Christian gave up his job in California and moved to Provo and opened a bookstore and asked his former congregation to pray for the LDS he would meet.
He took a chance and God used him to reach me. He stood for the truth and let God use him to reach others rather than just spout “Well, God doesn’t need anyone to warn others” or ‘let God sort them out’ like we see so often on here.
As you have previously stated...this WAS, past tense, a an understood and 'known' language heard by those of other dialect present at the time, and in their language spoken....it was not some sort of heavenly gibbirish as is claimed today rather distinctly spoken and understood.
Also it was indeed 'a sign' to the "UN-BELIEVING Jewish nation present. Who famously sought such manifestations out of the ordinary in the times of which they lived.
Unfortunately we are living in a time now where people are purposely seeking the "feel good" and mystical "experiences" as the stage is being set for what is to come. Many are wired now to expect some form of "proof" and base their faith not on Christ alone but on that which they feel and the expereinces which often are simply a matter of hypnotic trances and or by their own desires manufacture the happenings within their brains...as New Agers do in their out of the body "expereinces".
The frightening part of this movement and others like it is the physical affects can and do lead to some becoming very imbalanced mentally....and damaged emotionally. It becomes an addiction to have and experience the next "High" and used to "take them away" from an otherwise unfulfilled life perhaps otherwise.
If you note at many of these churches who practice this behavior...little is spent on actually study of the scriptures outside of those picked to undergerd and support their happenings...and why they will usually always refer to the Corinthian chapters and verse...or knit-pick scripture from other areas to twist into those verses. They waste no time in their services on scripture otherwise and those used are often used to excite and stimulate the people along in order to set the stage for the 'experiences' and out of control behaviour they do enjoy and look forward to thereafter.
It's all staged and focused on getting to the place where their so called "Holy Spirit" manifestations, by and via their so called "anointed" leader occur. When in fact it is by another spirit I believe this behavior is being promoted and certainly in no way represents the Holy Spirit of God.
And it isn’t just related to salvation, I have had more than a few times when the Holy Spirit slapped me upside the head to do something. One of the most forceful was to invite an atheist friend who was spending the weekend with us to go to church. The only way I can describe it was a nearly audible voice yelling “ASK HER TO CHURCH!” and a hand stopping me from walking past her (I was headed to another part of the house).
I obeyed and she accepted Christ that day, and had her own Damascus road experience. Not all Christians who are saved have an intense conversion experience or Damascus road (Mr.R did not - he accepted Christ as a child), but the Holy Spirit speaks to us all the time as believers and sometimes He has to get our attention.
I have a real issue with people who think speaking in tongues is proof of salvation or required of it. I have seen people pushed away from God because they were told they were not really saved if they didn’t speak in tongues.
Besides the fact that it adds to grace to make tongues a requirement for salvation.
Your mind-reading skills
your putting words in my fingers skills.
I said what I meant and meant what I said.
Where did I ping you to this thread?
The good gift that God gives us is the Holy Spirit
Amen. "And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, HE who raised Christ from the dead will also GIVE LIFE TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES through His Spirit, who lives in you."
I BELIEVE HIM when HE SPEAKS! PRAISE GOD!!
VERY WELL PUT.
PRAISE THE LORD.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Did you ever read Charles and Francis Hunter’s book on such things? I forget what it’s called. Wonderful description of their transition from hostile to tongue talking, laying hands on Charismatics! LOL.
I don’t recall any making that transition who could do more than shake their heads at their ‘old self.’
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
where on this thread
or where ever on FR
or where ever anywhere
have I ever said such a thing, written such a thing or supported such a thing?
What is WITH all this compulstion to drag every straw dog in the neighborhood into such threads?
I hear you Quix - GOD IS FAITHFUL to HIS WORD ALL THE TIME!
Sounds like your mind-reader needs junked and traded in on a new one.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
I didn’t name you Quix, but I have seen it a lot. And, I’m sorry but some of your phrases and comments appear to come from that quarter. If I am wrong I am sorry, but that is how it seems sometimes from someone who generally avoids these threads (me).
A word of caution to all. It is very easy to add things to Grace without realizing we are doing it.
It sounds you went to Him as a little child believing HIM. Obedience is better than sacrifice!
Whats God done for Nana lately ??? Everything..
AMEN!! and AMEN!! But we must be careful, others might want to called us spoiled brats for believing HIM.
There are Doctors of Theology that teach sickness is a blessing from God. In fact I read a “testimony” on that very subject from a DT posted on this forum not too long ago. You can attend (and I have) mainline denominations and they will preach God does not, or may not heal. If you preach against something, you will NEVER receive it.
Before looking at scriptures, consider an earthly parent. Would ANY earthly parent give their child cancer or throw them in front of a bus to teach them patience? Would any earthly parent sit by and watch their child suffer if they had the means to stop the pain just so they could endure some perverted form of discipline?
Please, SERIOUSLY meditate on the last paragraph for a moment.
And yet that is EXACTLY what people are accusing MY Heavenly Father of doing - child abuse. You don’t think the CREATOR of the universe, a God who IS LOVE, could not provide a way for His children to be healed, made whole and glorify Him in their bodies?
If its not God’s will for you to be healed and whole, why are Christians going to the doctor? Why does everyone want to be well? Would they not be going against God’s will since they are not “patiently suffering for the Lord”? And if God is “teaching them a lesson”, but they are taking medicine, treatment and enduring pain, do you think anyone would really grow in faith or closer to God when it would appear to most intelligent people that God is a tormenter, not a healer.
So let’s look at the Bible and answer some of these questions.
Sin, sickness and death are all related. All entered the World when Adam sinned. All were put away by Jesus’ sacrifice. If we are redeemed from sin, shouldn’t we also be redeemed from sickness and the entire curse? Absolutely!
And to answer a question before it gets asked, yes, just like someone can sin after being Born Again, someone can get sick. But it is not God’s will and He provides a solution for both. Repent, receive forgiveness and healing.
Praise the LORD, my soul, and forget not all his benefitswho forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases, Psalm 103:2-3 NIV
Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:4-5 NIV
These are Old Testament prophets looking forward to redemption with the help of the Holy Spirit. For brevity I just listed 2, but you can also see: Exodus 15:26, 23:25, Deut 7:14-15, 28:1-14, 30:19-20, Psalm 91, 107:19-21, 118:7, Isaiah 40:28-31, 41:10, Jeremiah 30:17, Malachi 4:2
As long as the children of Israel were obedient, they had a covenant of healing. But even when sin brought on the curse of sickness, when they prayed for healing, God would provide an answer. The most obvious example is when the children rebelled and said that “God brought them to the wilderness to die”. Their own words were their downfall as they decreed that they would die and snakes came and bit them (BTW - God did NOT send the snakes). It was their words that brought judgement. God told Moses to build a bronze snake (This is loaded with revelation and Truth) on a pole. Everyone who looked at it, was healed. This is a type of Christ and if you get a revelation, sickness will no longer be a problem. (Numbers 21:4-9, John 3:14-15 - do a study on what Eternal Life or Salvation really means in all of its Glory.)
I’m skipping lots of Spiritual food, but let’s jump to the earthly ministry of Jesus. John 10:10 is one of the most important verses in the Bible. Until you understand the nature of God and the adversary, you will have difficulty understanding the source of evil and the source of good in this world.
The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life. John 10:10 NLT
These words spoken by Jesus define the struggle of the ages. Satan’s sole purpose is to steal, kill and destroy. This is amplified by numerous passages - the woman bound by satan 18 years for instance. And all the demons Jesus cast out, many of which were causing physical afflictions. I challenge anyone that believes it is God’s will for people to be sick or suffer to learn patience, to find any instance in the life and ministry of Jesus that would affirm that. It does not exist. He had compassion on everyone. There is no telling how many hundreds, if not thousands, were healed, made whole and raised from the dead during his time on earth.
There is NO record anywhere in the Gospels of Jesus patting people on the head and saying, “suffer for the Lord my son.” Wherever he found faith, he healed. Even when faith was almost nonexistent, love drove him to heal people. If Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, why would that change? Jesus is the Head of the Body of Christ (The Church or all Believers). He does not want a hangnail on the pinky toe of his body. Of that, I am certain!
You know the events that took place throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and curing all who were under the tyranny of the Devil, because God was with Him. Acts 10:37-38 HCSB
So now we turn to the post-resurrecton period. Instead of looking to the Word for faith, too many people look to the world and tradition. They see Aunt Ethel who suffered with cancer, but was a Sunday School teacher all her life, and they rationalize away God’s will and provision to heal. If a million people die from cancer, it DOES NOT CHANGE GOD’S WORD. If He says you are healed. YOU ARE HEALED!!! Truth is TRUTH.
What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify Gods faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4 NIV
This small passage was one of many breakthroughs for me. God’s Word is Truth. It can be trusted. Even if every theologian on the planet and every dogmatic religion disagrees, I can trust God’s Word. God has made provision for everything you could possibly need and given you the Word so that by faith it is all yours. God will do what He says. But will you trust Him?
In Deuteronomy 28, the latter half of the chapter describes the curse. It covers every horrible thing satan will bring upon those that disobey including sickness of all types. When I read that portion, I preface each part with: “I am redeemed from...” Because that IS TRUTH.
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Galatians 3:13-14 NIV
It would take a theologian to not understand this passage. We ARE redeemed from everything in Deuteronomy 28:15-68. And have been added to Abraham’s family with full access to ALL the BLESSING (read 1-15 for a few).
This is getting way too long so let’s skip to some of your questions:
Job - Read Job 1 so you can see that God did not bring disaster on Job. Satan’s complaint against God was that God had placed a HEDGE OF PROTECTION around Job and blessed everything he did. That’s pretty sweet! Now what brought that hedge down? I am amazed by how many people miss this. Job was operating in fear, not faith. He was continually sacrificing for his kids because he thought they had sinned. (1:4-5; 3:25-26) Job suffered needlessly because instead of trusting God, the source of his success and protection, he was operating in an irrational fear. That opened the door and authorized Satan to wreak havoc. When Job repented, after a whole lot of foolish talk and bad advice from his friends, God stepped back in, replaced the hedge, healed him and blessed him with twice what he had before. There was no glory in suffering. It was done in ignorance and is in the Bible as a cautionary tale as to what fear will allow satan to do in one’s life.
Moses - I see nowhere in Moses life where he suffered illness. The Children came out of Egypt loaded with wealth and there was not a single person feeble. (Wipe that Cecile B Demille image out of your head of a bunch of sick and crippled folks leaving Egypt.) God supernaturally healed them all for the journey and supllied their daily food. When they sinned and sickness came, see above, God provided and answer - the Bronze snake on a pole. During the plagues, NOTHING touched the Jewish nation. When the angel of death came through, the blood of the lamb on the door protected those inside. Interesting. The Blood protected them from evil.
He brought out Israel, laden with silver and gold, and from among their tribes no one faltered. Psalm 105:37 NIV
Be careful to follow every command I am giving you today, so that you may live and increase and may enter and possess the land that the Lord promised on oath to your forefathers. Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. Your clothes did not wear out and your feet did not swell during these forty years. Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the Lord your God disciplines you. Deuteronomy 8:1-5 NIV
Focus on the next to last verse. If God can keep shoes from falling apart and feet from swelling for a whole nation, don’t you think He could cure whatever aches and pains you might experience? I added the whole passage because I want to address the “humble” and “discipline” as sometimes people make these into sacred cows. Humble, does not mean grovel and beg. It means to reach the conclusion that God is your source. As long as man thinks he can go alone, he is not humble. In the same manner, discipline is what we do to train a child. Do we beat them and make them sick or even cut off their limbs? NO! We teach them with words. We teach them how to receive the best in life and avoid the worst. Your HEAVENLY FATHER is a million times MORE loving than an earthly parent. He will not act out of LOVE towards his children.
Hebrews 11? The greatest chapter in the Bible on the power of faith? That is what you are going to use to dispute God’s will and way for us to access all His promises and favor? Well alrighty then, let’s go!
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. Hebrews 11:1-2 NIV
We set the table with what faith is. It is the title deed of our possession, our evidence that God will do His part, IF we do ours. Ours is to believe Him because: without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (Hebrews 11:6 NIV) Notice he REWARDS us, not punish.
And your question about faith can be answered simply by quoting Paul in the previous chapter: But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our message? Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Romans 10:16-17
Lying in bed miserable will not produce faith. Hearing and speaking and meditating on the Word is how faith grows in your spirit, and how you renew your mind to God’s Truth. I could write for hours just on this topic alone, but I must move on and end this.
Now Paul gives numerous examples of people who were saved from global disaster, had a child past child-bearing years, provided prophecies, were obedient to God’s requests, took a whole nation through the sea that then consumed their pursuers, and “conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies.”
And yet you want to focus on the “others” who did not have as wonderful of a testimony. Have you ever thought that maybe that was their choice? That just maybe they were disobedient and that God had made a way of escape as He did with Paul with warnings about what would happen if he went to Jerusalem?
Why would you not want to identify with Enoch? He was in such a perfect relationship with God that he got his own personal rapture! Talk about pleasing God with faith!
But more importantly, these were Old Testament saints he is talking about. You see the difference at the end.
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40 NIV
Jesus came, gave his life, suffered the ENTIRE curse for us, took his blood and placed it on the Eternal Mercy Seat, and sat down next to His Father and My Father. We are in a better place because we are spiritually reborn into God’s Family. We are not servants or even friends. We are God’s children, joint-heirs with Christ, Ambassadors of Jesus. We have the Holy Spirit living inside because we are spiritually reborn! NOTHING is impossible if we believe. ALL POWER has been delegated to Believers to overcome ALL the power of the enemy! Through the name of Jesus we can do anything.
Behold! I have given you authority and power to trample upon serpents and scorpions, and [physical and mental strength and ability] over all the power that the enemy [possesses]; and nothing shall in any way harm you. Luke 10:19 AMP
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. John 14:12 NIV
Dear Friend, what about those statements above is not clear. That is Jesus talking to directly to your spirit. Receive that TRUTH with joy!!!
How dare you mock my Lord and Savior’s will, equating His promises with the fairy godmother or Santa Claus. Take off your religious blinders and receive the GOOD NEWS. Jesus did not come, nor will he receive any glory by us being sick, broke and failures in life. We are charged with glorifying God in our bodies. He wants us well so that we can take His message to a hurting world.
I apologize for the length. This is a passionate subject because too many people told me God does not heal or work miracles. Since I have experienced just the opposite in my life, I will defend my Heavenly Father vigorously against charges of child abuse. And I certainly don’t want to see anyone suffer needlessly, like I did for far too long, or see their faith destroyed by people telling them that God gets glory from their sickness. That has destroyed more faith and chased more people out of the Church than any other lie from the pit of hell.
LOTS of things are not as they seem . . . good and bad.
I try to choose my words fairly carefully most of the time.
I appreciate it when folks seem to notice that.
I have a cleft lip and palate. I believe it is a blessing from God because it made me who I am. How is that different from an illness? My parents didn’t give it to me, God did. To you that would be child abuse, but to me it isn’t.
God CAN and DOES heal, but He also uses illness or disability to teach and correct us. To assume that God will heal you because YOU want to be healed is arrogant and not biblical.
And I REALLY distrust faith healers. I have faith God will heal me if HE chooses to, not because it is MY will. I seek only HIS will not mine.
Repent, receive forgiveness and healing.
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Wow that is so stupid I don’t know where to begin...
Remember, Paul is going to several different places where his native language isn't spoken so him having the gift of languages or tongue would help spread his message.
While it could be argued that Saul, as a Pharisee of the Pharisees had a great education which no doubt included languages but Saul, now Paul, is able to travel all over the place the Holy Spirit lets him go and he is always able to converse with them in their native tongue.
I'm of the opinion that speaking in tongues is akin to a clanging bell.
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
People should also keep in mind, Deut 29:29. The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
This simply means that God and God alone knows the whole plan, we only know what has been revealed. And, for those books that are timelines, it's possible that God hasn't revealed the plan until you get into the book and God gradually reveals what he is allowing us to know.
It's also good to keep in mind what might and I say might have been on God's mind. If he laid out everything in Bible, we don't posses God's brain so it would be worthless to us as our minds can't compare to Gods; God could also have dumbed down the Bible so our human minds could comprehend it but again, there's a problem, dumb it down to much and its meaning is lost; don't dumb it down enough, and our human minds can't comprehend it.
I'm not a Biblical scholar, my understanding of the Bible is the result of me standing on the shoulders of giants who did all the heavy lifting.
If you want a no nonsense Bible study guide, I prefer Les Feldick; he's opened my mind to several parts I was having trouble with.
Although I think he's no longer producing his show, Through The Bible with Les Feldick, he is on reruns all over the place and a more humble and self effacing man you could never encounter.
I’ve seen your work in the UFO kookery threads.
1) If someone doesn’t believe you, you mention how many years you’ve spent studying the subject; an appeal to authority if ever there was one.
2) Then you mention how you are trying to get this UFO bs out in order to save us. While I find it quaint that you think our salvation is in your hands, it is not.
1) Are crop circles real?
1a) Are they created by man?
1b) Are they created by Aliens?
2) Do you believe in UFOs?
2a) Do you believe UFOs are aliens?
3) Let us know, what you really believe.
You first hotshot.
Besides, my beliefs on a wide range of topics have been posted on FR multiple times for over 10 years.
Please pay attention . . . or catch up.
I also have a home page.
So I ask by what logic it would be a requirement for salvation.
Pleasant reply. But I did not write it. That was written by James under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Take your complaint to your Heavenly Father, not me.
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. James 5:14-16 NIV
Note the question in verse 15 - is anyone sick. Meditate on why James would ask that question.
I agree. What I usually hear is that it is proof of being a ‘spirit filled’ believer.
Did it ever occur to you that it may also refer to spiritual sickness? That is why there is the reference to forgiveness of sins.
Also, I don’t have a problem with laying on of hands, my own church does it. But it is a mode of PRAYER not faith healing. You sound like the Christian Scientists (another heretical group btw).
I assume you mean this:
Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
... and as a point of order, it does not say we are not to seek after signs... It says that a wicked generation/people would seek after signs, and not find ANY, except for the sign of Jonas... One could argue the point to say that if you cannot see signs, you should wonder if you are a part of that 'generation' which cannot see anything until they understand the Sign of Jonah... Because there is a common inference which suggests there is a counterpoint to this wicked generation, one which WILL see signs... one which WILL see... No offense meant FRiend - I just see your remark as painting with a very broad brush.
There is great wealth in Matt 12, if one can cast off one's presuppositions and SEE what it says... But then, that is probably enough meat to deserve it's own thread altogether.
While I am not as vociferous about tongues as my dear friend Quix, I DO rise in defense of the Gifts - ALL OF THEM - It seems that the general consensus of the churches in general (since the middle ages) is that anything that is supernatural is magick and is to be avoided. Ergo, any sign, any wonderment, anything extraordinary, is frowned upon as the work of the devil.
But IMHO, those who believe as such stand very close to those who have a form of godliness but deny His power. Where is the power and the proof of YHWH AS GOD without manifestation... without prophecies coming true, without healing and such things? Are we to deny His challenges to us... Where He says 'DO THIS and watch what happens in your life'? That necessitates manifestation.
A big part of that manifestation is the Gifts, AS PROMISED.
Now, I have read over and over on this thread about every sort of charlatan which may purport to have a supernatural calling, and how these MUST prove that all such things are false. I have no idea who Copeland is, or what he stands for, but the premise itself I would deny profoundly. I have witnessed and participated in these Gifts, far away from the glare of media lights, and I know them to be true. If there is one thing that my Pentecostal friends have taught me, it is to live in the expectation of miracles, and from that I have been greatly rewarded in both faith and doctrine (not to mention miracles themselves).
Can these things fall prey to charlatans? certainly so, just as doctrine based, faith based, or liturgically based systems can (and do). Perhaps one could say the consequence in this case is more dire (which I would deny), but if it is, it is only more dire because the truth of it, when found, is so much more powerful. So much more quick and enlivening... Because what is one's faith if one cannot live every moment in expectation?
Again, I am speaking in a greater generality than the topic at hand, but it is a subject which intrinsically includes this topic. Remembering that tongues is but the least of the gifts, not only tongues, but where are the rest? It says specifically that these gifts would follow the believers - if these things are not present and able to be witnessed in one's own life, then I would submit that some fault exists, and it is a big one.
I never said the gifts didn’t exist. My issue is with those who seek after them as a sign of ‘super spirituality’ and hold over others. That itself is a sin.
God chooses which gifts (and not all of them) to which believers for the edification of the Body. I have never seen edification from speaking in tongues just holier than thou-ness.
And you are reading WAY more into that verse than what it says.